Sixes and Snake eyes Rommel's luck in an alternate 1942 desert war
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was interesting to play COD vanguard today and be an australian infantryman at the siege of Tobruk and 2nd battle of Alamein, if one could get over the story being cartoony, weapons being nonsensical and the play control on ps5 being clunky
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Chapter 23
6-15-42 23:59hrs Alexandria, Egypt, Panzer Army Africa Permanent Command Post; damaged former RN Fleet HQ building, Field Marshal Irwin Rommel Commander Panzer Army Africa, Oberst Siegfried Westphal C chief of PAA operations, Erhard Raus Commander 15th Panzer Division, Major Alfred Seebohme commander 621st Radio Interception company, chief of PAA special communications; hosting Reichsmarshal Herman Goring and Foreign Minister Joachim Von Ribbentrop and Italian Counterparts
Rommel slept, hard, harder than he had slept at any point since he reached 16 months ago. He slept the deep sleep of a soldier finishing a long mission, his amazing dash from Gazala to the Nile in a matter of 3 weeks was something that outshined anything the heer had done to date in France or Russia, in terms of ground covered from the enemy. Rommel had tried at several points during that spring to sleep, carefully noting that Fellers was reporting that excessively long periods on duty was causing poor decision making on the part of British command, but the challenges of the drive, and his overwhelming need to force his will on his formations to reach Alexandria denied him many opportunities to sleep, even if he saw so much wisdom in general Fellers opinions.
Westphal had knocked on the door to his quarters several times as the Field Marshal had slept 14 hours, he had been ordered by Marshal Kesselring to wake Rommel and give him a clean dress uniform which had been located so that he could host the high ranking government dignitaries. When Rommel had finally answered Westphal was shocked at how shaky and disheveled his commander appeared and inquired if his commander was ill
I'm tired Siegfried, war in the desert is hard, even harder than my days in the mountains and forests in the last war; I was younger then, younger than you, I could bounce back. I dreamed last night, I was a Oberleutant again in the Vosages, when I was wounded so badly, shot right here in my leg with a French battle rifle at 30 meters (pointing to his left thigh); I was knocked silly, passed out left for dead in no mans land; recovered by German medics in the dark and dragged into a field hospital where my leg was repaired, and I was back at it soon. I've not been shot or climbed any mountains here, but I'm tired, tired like an old man, when you woke me, I felt those old wounds in my leg and my arm and my shin from the last war, I am tired like my most marched out regiments. Every decision the last month has been life or death for us and our army, I wonder if Auchinlek or Fellers bones hurt like mine this morning
Westphal was concerned, he had been concerned, he had been concerned for two weeks even as Rommel had off and on tried to sleep. The Marshal's skin and eyes had a tinge of yellow to them, and as a matter of course he had only taken the same rations as the panzer troopers and the motorized infantry of the DAK, which had been ok two weeks ago as they feasted on British stocks taken from the booty at El Adem and Gambut, but as the army had surged forward away from those ever dwindling stocks, the quality and quantity of the food and water reaching the front had declined significantly which had gone hand in hand with Rommel appearing to lose weight and look ill
The DAK operations chief told Rommel he still had time before the government ministers would arrive, as it was a still a long drive from El Dabbah to Alexandria. He offered to take Rommel to the sea at the extreme north tip of the city at Ras al Teen that he might refresh himself. The chief of the Panzer army relented on the condition that Westphal pick 3 of the most deserving platoon commanders to accompany them, one from each of the DAK's core divisions
This outing did not have the complete effect Westphal had hoped for, Rommel did dunk himself into the sea, and washed off significant layers of filth, brought on by his frequent refusals to ride in the Mammouth car and instead sit upon the back of Lilli 3 from Raus division; as he had done in much of Libya; the dirt and sand pounded into the field Marshal's skin had actually been obscuring how yellow his skin actually was, and the layers of grime had given the illusion that he hadn't become 12 or even 15 kilos underweight, but in a swimming costume, cleansed of his dirt, he looked like he needed to be hospitalized for a month immediately
Kesselring's chief of staff (Westphal, no relation) was practically smoldering when he barged in on Rommel in advance of his chief and the government ministers arrival to Alexandria. Rommel would look poor in newsreel and propaganda photos which where sure to be taken, thankfully he had brought forward the film crew who went about smothering Field Marshal Rommel in make ups to make him somewhat presentable
The meeting itself was interesting. Goring was all bombast as he always was, extolling his transport and combat air squadrons, even Ramcke's troops, Rommel let him have that, for all the Luftwaffe's short comings, Kesselring had worked miracles during the campaign, reinforcements arrived when needed an the tactical bombers and fighters had given their all above Gazala and Toburk and greatly contributed to the army's victory. With Goring more formally and forcefully advocating for support for the PAA in the high circles of the axis, Rommel was content to coddle him, as much as Goring was content to bask in the glow of victory; both men put their previous stormy confrontations on the back burner for now.
