Soviet Victory in the Cold War: Cultural Change.

[WotanArgead]

There are many timelines dedicated to the victory of the Reds in the Cold War. All of them assess the fate of the world and humanity in different ways, but they all missed an important part of people's lives - culture (in the broadest sense of the word). In fact, many omit the "soul" of a similar world, and after all, such changes necessarily had to reflect on what we read and what we are looking at. Of course, depending on the variant of victory, different results are possible. Nevertheless, the following conclusions can be blown out.
1) Regionality - in the Soviet Union there has never been a "total, all-consuming" mass culture in the United States. This means that the products of culture will be focused primarily on the local viewer.
2) Politicization - no comment.
Cultural consequences of the disintegration of the USA are interesting ...

Does anyone else have thoughts?

 

[James G]

Well... the big and wide-ranging counter-culture in the West is dead. Conformity gets a big boost.
I can't think of anything else non-rantable!

 

[WotanArgead]

Well... the big and wide-ranging counter-culture in the West is dead. Conformity gets a big boost.
I can't think of anything else non-rantable!

I have already considered this topic - here it is worth considering the following points. The revolution in Western countries can occur with the support of counterculture and new social movements. At the same time, the crisis can be caused by economic crises, and such conditions should be spent on food, not drugs. Also, there may be different standards in different countries, and these directions will not be developed (even if they are democratic and progressive) - this means that in the USSR or the GDR receiver one can hear something like "Hippies are guys with long hair ? "
It is interesting - and what would have happened if an anti-war demonstration was shot during the "Summer of Love".

PS - by the way. I read an article where Soviet citizens were compared to Hippies.

 

[Berkeley2017]

A disintegration of the USA isn't really necessary for the Soviets to "win" the cold war. All you really need is for NATO to break up and the US influence around the globe to wane dramatically, and replaced by Soviet influence. Also a Soviet union that "wins" the cold war would almost certainly have to open up and embrace capitalism like China did OTL, since a pure Communist system is unlikely to last into the 21st century, and a capitalist USSR has more opportunities to project soft power around the globe.

 

[WotanArgead]

A disintegration of the USA isn't really necessary for the Soviets to "win" the cold war. All you really need is for NATO to break up and the US influence around the globe to wane dramatically, and replaced by Soviet influence. Also a Soviet union that "wins" the cold war would almost certainly have to open up and embrace capitalism like China did OTL, since a pure Communist system is unlikely to last into the 21st century, and a capitalist USSR has more opportunities to project soft power around the globe.

As for the disintegration, you are right - it really is absolutely not necessary. But with the "Chinese version" I disagree. Firstly, this is tantamount to winning the United States. No matter what flags - the essence of this does not change, to the same there were periods when the States and Europe were also shaking - it's not just the economy. Secondly, the market is not the only way to improve the economy.

And yet we must return to the discussion of cultural issues.

 

[WotanArgead]

How do you think how much the mosaic will be spread?

 

[Phalamus]

1) Regionality - in the Soviet Union there has never been a "total, all-consuming" mass culture in the United States. This means that the products of culture will be focused primarily on the local viewer.

I'm no expert, but I think there's a fair chance mass culture would eventually arise in a more developed and cosmopolitan Soviet Union. I see the massification of culture in the west as being mostly the result of social and economic factors (high standard of living, urbanisation, etc.) and not so much of preexisting cultural factors. Of course, there's the fact that the whole of the US speaks English as a first language while in the Soviet Union that is not the case, so obvisously the USSR is bound to allways have a greater degree of regionality. However, I also think its fair to say that a victory in the cold war would have cemented an united Soviet identity at the expense of regional ones, so that's one more thing in favour of massification.

Also, there's no way cultural regionality won't be diminished by the internet.

2) Politicization - no comment.

I think it's important that we have an idea of how much cultural freedom governments give their peoples ITTL. Some Soviet victory TLs have the USSR democratize in some form, and that would mean degree of freedom similar to the west, but there also some in which they remain authoritarian.

Anyway, I think a victory in a cold war (which ITTL would be seen as proof of the superiority of the communist system and serve to greatly discredit reactionaries) makes the need to control culture a lot less pronounced. If communism is at least as safe as capitalism is IOTL I think we can take for granted at least a Khrushchev-era level of freedoms.

