The Fourth Shore - Italy 1940 with Il Duce

Yes, but the "western" jews could travel on the regual passenger trains (not in cattle cars), because they are going to emigrate as familys. Not batch lots to an Concentration Camp

Won't regular travel be even less efficient (from the German PoV) than cattle cars? They'll want to be seated and with some baggage too, so less passengers per car.
Of course, this being an escape, many people would adapt to fewer conforts than the usual.

Unless...what was private car ownership like in those areas?
 
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Won't regular travel be even less efficient (from the German PoV) than cattle cars? They'll want to be seated and with some baggage too, so less passengers per car.
Of course, this being an escape, many people would adapt to fewer conforts than the usual.

Unless...what was private car ownership like in those areas?

You right, but we are talking about a policy not practically . When germans set up a standard administrative procedure for dealing with the "jewish problem" it is no longer a item for the top policy makers. Burocrats take over and everything will be set in stone.
 
Given German attitudes at this time, they will dump them at the Italian border at lowest cost/administrative effort ie round up all in an area and send to ghetto , transport group of agreed number out of ghetto to destination, repeat. So it would be cattle trucks and no baggage, all the administrators will care about is bodies so if families get split they will just shrug. Better than OTL as they are not actually trying to kill people but still very bad. Nazi's unfortunately are still Nazi's.
 
You right, but we are talking about a policy not practically . When germans set up a standard administrative procedure for dealing with the "jewish problem" it is no longer a item for the top policy makers. Burocrats take over and everything will be set in stone.

I still don't understand how, in practical terms, southbound transportation is going to help Barbarossa.
 
Interlude
March 22, 1941 – Warsaw, Jewish Ghetto

The tables were set out early in the morning, almost before the break of dawn. Still the Judenrat already had to deploy more police to keep the long lines orderly. The tables remained empty past 8, then 9 and finally at 10 Italians strolled onto the plaza. There were only a dozen or so in uniform but almost twice as many wore obviously expensive suits in the cold morning air. Gradually the Italians settled down drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes, but still not motioning to Jewish guards to open up the tables. Finally at almost 11 the Italians motioned to the policeman to let the crowd come forward.

At the first table a Italian captain looked up at the first in line. “Ah our first customer. “ he began “Let be clear and not to waste time you understand that transport has to be paid for and we have a preference for skilled labor or….” With a soft cough the Jew interrupted the officer. In near flawless Italian he said, “I am a doctor, Captain and I have retained sufficient funds to provide transport for myself and my family.” He held out six stamped documents. The Captain smiled, when he noticed a small sheaf of bills tucked under the papers.



March 24, 1941 – Vatican City, Rome

Eugenio Maria Giuseppe Giovanni Pacelli, more correctly known as the Bishop of Rome, Pope Pius XII sat easily across the desk from his two aids. The Younger, Giovanni Montini, passed a dense folder over to the Pope. Pius studied the information carefully, then quietly removed his thick glasses. He didn’t address Montini, but rather his senior in the office of Secretary of State. “So Pacelli it looks as if there will be another leader of Italy quiet soon. Will that disrupt these transfers?”

Montini, paused only briefly. “Of course I cannot speak for Cardinal Maglione, but all our information seems to show that the Duce will not live out the spring. However he has long lost control of the control of both the party and the state. The new government created this policy, they will continue it. In fact this government has been quite good. Many of our own priests and brothers in Christ have been enrolled in the transfers. But enough remain to shepherd the Church in this crisis. The time tables in the folder are quite ambitious but we believe they will be kept.”

The Pope stood and fingered the large cross he wore on his neck. “It seems cruel to uproot people and move them such a distance.” Montini offered a comment, “The Germans can be a cruel people.” The Pope stopped and stared at Montini, who offered an apology, “I meant of course the Nazis.” The Pope waved his hand in dismissal, “I know cruelty father, I also know beauty and grace. Germany holds a special place in my heart.” He paused “To see them reduced to this.” He took a deep breath, “I shall make a special appeal to our Church both here and abroad. We will provide what support we can for all the displaced.” He stared at Pacelli “I do mean everyone. See to it that Maglione does not adjust the level.”