Rommel had a far more enjoyable experience with the foreign minister. They had extensively connected during Rommel's time as chief of Hitler's personal security battalion. Ribbentrop had served as a junior officer in the last war in the Hussars and served honorably. His son, not much older than Manfred Rommel had enlisted as a buck private in the SS battalion Das Reich and won medals in France for his bravery and continued on to win additional medals as a junior officer on the eastern front. Rommel had thought because of his own and his son's service that the foreign minister was the most invested in the plights and glories of the army in the field of the government ministers.
The foreign minister and his underlings and Italian counterparts had their work cut out for them. Farouk's current stance of wanting all Europeans to leave Egypt was not workable, but he was known to be an Italophile and had written to Hitler last year showing an interest in bringing Egypt as a full throated member of the axis. Emmisaries from the King where in contact with members of Kleeman's staff, Kleeman had two arabic speaking staff officers, so Rommel was content for now to let them run point on establishing relations with the Egyptian government, army and public. The emmisaries did however say that the Egyptian army and public, so long as the PAA would behave honorably would not resist them extending their front along the left bank of the nile, but would not accept their entry into Cairo itself, at least until such time as the British might agree to withdraw out of the country in an a mutual arrangement of ending war fighting in Egypt.
Rommel had looked at maps of Egypt, prepared by his commando supremo coordination officer. Establishing a front along the west bank of the Nile was attractive in a number of ways, as it represented a defensible front on paper and would put the PAA into contact with large parts of the (hopefully) friendly Egyptian civilian population, who could be put to work to provide a lot of soft support to the army. The problems, among many Rommel considered with such a plan, was the immense difficulty of supplying troops along such a long, in the face of his open supply crisis, and that a front like that was beyond the power of his 10 paper divisions, which at best had the field strength of 6. This is where his and Kesselring's lobbying to Goring/Ribbentrop would have to come in, the PAA would have to grow, not just be reinforced, and a realistic way to supply them would have to be found. Rommel felt he would need another 2 tank and 5 motorized infantry divisions of good strength to fight the war on such a front, essentially doubling the size of his army, the thought of wrangling that out of Rome or Berlin would make the most politically favored officer's stomach turn in knots, Rommel and Kesselring had to crawl over broken glass to obtain regiments from the OKW, getting two corps out of them and supplying them for offensive warfare was something that would be laughed out of the room and he knew it
The other option was to keep his army highly concentrated in the north and such as they might obtain bridging equipment keep driving east towards to Port Said and the Suez Canal, leaving some of his battered Italian infantry divisions to screen against attacks from the south. Reaching the Suez Canal was always the strategic objective in Rommel's mind, and he felt that if he could capture and establish a bridgehead on the other side, that the British would be forced to abandon Cyprus, and surrender all sea control in the eastern Med to the Italian navy, which would loosen up resistance to his supply convoys, additionally he felt this offered the best combined pressure with troops which would be hopefully marching south from the soon to be launched case blue operation in southern Russia; leaving Auchinlek to rot to his south was attractive as it was known from the final decrypts they had gotten from Fellers that GHQ had emptied it's divisions out of Iraq and Persia and elsewhere to reinvigorate the 8th army, and that once Rommel could reach the canal his only enemy would be the sand, not British tanks and motorized infantry. He felt he could run such a campaign needing only 3 more infantry divisions in support to help screen his army from the south, the waterways of the nile would do the rest; that could be pulled from the remaining reserves being held for Herkules, if they could be deployed and supplied without straining the armies in Russia, and his existing divisions would need to be rebuilt to their May 25th strength; this was still a huge ask, but it was not two fresh mobile corps. Hitler would like it, Mussolini would hate it, Rommel already knew. Mussolini would want the entirety of Egypt, his glorious victory parade on the white horse he had brought in to Tobruk for his delayed victory parade; he wanted the jewel of the Nile; Rommel could care less, he wanted to win the war, and now only 300km from his final objective, he had even less interest in taking useless tracks of sand to the south. He felt at best case if Rome and Berlin gave him maximum support and the Egyptian civilian population provided soft support that he could be ready for this drive, no he would have be ready by 1st week in August, before Fellers fresh divisions would be online and ready for combat
That's what the trip home was for, not just to see Frau Rommel, but to, in lock step with Goring, to ask Mussolini and Hitler for the additional support the army would need to finish it's campaign in Egypt and to lean on the foreign ministries to make whatever concessions where humanly needed to assure compliance or better yet outright aide from the Egyptians