Cultural consequences of the disintegration of the USA are interesting ...

The United States were a lot more culturally cohesive than the Soviet Union ever was, and they have a long history of federalism. I think it would be very hard to have it desintegrate (you would need an event of truly apocalyptic proportions in order for that to happen).

I think that a united socialist USA is much more likely in the event of a Soviet victory.

The revolution in Western countries can occur with the support of counterculture and new social movements.

There was a huge cultural rift between the Eastern Bloc and the American New Left. If revolution in America really comes from the hippies, the culture of new socialist america will certainly be very different from that of the Soviet Union.

How do you think how much the mosaic will be spread?

Well, they're pretty. I can totally see them becoming a thing in western Europe, though maybe not so much in America and Britain (it doesn't really fit them).


Now, regarding pop culture, here are the two things that come to my mind:

• As I understand it, early Russian rock drew a lot of influence from soviet-era "bards". I'd imagine music like that becoming internationally popular.
• The eastern bloc had a fairly developed tradition of science-fiction. In the scenario of a soviet victory in the cold war, I could see Stanislaw Lem and the Strugatsky brothers being seen as the most influential writers instead of Heinlein, Azimov and Clarke.

That said, both of these pop culture tendencies are likely to receive a lot of western influence anyway I think...

 

[WotanArgead]

Now that's interesting!

I'm no expert, but I think there's a fair chance mass culture would eventually arise in a more developed and cosmopolitan Soviet Union. I see the massification of culture in the west as being mostly the result of social and economic factors (high standard of living, urbanisation, etc.) and not so much of preexisting cultural factors. Of course, there's the fact that the whole of the US speaks English as a first language while in the Soviet Union that is not the case, so obvisously the USSR is bound to allways have a greater degree of regionality. However, I also think its fair to say that a victory in the cold war would have cemented an united Soviet identity at the expense of regional ones, so that's one more thing in favour of massification.

Well .. that's what happened. Between townspeople from different republics there was much in common. Another thing is that the very Soviet style of "production of culture" is very different from the American one - for example, the director received a salary from the state, few people worried about fees. To the same Soviet films are not export oriented.

I think it's important that we have an idea of how much cultural freedom governments give their peoples ITTL. Some Soviet victory TLs have the USSR democratize in some form, and that would mean degree of freedom similar to the west, but there also some in which they remain authoritarian.
Anyway, I think a victory in a cold war (which ITTL would be seen as proof of the superiority of the communist system and serve to greatly discredit reactionaries) makes the need to control culture a lot less pronounced. If communism is at least as safe as capitalism is IOTL I think we can take for granted at least a Khrushchev-era level of freedoms.

Honestly - I added this item because I forgot what I wanted to write. Although in children's cartoons even more will be expressed moralizing.

The United States were a lot more culturally cohesive than the Soviet Union ever was, and they have a long history of federalism. I think it would be very hard to have it desintegrate (you would need an event of truly apocalyptic proportions in order for that to happen).
I think that a united socialist USA is much more likely in the event of a Soviet victory.

I think you're right. Although according to this source in the 70s the American economy was ... in the not best place.

There was a huge cultural rift between the Eastern Bloc and the American New Left. If revolution in America really comes from the hippies, the culture of new socialist america will certainly be very different from that of the Soviet Union.

The socialist countries are very different in this respect - for example in the GDR nudism has flourished and were legalized homosexual relationships. In fact, the year 68 was a bifurcation - either "Socialism with a human face" or "Capitalism with a human face."
In the reverse situation, the Trotskyites of Shekhtman and the "new left" may decide that it is better to deal with the Russians. Actually the topic of dissidents in the US and the USSR can be disassembled for a long time.

Well, they're pretty. I can totally see them becoming a thing in western Europe, though maybe not so much in America and Britain (it doesn't really fit them).

Why?

• The eastern bloc had a fairly developed tradition of science-fiction. In the scenario of a soviet victory in the cold war, I could see Stanislaw Lem and the Strugatsky brothers being seen as the most influential writers instead of Heinlein, Azimov and Clarke.