April 12, 1941 – Asmara, Eretria – Italian East Africa

Governor Frusci ran a hand through his rapidly thinning hair. He looked down at the latest figures. More than a thousand Poles had arrived today. Most were supposed to have been Jews, but he was sure that like the first train there would be a good number of ‘mixed race’ immigrants. He laughed, in some mysterious way a good number of Polish farmers had made it onto the ships. He could imagine the bribes being paid to get out of the General Government and didn’t resent those who took this route. Still it was his responsibility. He looked over his welcoming speech, the original draft in Italian, not the Polish and Yiddish translations attached. He searched down for the critical paragraph, ah there it was



….the Italian setters here can well use your strong backs and stout hearts in turning this colony into a proper outpost of civilization. In the coming days you will all be assigned to a colonist to assist him in making this land flower. Four of your families will work with one settler. In time no doubt we will grant….here he scratched out the phrase ‘in good time shall earn your own freehold’. He smiled that was better. They had to understand that while they started out as serfs the future held a promise for them all.



April 22, 1941 – Athens, Office of the Prime Minster

Koryzis neatly placed the letter down in front of him and then stood up to pace. The Italian offer was interesting. He sighed wondering what Metaxas would have done. Immediately he thought of the King. His majesty was known to favor the English, but he also was a revanchist, the recovery of Rhodes and the rest of the Islands would temp him. Perhaps and open alliance with the Italians would not be so bad. It would protect Greece from the disaster that engulfed Yugoslavia. But Koryzis was sure that the Italians would want more than just a few bases on the mainland. Already the Croats were finding it difficult to say no to the Italians. Still better the Italians than the Germans.
 

hipper

Banned
March 22, 1941 – Warsaw, Jewish Ghetto

The tables were set out early in the morning, almost before the break of dawn. Still the Judenrat already had to deploy more police to keep the long lines orderly. The tables remained empty past 8, then 9 and finally at 10 Italians strolled onto the plaza. There were only a dozen or so in uniform but almost twice as many wore obviously expensive suits in the cold morning air. Gradually the Italians settled down drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes, but still not motioning to Jewish guards to open up the tables. Finally at almost 11 the Italians motioned to the policeman to let the crowd come forward.

At the first table a Italian captain looked up at the first in line. “Ah our first customer. “ he began “Let be clear and not to waste time you understand that transport has to be paid for and we have a preference for skilled labor or….” With a soft cough the Jew interrupted the officer. In near flawless Italian he said, “I am a doctor, Captain and I have retained sufficient funds to provide transport for myself and my family.” He held out six stamped documents. The Captain smiled, when he noticed a small sheaf of bills tucked under the papers.



March 24, 1941 – Vatican City, Rome

Eugenio Maria Giuseppe Giovanni Pacelli, more correctly known as the Bishop of Rome, Pope Pius XII sat easily across the desk from his two aids. The Younger, Giovanni Montini, passed a dense folder over to the Pope. Pius studied the information carefully, then quietly removed his thick glasses. He didn’t address Montini, but rather his senior in the office of Secretary of State. “So Pacelli it looks as if there will be another leader of Italy quiet soon. Will that disrupt these transfers?”

Montini, paused only briefly. “Of course I cannot speak for Cardinal Maglione, but all our information seems to show that the Duce will not live out the spring. However he has long lost control of the control of both the party and the state. The new government created this policy, they will continue it. In fact this government has been quite good. Many of our own priests and brothers in Christ have been enrolled in the transfers. But enough remain to shepherd the Church in this crisis. The time tables in the folder are quite ambitious but we believe they will be kept.”

The Pope stood and fingered the large cross he wore on his neck. “It seems cruel to uproot people and move them such a distance.” Montini offered a comment, “The Germans can be a cruel people.” The Pope stopped and stared at Montini, who offered an apology, “I meant of course the Nazis.” The Pope waved his hand in dismissal, “I know cruelty father, I also know beauty and grace. Germany holds a special place in my heart.” He paused “To see them reduced to this.” He took a deep breath, “I shall make a special appeal to our Church both here and abroad. We will provide what support we can for all the displaced.” He stared at Pacelli “I do mean everyone. See to it that Maglione does not adjust the level.”