6-15-42 23:59hrs Alexandria, Egypt, Panzer Army Africa Permanent Command Post; damaged former RN Fleet HQ building, Field Marshal Irwin Rommel Commander Panzer Army Africa, Oberst Siegfried Westphal C chief of PAA operations, Erhard Raus Commander 15th Panzer Division, Major Alfred Seebohme commander 621st Radio Interception company, chief of PAA special communications; hosting Reichsmarshal Herman Goring and Foreign Minister Joachim Von Ribbentrop and Italian Counterparts
Rommel slept, hard, harder than he had slept at any point since he reached 16 months ago. He slept the deep sleep of a soldier finishing a long mission, his amazing dash from Gazala to the Nile in a matter of 3 weeks was something that outshined anything the heer had done to date in France or Russia, in terms of ground covered from the enemy. Rommel had tried at several points during that spring to sleep, carefully noting that Fellers was reporting that excessively long periods on duty was causing poor decision making on the part of British command, but the challenges of the drive, and his overwhelming need to force his will on his formations to reach Alexandria denied him many opportunities to sleep, even if he saw so much wisdom in general Fellers opinions.
Westphal had knocked on the door to his quarters several times as the Field Marshal had slept 14 hours, he had been ordered by Marshal Kesselring to wake Rommel and give him a clean dress uniform which had been located so that he could host the high ranking government dignitaries. When Rommel had finally answered Westphal was shocked at how shaky and disheveled his commander appeared and inquired if his commander was ill
I'm tired Siegfried, war in the desert is hard, even harder than my days in the mountains and forests in the last war; I was younger then, younger than you, I could bounce back. I dreamed last night, I was a Oberleutant again in the Vosages, when I was wounded so badly, shot right here in my leg with a French battle rifle at 30 meters (pointing to his left thigh); I was knocked silly, passed out left for dead in no mans land; recovered by German medics in the dark and dragged into a field hospital where my leg was repaired, and I was back at it soon. I've not been shot or climbed any mountains here, but I'm tired, tired like an old man, when you woke me, I felt those old wounds in my leg and my arm and my shin from the last war, I am tired like my most marched out regiments. Every decision the last month has been life or death for us and our army, I wonder if Auchinlek or Fellers bones hurt like mine this morning
Westphal was concerned, he had been concerned, he had been concerned for two weeks even as Rommel had off and on tried to sleep. The Marshal's skin and eyes had a tinge of yellow to them, and as a matter of course he had only taken the same rations as the panzer troopers and the motorized infantry of the DAK, which had been ok two weeks ago as they feasted on British stocks taken from the booty at El Adem and Gambut, but as the army had surged forward away from those ever dwindling stocks, the quality and quantity of the food and water reaching the front had declined significantly which had gone hand in hand with Rommel appearing to lose weight and look ill
The DAK operations chief told Rommel he still had time before the government ministers would arrive, as it was a still a long drive from El Dabbah to Alexandria. He offered to take Rommel to the sea at the extreme north tip of the city at Ras al Teen that he might refresh himself. The chief of the Panzer army relented on the condition that Westphal pick 3 of the most deserving platoon commanders to accompany them, one from each of the DAK's core divisions
This outing did not have the complete effect Westphal had hoped for, Rommel did dunk himself into the sea, and washed off significant layers of filth, brought on by his frequent refusals to ride in the Mammouth car and instead sit upon the back of Lilli 3 from Raus division; as he had done in much of Libya; the dirt and sand pounded into the field Marshal's skin had actually been obscuring how yellow his skin actually was, and the layers of grime had given the illusion that he hadn't become 12 or even 15 kilos underweight, but in a swimming costume, cleansed of his dirt, he looked like he needed to be hospitalized for a month immediately
Kesselring's chief of staff (Westphal, no relation) was practically smoldering when he barged in on Rommel in advance of his chief and the government ministers arrival to Alexandria. Rommel would look poor in newsreel and propaganda photos which where sure to be taken, thankfully he had brought forward the film crew who went about smothering Field Marshal Rommel in make ups to make him somewhat presentable
The meeting itself was interesting. Goring was all bombast as he always was, extolling his transport and combat air squadrons, even Ramcke's troops, Rommel let him have that, for all the Luftwaffe's short comings, Kesselring had worked miracles during the campaign, reinforcements arrived when needed an the tactical bombers and fighters had given their all above Gazala and Toburk and greatly contributed to the army's victory. With Goring more formally and forcefully advocating for support for the PAA in the high circles of the axis, Rommel was content to coddle him, as much as Goring was content to bask in the glow of victory; both men put their previous stormy confrontations on the back burner for now.