This is my theme - the most influential Soviet science fiction writer is Ivan Efremov. He divided all the science fiction into "before" and "after". There are two variants of oriental fantasy: "naive" (optimism, characters with high moral qualities, development of cosmic themes) and "philosophical" (description of the inner world of the character and moral problems). Aliens visiting earth (no invasions, all problems were only misunderstandings; there was the thesis: if a society is progressive enough to space-travel, they have to be communist), interpersonal problems in extreme situations, and some authors started to use satire and irony.

 

[WotanArgead]

• As I understand it, early Russian rock drew a lot of influence from soviet-era "bards". I'd imagine music like that becoming internationally popular.

Is there something similar to this?

 

[Deleted member 82792]

The Soviets will probably try to reach out to African-Americans and other 'oppressed' minority groups. Any anti-racism Soviet propaganda anyone?

 

[KuboCaskett]

My good guess is that culture in a Soviet Victory in the Cold War would reflect that of the Soviets, provided if they were under Soviet influence to a degree; for one, capitalism would be seen as a failure and there would certainly be more corrupt CEO ala Mr. Burns, Lord Business, and Dick Jones and/or greedy folks like Sykes and Mr. Lickboot in popular culture only that they would be a blatant representation of decadent capitalism and/or the USA and would always be the villains and that the upper class people would be demonized, assuming some good apples be damned.

That and of course, more vodka and "socialist realism" art stuff around the world; that and some Kerensky-esque epics in movie theaters.

 

[John Dusk]

There are many timelines dedicated to the victory of the Reds in the Cold War.

Define victory.

 

[WotanArgead]

The Soviets will probably try to reach out to African-Americans and other 'oppressed' minority groups. Any anti-racism Soviet propaganda anyone?

Well .... The USSR really supported the leaders of the African-American movement. True Soviet animation has a tendency to hyperbole.

 

[WotanArgead]

Define victory.

Distribution of the winner's social system. Political domination.

 

[WotanArgead]

My good guess is that culture in a Soviet Victory in the Cold War would reflect that of the Soviets, provided if they were under Soviet influence to a degree; for one, capitalism would be seen as a failure and there would certainly be more corrupt CEO ala Mr. Burns, Lord Business, and Dick Jones and/or greedy folks like Sykes and Mr. Lickboot in popular culture only that they would be a blatant representation of decadent capitalism and/or the USA and would always be the villains and that the upper class people would be demonized, assuming some good apples be damned.

That and of course, more vodka and "socialist realism" art stuff around the world; that and some Kerensky-esque epics in movie theaters.

What about vodka did not understand what you mean.
It is interesting to change the American culture - the transition of the center from the individual to the movement of the masses.

 

[WotanArgead]

It is interesting - will the "hunt for the Red Witches" announce an anti-Semitic company (by analogy with the "struggle with arrogant cosmolithism")?

Investigating the national composition of repressed in the US during the McCarthy period of well-known figures of science and culture, it is easy to see that a significant part, if not most of these people, were Jews by nationality.

While in the West, and above all in the United States, local media propaganda represented the "business of doctors" and the dissolution of the "EAK" as persecution of Jews, the USSR at the same time condemned the anti-Semitic campaign in America against the Rosenbergs and their relatives.

 

[Phalamus]

This is my theme - the most influential Soviet science fiction writer is Ivan Efremov. He divided all the science fiction into "before" and "after". There are two variants of oriental fantasy: "naive" (optimism, characters with high moral qualities, development of cosmic themes) and "philosophical" (description of the inner world of the character and moral problems). Aliens visiting earth (no invasions, all problems were only misunderstandings; there was the thesis: if a society is progressive enough to space-travel, they have to be communist), interpersonal problems in extreme situations, and some authors started to use satire and irony.

Very interesting. So, we can expect a lot of utopian sci-fi, philosophical thrillers and witty satires (probably cricticizing bureaucracy and stuff like that).

I wonder if a Soviet version of the cyberpunk movement is possible. Of course, they could just take normal cyberpunk and use it to criticize capitalism, but people would lose interest in that after a while because very few people would be living under capitalism at the present. I wonder if, in a scenario where there's enough freedom of expression after a soviet victory, someone could posit a bleak future (one of high-tech and low-life) developing out of communism the same way as Gibson pictured cyberpunk's futuristic corporate dystopia emerging out of capitalism. Maybe bureaucracy could serve as a substitute for corporations in TTL's soviet cyberpunk. The main thesis of the movement would be that, despite all technological developments that were going on, the world wouldn't reach communism if it continued in its current course. Instead, the future wpuld be dominated by corrupt bureaucrats and political leader that would enrich themselves at the cost of the proletariat. It would serve as the antidote to optimistic early soviet sci-fi just as OTL's cyberpunk served to the golden-age American sci-fi.