April 12, 1941 – Asmara, Eretria – Italian East Africa

Governor Frusci ran a hand through his rapidly thinning hair. He looked down at the latest figures. More than a thousand Poles had arrived today. Most were supposed to have been Jews, but he was sure that like the first train there would be a good number of ‘mixed race’ immigrants. He laughed, in some mysterious way a good number of Polish farmers had made it onto the ships. He could imagine the bribes being paid to get out of the General Government and didn’t resent those who took this route. Still it was his responsibility. He looked over his welcoming speech, the original draft in Italian, not the Polish and Yiddish translations attached. He searched down for the critical paragraph, ah there it was



….the Italian setters here can well use your strong backs and stout hearts in turning this colony into a proper outpost of civilization. In the coming days you will all be assigned to a colonist to assist him in making this land flower. Four of your families will work with one settler. In time no doubt we will grant….here he scratched out the phrase ‘in good time shall earn your own freehold’. He smiled that was better. They had to understand that while they started out as serfs the future held a promise for them all.



April 22, 1941 – Athens, Office of the Prime Minster

Koryzis neatly placed the letter down in front of him and then stood up to pace. The Italian offer was interesting. He sighed wondering what Metaxas would have done. Immediately he thought of the King. His majesty was known to favor the English, but he also was a revanchist, the recovery of Rhodes and the rest of the Islands would temp him. Perhaps and open alliance with the Italians would not be so bad. It would protect Greece from the disaster that engulfed Yugoslavia. But Koryzis was sure that the Italians would want more than just a few bases on the mainland. Already the Croats were finding it difficult to say no to the Italians. Still better the Italians than the Germans.


Don’t you think some of the new colonists might want to get off while transiting the Suez Canal?
I can imagine that the ʾIrgun Ha-Tzvaʾī Ha-Leūmī b-Ērētz Yiśrāʾel, might do everything in its power to give them the opportunity to get off while in transit.

Regards

Hipper
 
Don’t you think some of the new colonists might want to get off while transiting the Suez Canal?
I can imagine that the ʾIrgun Ha-Tzvaʾī Ha-Leūmī b-Ērētz Yiśrāʾel, might do everything in its power to give them the opportunity to get off while in transit.

To stay in Egypt? Otherwise, how do you see them traversing the Sinai peninsula in significant numbers?
 

hipper

Banned
To stay in Egypt? Otherwise, how do you see them traversing the Sinai peninsula in significant numbers?

Well would you prefer to be a slave in Ethiopia, a refugee in Egypt, or a settler in Israel. And once the polish Jews were in Egypt misterious forces would transport them to Israel. ( the Hagana would hire trucks)

But really how would the Italians transport their slaves through the Suez Canal.
 

hipper

Banned
Smugglers, it wouldn't be impossible. A few extra thousands jews will destabilize Palestine. It's already to a breaking point.

By 1940 the Arab Revolt has been crushed quite comprehensively. Amin al-Husayn is in exile in Germany. Extra Jewish immigration will not affect the politics in the Mandate. After the war it’s a different story.
 
But really how would the Italians transport their slaves through the Suez Canal.

I think indentured servants would be a better definition. And I suppose the merchant marine (not seized without the war) could be adapted to the task.
No idea about the numbers though.

In any case, in a similar situation there's bound to be more refugees than maritime transport capacity, so I doubt this would affect the scheme that much.
Plus, we are talking about whole families here: single men could attempt a dangerous crossing, but would they risk the lives of children and elders?
 
To stay in Egypt? Otherwise, how do you see them traversing the Sinai peninsula in significant numbers?
It isn't a serious remark, but when I read this, all I could think of was, " With a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night," of course.
Back to the real ATL then. Sorry to distract.
 
Rommel is with Army Group North? God help Leningrad

As awful as serfdom is... it beats the hell out of the gas chambers. Plus, at least for the Jews, well, Israel is en route...
 

marathag

Banned
Rommel is with Army Group North? God help Leningrad

His disdain for logistics would doom his men, unless they get lucky, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Velikiye_Luki
and they are only encircled.
He just doesn't bring that much to the party
corps_dak.gif

And most important, being under von Leeb, couldn't ignore orders from OKW, and couldn't play the games he did between them and Comando Supremo to do what he wanted
 
Well would you prefer to be a slave in Ethiopia, a refugee in Egypt, or a settler in Israel. And once the polish Jews were in Egypt misterious forces would transport them to Israel. ( the Hagana would hire trucks)

But really how would the Italians transport their slaves through the Suez Canal.