Rommel had a far more enjoyable experience with the foreign minister. They had extensively connected during Rommel's time as chief of Hitler's personal security battalion. Ribbentrop had served as a junior officer in the last war in the Hussars and served honorably. His son, not much older than Manfred Rommel had enlisted as a buck private in the SS battalion Das Reich and won medals in France for his bravery and continued on to win additional medals as a junior officer on the eastern front. Rommel had thought because of his own and his son's service that the foreign minister was the most invested in the plights and glories of the army in the field of the government ministers.
The foreign minister and his underlings and Italian counterparts had their work cut out for them. Farouk's current stance of wanting all Europeans to leave Egypt was not workable, but he was known to be an Italophile and had written to Hitler last year showing an interest in bringing Egypt as a full throated member of the axis. Emmisaries from the King where in contact with members of Kleeman's staff, Kleeman had two arabic speaking staff officers, so Rommel was content for now to let them run point on establishing relations with the Egyptian government, army and public. The emmisaries did however say that the Egyptian army and public, so long as the PAA would behave honorably would not resist them extending their front along the left bank of the nile, but would not accept their entry into Cairo itself, at least until such time as the British might agree to withdraw out of the country in an a mutual arrangement of ending war fighting in Egypt.
Rommel had looked at maps of Egypt, prepared by his commando supremo coordination officer. Establishing a front along the west bank of the Nile was attractive in a number of ways, as it represented a defensible front on paper and would put the PAA into contact with large parts of the (hopefully) friendly Egyptian civilian population, who could be put to work to provide a lot of soft support to the army. The problems, among many Rommel considered with such a plan, was the immense difficulty of supplying troops along such a long, in the face of his open supply crisis, and that a front like that was beyond the power of his 10 paper divisions, which at best had the field strength of 6. This is where his and Kesselring's lobbying to Goring/Ribbentrop would have to come in, the PAA would have to grow, not just be reinforced, and a realistic way to supply them would have to be found. Rommel felt he would need another 2 tank and 5 motorized infantry divisions of good strength to fight the war on such a front, essentially doubling the size of his army, the thought of wrangling that out of Rome or Berlin would make the most politically favored officer's stomach turn in knots, Rommel and Kesselring had to crawl over broken glass to obtain regiments from the OKW, getting two corps out of them and supplying them for offensive warfare was something that would be laughed out of the room and he knew it
The other option was to keep his army highly concentrated in the north and such as they might obtain bridging equipment keep driving east towards to Port Said and the Suez Canal, leaving some of his battered Italian infantry divisions to screen against attacks from the south. Reaching the Suez Canal was always the strategic objective in Rommel's mind, and he felt that if he could capture and establish a bridgehead on the other side, that the British would be forced to abandon Cyprus, and surrender all sea control in the eastern Med to the Italian navy, which would loosen up resistance to his supply convoys, additionally he felt this offered the best combined pressure with troops which would be hopefully marching south from the soon to be launched case blue operation in southern Russia; leaving Auchinlek to rot to his south was attractive as it was known from the final decrypts they had gotten from Fellers that GHQ had emptied it's divisions out of Iraq and Persia and elsewhere