Now, of it would take a lot of liberalisation for this to actually happen....

Also, I'm wondering about super-heroes. Did the Soviet Union have any of those?

The Soviets will probably try to reach out to African-Americans and other 'oppressed' minority groups. Any anti-racism Soviet propaganda anyone?

So, could we see some African-American influences making their way into Soviet culture in this scenario? I think I read somewhere that jazz had a minor boom in the USSR during the 60s. This is interesting because jazz is in the base of most American popular music genres. I wonder what genres it would give birth to under a predominantly soviet cultural environment...

Also, could we see soviet hip-hop or something?

 

[DemonicToaster]

I just did a quick check online for Soviet comics. Didn't happen until the final years going by one answer.

And from what someone posted they said it had more to due with the dislike for comics. They preferred it in books like fantasy and sci-fi. Which is probably why when it comes to sci-fi or anything it's in book form.

 

[WotanArgead]

Very interesting. So, we can expect a lot of utopian sci-fi, philosophical thrillers and witty satires (probably cricticizing bureaucracy and stuff like that).

I wonder if a Soviet version of the cyberpunk movement is possible. Of course, they could just take normal cyberpunk and use it to criticize capitalism, but people would lose interest in that after a while because very few people would be living under capitalism at the present. I wonder if, in a scenario where there's enough freedom of expression after a soviet victory, someone could posit a bleak future (one of high-tech and low-life) developing out of communism the same way as Gibson pictured cyberpunk's futuristic corporate dystopia emerging out of capitalism. Maybe bureaucracy could serve as a substitute for corporations in TTL's soviet cyberpunk. The main thesis of the movement would be that, despite all technological developments that were going on, the world wouldn't reach communism if it continued in its current course. Instead, the future wpuld be dominated by corrupt bureaucrats and political leader that would enrich themselves at the cost of the proletariat. It would serve as the antidote to optimistic early soviet sci-fi just as OTL's cyberpunk served to the golden-age American sci-fi.

Now, of it would take a lot of liberalisation for this to actually happen....

I actually thought of saving the Soviet economy - on the one hand, use the economic ideas of Kaletsky (the workers themselves are engaged in the work process, the state regulates prices), and the creation of electoral planning and control systems (OGAS). As a result, bureaucrats should become smaller, although probably in other areas you can contact the office and paper red tape. And not all countries will switch to half-hearted self-management (I planned that the UK would go over to socialism through the Labor government and cadarism). And the theme of the fact that the company will be controlled by the computer is also frightening. Only one but - the classic hero of cyberpunk is a nihilist, Soviet characters usually have a moral position (or get in the course of the narrative).

 

[WotanArgead]

So, could we see some African-American influences making their way into Soviet culture in this scenario? I think I read somewhere that jazz had a minor boom in the USSR during the 60s. This is interesting because jazz is in the base of most American popular music genres. I wonder what genres it would give birth to under a predominantly soviet cultural environment...

Also, could we see soviet hip-hop or something?

Soviet jazz has been actively developed since the 1920s and enjoyed great popularity. In the 40-ies the development was interrupted due to the struggle with "devotion to the West." After the death of Stalin, the genre got a second wind. He became one of the sources of Soviet music (together with French chanson and classical music). The conditions of victory and democratization become fаvorable.
With rap out an interesting story - about the musical phenomenon of the Soviet press responded positively, as "music protest of Negro population" should take into account that while in full swing "Perestroika". As for the development of the scene .... in America, probably only the slack will change the image and go away from the criminal subject, in the USSR, rap will not develop - there is no one to execute it (the birth of Russian rap is associated with a drop in the level of disinfection and activity of crime, to the same Russian rap choice Shit, ak that Russian rap is unnecessary (although I do not like the principle of rap)), in the GDR a special situation is that to become a professional musician you need to get a license, and even if you exclude party control, you still showed a high demand for mastery and musical erudition as well as rap is just a bit and the text, it will be blocked.