Probably by ship, but flying carpet it's a possibility; about the Hagana, while getting in Israel or Egypt a certain numbers of Jew it's certain a possibility, frankly i doubt that the ship used will be of the prison type or there will be massive surveillance...after all, people have fought and bribed to be on that ships (with their family) because even being an indentured servant for sometime in Ethiopia beat remaining in Nazi occupied Europe (and the italian authority had interest in keep you alive and functional unlike the Germans).
If you though about mass escape and the use of force...well, i expect that after the first 'incident' the OVRA will deliver to the Jew leaderships the Hagana agents they will capture, one piece at the time till it's clear how unwise his mess with them, or worse deciding that the entire effort is a waste of time, resource and too problematic and scrap the plan leaving millions to the tender attention of the Nazi, so nice work breaking it hero.
Plus i doubt that the British authorities will be extremely happy in having a significant influx of jew refugee in Palestine, probably the contrary...realistically, it's much more probable that the various jews communities will help the plan as it mean getting a lot of people out of Nazi hand.

In any case, in a similar situation there's bound to be more refugees than maritime transport capacity, so I doubt this would affect the scheme that much.

The Marina Mercantile (Merchant Marine) will be also needed to transport italian colonist in Libya and the normal work of transporting material to and from Italy; plus it's probable that many of her vessel will be coopted by the Wallies and the neutrals to transport material; for this reason the numbers of east europe refugee to arrive in Abyssinia will be limited (one must also keep in mind that unlike the Nazi, the italian goverments want that the refugee arrive alive at destination)
 

hipper

Banned
Probably by ship, but flying carpet it's a possibility; about the Hagana, while getting in Israel or Egypt a certain numbers of Jew it's certain a possibility, frankly i doubt that the ship used will be of the prison type or there will be massive surveillance...after all, people have fought and bribed to be on that ships (with their family) because even being an indentured servant for sometime in Ethiopia beat remaining in Nazi occupied Europe (and the italian authority had interest in keep you alive and functional unlike the Germans).
If you though about mass escape and the use of force...well, i expect that after the first 'incident' the OVRA will deliver to the Jew leaderships the Hagana agents they will capture, one piece at the time till it's clear how unwise his mess with them, or worse deciding that the entire effort is a waste of time, resource and too problematic and scrap the plan leaving millions to the tender attention of the Nazi, so nice work breaking it hero.
Plus i doubt that the British authorities will be extremely happy in having a significant influx of jew refugee in Palestine, probably the contrary...realistically, it's much more probable that the various jews communities will help the plan as it mean getting a lot of people out of Nazi hand.



The Marina Mercantile (Merchant Marine) will be also needed to transport italian colonist in Libya and the normal work of transporting material to and from Italy; plus it's probable that many of her vessel will be coopted by the Wallies and the neutrals to transport material; for this reason the numbers of east europe refugee to arrive in Abyssinia will be limited (one must also keep in mind that unlike the Nazi, the italian goverments want that the refugee arrive alive at destination)

Sorry I’m not making myself clear if the Jewish and polish refugees are passengers what’s to stop them getting off the ship in Suez as they pass through the Canal. Or just jumping over the side. I suspect that Libya would be the place where most of the new settlers would end up..
 
Sorry I’m not making myself clear if the Jewish and polish refugees are passengers what’s to stop them getting off the ship in Suez as they pass through the Canal. Or just jumping over the side. I suspect that Libya would be the place where most of the new settlers would end up..

Because jumping from a ship it's not like in the movie and it's highly dangerous (expecially for people not young or too young), any ships will just pass through Suez and not stop it; Libya it's for italian (italian jews included) settler
 

hipper

Banned
Because jumping from a ship it's not like in the movie and it's highly dangerous (expecially for people not young or too young), any ships will just pass through Suez and not stop it; Libya it's for italian (italian jews included) settler

Ships going through Suez operate in convoy passing up and down the canal alternately. A ship can’t just turn up and sail through, you have to wait for the appropriate Convoy. also boats have to pick up a pilot to transit and he canal. There will be the inevitable British Inspection, After all the ship might be carrying letters from Germany. More practically the British were worried about Italian attempts to block the canal as the first move in a war. There will be plenty if opportunities for passengers to leave unless the Italian crew use force to prevent this. Which brings a new set of problems.

As to escaping over the side, you need to read a good memoir of traveling through the canal in the 1930’s there was constant trade from small boats selling Souveneers to liner passengers the transaction was enabled by ropes on the side of the ship. Lots of opportunity to leave the ship unofficially in some comfort.

Do you think the Italians will be selecting many old people to be indentured servants in Africa?
 
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