to reinvigorate the 8th army, and that once Rommel could reach the canal his only enemy would be the sand, not British tanks and motorized infantry. He felt he could run such a campaign needing only 3 more infantry divisions in support to help screen his army from the south, the waterways of the nile would do the rest; that could be pulled from the remaining reserves being held for Herkules, if they could be deployed and supplied without straining the armies in Russia, and his existing divisions would need to be rebuilt to their May 25th strength; this was still a huge ask, but it was not two fresh mobile corps. Hitler would like it, Mussolini would hate it, Rommel already knew. Mussolini would want the entirety of Egypt, his glorious victory parade on the white horse he had brought in to Tobruk for his delayed victory parade; he wanted the jewel of the Nile; Rommel could care less, he wanted to win the war, and now only 300km from his final objective, he had even less interest in taking useless tracks of sand to the south. He felt at best case if Rome and Berlin gave him maximum support and the Egyptian civilian population provided soft support that he could be ready for this drive, no he would have be ready by 1st week in August, before Fellers fresh divisions would be online and ready for combat
That's what the trip home was for, not just to see Frau Rommel, but to, in lock step with Goring, to ask Mussolini and Hitler for the additional support the army would need to finish it's campaign in Egypt and to lean on the foreign ministries to make whatever concessions where humanly needed to assure compliance or better yet outright aide from the Egyptians
David Flin
Gone Fishin'
Aside from the issue of getting those 7 extra divisions (did Germany even have 5 motorised infantry divisions, never mind having them as spare divisions) - which you rightly point out is a fantasy, the fact that they would be impossible to supply (especially without the British Supply Dump Superstores conveniently placed). Even Rommel would know that.
Alexandria is not usable as a port. All his supplies have to come down one crappy desert road for hundreds of miles. Supplying those extra divisions is a complete fantasy.
You don't know the desert, do you. Any history of desert warfare will tell you how absurd that thought Rommel has there is. It was demonstrated, quite clearly, that desert campaigns require, absolutely, the development of water infrastructure to support troops. Adding more troops just makes things worse. There is no water infrastructure beyond the Nile, just sand destroying the trucks and tanks.
And good luck with relying on the Nile. The troops he has aren't used to that water. If they rely on it, one week down the line, and he'll find his troops stricken with dysentery. His forces will be at half strength, if that, for a couple of months, and going nowhere.
I see the lead tea is in full force.
I mean, it's not as though at this time, the Indian Army was ramping up significantly, with the units formed earlier completing training and becoming available.
These were already feeding through.
Garrison
Donor
The 'real' reason for Rommel's trip home makes no sense. Rommel is not nearly senior enough to have any influence over Goering, who would probably be affronted at the idea he should be co-ordinating with Rommel and there is no way he would be dealing directly with Mussolini. All of this seems to be far outside the chain of command and while I'm sure he might get a meeting with Hitler in the expectation of a medal or a promotion that isn't going to make Goering or Mussolini follow his intentions. I can't help but feel that trip will be used to further justify the paucity of information the British are obtaining from ULTRA.
I must also say that if that at this point you are still planning to deliver some sort of pyrrhic British victory then given the way they and Rommel have been portrayed over the last 80 pages achieving that is going to lower the plausibility even further, not raise it.
cardcarrier
Banned
Rommel hasn't been granted anything for a new offensive, he is planning to present his wish list to his superiors when asked what his next step would be, which would be natural now that his army has come to a halt and has to regroup
In theory, Germany has nearly it's entire tank park in reserve, as case blue has not commenced yet, 2nd Kharkov is finished and the 1st battle of Rhzev hasn't started yet, and the siege of sevastopol didn't involve much axis armor; he can ask; what Hitler and Mussolini say to him we can speculate
Total reinforcements granted to him so far are ~10,000 Germans and ~12,000 Italians and 9 tanks. These all, except for ~3000 survivors of the 6th panzer division are historical reinforcements he received starting the last week of June. He did receive ~250 replacement tanks between the last week in June and the last week in August historically including ~3 dozen Panzer 4 upgrade conversion kits
So Goring in the face of defeat was ordered to coordinate with Rommel, flush with a victory in which his service played a significant part, he would be interested (as he was anyway) in advancing the cause of the med theater and shifting to defensive warfare in Russia. Hitler choosing to listen to them when his Army Group South is coiled for what he thought was a war winning attack on the other hand is of course a different beast
Ultra decrypts of Rommel's traffic improved greatly over the fall, there is nothing that has occurred here that changes that
In theory, Germany has nearly it's entire tank park in reserve, as case blue has not commenced yet, 2nd Kharkov is finished and the 1st battle of Rhzev hasn't started yet, and the siege of sevastopol didn't involve much axis armor; he can ask; what Hitler and Mussolini say to him we can speculate
Total reinforcements granted to him so far are ~10,000 Germans and ~12,000 Italians and 9 tanks. These all, except for ~3000 survivors of the 6th panzer division are historical reinforcements he received starting the last week of June. He did receive ~250 replacement tanks between the last week in June and the last week in August historically including ~3 dozen Panzer 4 upgrade conversion kits
Senior? He was made field Marshal, as such he was entitled (and did) report directly to Hitler and Mussolini. This trip home is semi modeled on historical trip home in September 1942, where he was granted audience with Hitler and Goring and the entirety of OKW high command. This lead to him saying the Luftwaffe wasn't protecting the army and displaying an American made 40mm aircraft shell of the sort that where kabooming his tanks. To which Goring replied, "The Americans can only make razorblades" to which Rommel replied "we could use some of those razorblades" Following that stormy fiasco, Goring was ordered by Hitler to accompany Rommel and the Prince of Hesse to Rome to try to make improved arrangements with the commando supremo about supplying the panzer army africa, which were not successful
So Goring in the face of defeat was ordered to coordinate with Rommel, flush with a victory in which his service played a significant part, he would be interested (as he was anyway) in advancing the cause of the med theater and shifting to defensive warfare in Russia. Hitler choosing to listen to them when his Army Group South is coiled for what he thought was a war winning attack on the other hand is of course a different beast
Ultra decrypts of Rommel's traffic improved greatly over the fall, there is nothing that has occurred here that changes that
David Flin
Gone Fishin'
The question is, why does his wish list include 7 divisions that he can't possibly support? Troops and vehicles need supplies, and he is already unable to supply what he has with his own resources.
The history of modern warfare in the region, from Allenby in WWI to the Six Day War, has been based on the fact that the biggest enemy is the terrain. Heroic efforts have to be made to supply forces in the region, and demanding troops before demanding logistical support is idiocy of the first degree.
cardcarrier
Banned
Bearing in mind that Rommel's army is only 90k men (which was the rough PAA strength May 1942) and that in the face of continued defeats in Africa, that army was built to 250k men by May 1943; sending troops into hopelessly stupid and undersupplied situations was right in the axis wheelhouse
He is making this requests, under his previous guidance from Kesselring and the Commando Supremo, which was that once he neutralized Alexandria he would receive additional reinforcements
We have the benefit of hindsite of knowing the situation in Russia and Rommel's early stripping of the cubbard would render that promise moot, on top of his failure to capture Alexandria in tact, and that even though Malta will be surrendered, it's strategic importance has fallen by the wayside
He is making this requests, under his previous guidance from Kesselring and the Commando Supremo, which was that once he neutralized Alexandria he would receive additional reinforcements
We have the benefit of hindsite of knowing the situation in Russia and Rommel's early stripping of the cubbard would render that promise moot, on top of his failure to capture Alexandria in tact, and that even though Malta will be surrendered, it's strategic importance has fallen by the wayside
David Flin
Gone Fishin'
In this story, Rommel can physically see that Alexandria is not usable. He can physically see that his supplies are having to come hundreds of miles down a single crappy road. He can tell that it is quite warm in the desert, and that water supply is an issue. He's also aware that regardless of what happens in the Med - even if it were to freeze and his supplies instantly appear on pallets in the ports he can use, he physically can't supply any more troops.
Unless he is a grade A idiot, asking for more troops is nonsensical. Replacing worn out troops, that's doable. The new troops will be inexperienced in the conditions, but what the hell, they are German and he is Rommel, so that doesn't matter.
We've grown used to the logistics debate coming down to capturing conveniently located British supplies as required. That has gone. There are no more British supply dumps to be looted, which means he is on his own supply resources. Which, unless he is an idiot, he will know are inadequate for what he has, never mind asking for reinforcements.
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Garrison
Donor
Which I'm sure is a totally true story and not just cheery little anecdotes offered up by German officers to make good reading for the Allies who had control of their fates post war? Possibly along the same lines as the story that when asked what they needed in the Battle of Britain some officer supposedly replied 'a squadron of Spitfires'. I mean sure if you wanted to be removed from duty you might say that to Goering. The notion of Rommel wandering into Goering's office with a 40mm shell tucked under his arm is about as plausible as anything else in this TL. For that matter the whole bit about Rommel eating only the same as his troops is not something I've ever read in any source. The closest I've ever seen to that is the film 'Battle of the Bulge', which has the commander insisting on eating the same as his troops. If you have another more plausible source for this claim please do present it.
People talk about how history is written by the victors but its astounding how much of what became accepted as the history of the Wehrmacht was written by Nazi Generals and officials desperate to polish their reputations and foster the myth of the clean Wehrmacht. The Allies went along with it largely because they realised they might need a German army to fight the Soviets and those generals had so much experience fighting on the Easter Front, and losing, which the Allies somehow overlooked. It also looked a lot better if their losses were inflicted by brilliant generals commanding an almost unstoppable military machine rather than their own mistakes. In this TL this rose tinted view of Rommel seems to be taken as fact.
And how many of those troops were disembarked in Libya and Tunisia after Rommel was thrown permanently on the defensive and didn't have to have supplies shipped all the way to Egypt?
cardcarrier
Banned
His army was rebuilt in July and August back to ~450 tanks, and he even had most of his infantry replaced in basically the same place, (considering that Alamein and Alexandria are only 90 miles from each other). That was without the British fleet base being neutralized (Malta was still super limited in it's function because of the convoy failures) and him only capturing Tobruk 4% in tact. In the ATL he has captured Tobruk 33 percent in tact, and captured ~150 miles of the military rail road in tact (between Tobruk area and Sollum)
Alam Halfa was still a failure obviously because Montgomery rebuilt fast, didn't lose his nerve, and the nature of the air war in africa had permanently changed. Auchinlek is weaker for now than he was on historical 7/1/42, but he has 3 huge American divisions en route (on top of other British/Commonwealth reinforcements) and the change in the air war would still happen for the same reasons historically. If Rommel could supply 450 tanks and 60k infantry (more or less) at Alamein under the horrendous OTL conditions at Alam Halfa, I would have to imagine that flush with victory he would want more troops, the man had high confidence in his ability to overcome supply difficulties
cardcarrier
Banned
obviously none of us where in the OKW briefing room with Rommel, Hitler Goring and Jodl in September 1942. The quote/incident with the 40mm shell and the razorblades is out of BH Liddle Hart's 1953 "Rommel Papers", from his own notes; I have never heard that incident or Goring's assertion (which he made in other forums besides that meeting with Rommel) that the Americans only knew how to make razor blades said by modern historians to be untrue; Rommel's staff all survived the war and became high ranking bundswehr officers/valued Nato lecturers /consultants on official war histories. They all contributed to the Rommel myth, but I don't see how showing Goring a shell after getting pancaked at Alam Halfa qualifies as part of the severe omissions they made to make Rommel look better (ie not talking about him deporting Jews in Libya or the horrendous war crimes his troops committed during operation Alaric, or his slaughter of French civilians in France 1940)
the Rommel myth as I understand it, is really about down playing his real beliefs in Hitler and the Nazi party, and completely omitting his many war crimes committed as a member of the German army; not the combat achievements; and his bickering with high command is substantively documented for his entire war service, given that he was a huge political favorite and had a personal relationship with Hitler, he had a habit of shitting on his military superiors and just appealing to Hitler to get his way. Which is why one of the incidents that's remarked when he returned to Africa after Stumme died; where he asked Hitler for permission to withdraw the army, and Hitler issued a not one step back order that ~he wept, despondent in front of his staff because fuhrer had always previously trusted his judgement~, and yet funnily enough Goring advocated letting him withdraw, after shitting on him so bad the month before after the shell stunt
the 2005 biography of Rommel and Patton produced by the University of Colorado recounts the shell story unaltered; so if there is problem with that anecdote it's been lost to history
regarding the bad food; he is remarked to have succumb several times to intestinal distress throughout the african campaign along side the rest of the troops; they probably didn't have any better options for anyone, including the senior officers,
Garrison
Donor
A book which is in no small part responsible for whitewashing Rommel's reputation , written by a man with an axe to grind against the British authorities. Simply put in terms of how likely it is that Goering was that dismissive at the very time when the Luftwaffe was worrying about an Anglo-American air armada and that Rommel would antagonize the man whose support he needs? IMHO if Liddel-Hart was telling that story to day the appropriate response would be. 'cool story bro'.
cardcarrier
Banned
The Nazi whitewashing, yes 100%; the story I don't know, it does seem to have the set the base line where Rommel was ultimately relieved when Alaric happened ~for defeatism~; Heinz Guderian was permitted to slam on Goring after the Stalingrad disaster and never faced any consequences at all; perhaps slamming on Goring from senior officers was just allowed at Hitler's court at that time
Rommel's relationship with Goring in any history I have read usually says ~stormy but respectful~ up to the Sept 42 incident at which point it became toxic, the trip to Rome on the private train 100% happened
David Flin
Gone Fishin'
Warning
If you are dependent on Liddell Hart's skills at getting to the truth from his interviews with German officers post-War, you're in for a fantasy ride.
He swallowed, hook, line, and sinker, the insane levels of flattery (why, Liddell-Hart, your theories were our inspiration and wonderment and even though our operational actions bore no relation to what you proposed, we were in awe of your God-like understanding of the theory of battle. Truly, you were a genius among genii. Please put in a good word for us at our trial where we are accused of knowing things about the Holocaust and war crimes that were committed by our commands and that we knew nothing about even though they were happening under our nose, oh great and wise one). I do not exaggerate by much.
Liddell-Hart's interviews with German officers post-war are worthless. They break all known journalistic criteria (unverified sources, not looking for alternative explanations). In short, the German officers spun him what he wanted to hear, and he went away happy.
Is this from your own imagination, or do you have a source for it? Because the commanding general doing this is an idiotic and insane way of operating. A commanding officer, at any level, who limits their own ability to make quick, accurate decisions is a liability. If they need to know how far a trooper can be pushed on the rations available, you detail off a staff officer to be the (very bad) control. You do not do anything to hamper your own judgement. I know of no reference for such an action except that of the film Battle of the Bulge (that well-known historically accurate source).
And as for the concept of an experienced soldier who hasn't learned how to cat-nap, it is to laugh. Every soldier (and sailor and air force person) very quickly learns how to grab sleep as and where they can. It was a trick I certainly learned, enabling me to sleep with my eyes open and vaguely aware of what's going on while standing up, or in any convenient location. (A trick that has come in useful more recently as my cancer now prevents me from sleeping longer than about an hour at a time. So I cat-nap a lot - sleep for an hour, walk for ten minutes, sleep for an hour). The point is, that's standard for any serviceman.
To the untrained eye, your paragraph above might seem like praise of the almighty Rommel. It's actually pretty damning criticism.
I don’t think we need to be as harsh. Yes it’s praising Rommel in ways that don’t fit it and go way beyond his skill. And it’s not completely historically accurate or reflecting of abilities of either side. But it’s still a timeline and it’s nice to have them.
Rommel had close relations with the Italian high command, and was a favorite of Hitler. Goering might very well try to bask in the glory of Rommel's victory, and Mussolini would certainly meet with Rommel, and listen to his report, and advice. If he would follow his advice is problematic. At this point Rommel is ill, and needs rest, and medical treatment in Germany. He would be flying home for at least 30 days, while his army rests, and regroups. There isn't going to be any major fighting before August, or September.
David Flin
Gone Fishin'
My preference for TLs is for historical people within them to respond to different circumstances in ways that plausibly match with what we know of their personality at the time the piece is set. If I were to set a piece in mid 1980s UK, and I had Thatcher vacillating over whether or not to take on the miners, and had her acknowledging that those who disagreed with her had a point, I would be rightfully torn apart for it.
There are, and have been, plenty of TLs where I disagree over details and so forth, but I can see the underpinning logic behind them. That's fine. Plenty of people have differed with details in TLs I wrote, and the TL was the better for this as it forced me to consider whether or not they had a point.
I'll continue to point out areas where I have issues - such as the nonsense about Rommel limiting his ability to make decisions - for the OP to consider.
I know but that requires not just simple research but understanding. And oftentimes research that goes beyond what is available to most people.
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