that is going to be a rude awakening, considering he broke down in otl. with the ittl very hostile population and starvation etc issues going on he might break down even quicker than otl. wonder how bad a breaking down Fredendall will be for morale.
Sixes and Snake eyes Rommel's luck in an alternate 1942 desert war
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cardcarrier
Banned
Fredendall certainly failed at his test of command, and proved himself not fit lead American troops under the circumstances in which he landed, as you can probably tell by the Fellers reports, Auchinlek is going to be fired very soon to try and capture a baseline to restore the Army's morale. The regime of General's Montgomery and Alexander will be very different than what has brought the situation in Egypt to calamity under Rictchie/Auchinlek/Smith. They are also going to run a much tighter ship than General Anderson, permitted in North Africa before/during the debacle at Kasserine.
Alexander and Montgomery, and General Fellers had no patience for fools; and Fellers to this point has had his clarity of viewpoint and bluntness greatly read and respected by President Roosevelt, and begrudgingly respected by General Marshal. Having seen the calamity befalling the 8th army by it's repeated poor command practices and lack of discipline, Fellers would not go quietly along with Fredendall frittering away the army to be slapped around by Rommel. Fellers, as a graduate of the war and command colleges would not tolerate Fedendall's wild lack of professionalism or his propensity to be a drunken coward without immediately zipping it up the chain either to GHQ or back to Marshal, whichever could get Fredendall sent on a one way ticket back to the continental US the fastest, even something as basic as Fredendall's refusal to use standard artillery grid squares would lead to incredible confrontations with Fellers, who got his commission... as a coastal artillery officer and served with the coastal artillery for nearly 10 years, so he knows better, and would just not implement that sort of non sensical order, or would implement it and go screaming to Marshal and Alexander to get rid of him
As you noted above Fredendall is certainly coming into a much more difficult situation than the initial 2nd corps landing at Oran
Alexander and Montgomery, and General Fellers had no patience for fools; and Fellers to this point has had his clarity of viewpoint and bluntness greatly read and respected by President Roosevelt, and begrudgingly respected by General Marshal. Having seen the calamity befalling the 8th army by it's repeated poor command practices and lack of discipline, Fellers would not go quietly along with Fredendall frittering away the army to be slapped around by Rommel. Fellers, as a graduate of the war and command colleges would not tolerate Fedendall's wild lack of professionalism or his propensity to be a drunken coward without immediately zipping it up the chain either to GHQ or back to Marshal, whichever could get Fredendall sent on a one way ticket back to the continental US the fastest, even something as basic as Fredendall's refusal to use standard artillery grid squares would lead to incredible confrontations with Fellers, who got his commission... as a coastal artillery officer and served with the coastal artillery for nearly 10 years, so he knows better, and would just not implement that sort of non sensical order, or would implement it and go screaming to Marshal and Alexander to get rid of him
As you noted above Fredendall is certainly coming into a much more difficult situation than the initial 2nd corps landing at Oran
22.1 Rommel reaches Alexandria
cardcarrier
Banned
Chapter 22.1
6-14-42 23:59hrs Alexandria, Egypt, Panzer Army Africa Mobile Command Post AEC "Mammouth" armored bus, Field Marshal Irwin Rommel Commander Panzer Army Africa, Oberst Siegfried Westphal C chief of PAA operations, Erhard Raus Commander 15th Panzer Division, Major Alfred Seebohme commander 621st Radio Interception company, chief of PAA special communications
FROM SPECIAL AGENT CONDOR (Utilizing special encoding system from the Novel Rebekah)
For Field Marshal Rommel's eyes only
Once you are a permanent guest in one of my prisoner cages, I will personally see to it, that you have the closest shave and the finest coffee the USA has to offer. My army will be here soon, then everything changes; understand you are coming into Alexandria whilst it's seen hard times, this will be the end of your advances, I left you a present in the remains of the Fleet HQ - Fellers
For Rommel, as his command bus rolled into the smoking ruins of Alexandria, only the smell of suffering was far more overpowering than any smell of victory he could have dreamed of reaching the city. He had driven more than 1000 miles from his initial drop off in Tripoli, this was supposed to be the promised land, the end of all of his supply difficulties, the end of British resistance.... it was a smoldering ruin. It's normally glimmering harbor, able to provide safe anchorage for an entire battlefleet was burning fiercely from the destruction of the British fleet oil reserves, and all of the approaches had been comprehensively sabotaged with numerous British and Egyptian blocking ships being sunk into the harbor waters, in such condition where refloating them would be nearly impossible
The initial report from his German and Italian harbor engineers was the hardest hit he had taken since the moment he landed in Africa
The damage is so severe sir that it would take several years effort of 5000 qualified men to restore the harbor to good working order
The blockships are an absolute mess sir, it would be easier, faster and less expensive to do abandon everything and just dig a new channel
The German field marshal winced particularly when he had to report back to Mussolini that the Duce should not come to Egypt for a victory parade, what parts of Alexandria where not burning were flooded, starving and dying of thirst as the British had wrecked the city's infrastructures from end to end. There were many axis flags throughout the windows of various apartment buildings and homes in Alexandria's suburbs and the city itself as the Panzer Army was steadily rolling in
The first thing Rommel did after getting a corridor set up was make his way to burned out fleet HQ building, finding his was to the fleet admirals office where he found a single 9mm bullet with a card next to it, written the Rebekah code saying for your pet Seebohme, he will need it - Fellers
Rommel winced when he found that, Feller's must have had one of his laison officers leave that for him right when the last allied officers where bugging out of the city. That spy had certainly been talking
But the greater sources of his personal pain was the painstaking effort the British had made to destroy everything of value in the city and the pile of human suffering they had left in their wake. Rommel had nothing like the resources to possibly feed or relocate any of the crowds of refugees wandering about the city and along the Nile, if anything the great pile of spoils he had taken on at El Adem,, Gambut, Belahamed and Toburk was being burned down to nothing at an alarming rate; his army was strung out over a course greater than 600 miles, and bringing supplies this far forward, particularly since the harbor would not be usable for the axis in this war, burned far more fuel and food to get to him than it could ever deliver; and more to the point the offensive in Russia would start in a week and a half, and wrangling additional support out of Rome and Berlin would be a titanic undertaking, even in spite of Kesselring and Goring's endorsement
But to buoy that support the Reichsmarshal and the foreign minister Von Ribbentrop, for the first time in the war was going to come as a surprise to Africa to inspect the airmen and parachute infantry. They would then bring Rommel back to Rome with him for his 2 week leave. Although Rommel's relationship with Goring had been stormy, it was still respectful, and Kesselring served as an effective intermediary. Goring's trip would represent the first time a high ranking member of Hitler's cabinet had come to Africa since the campaign started, and could add some voice that the OKW and OKH where sorely lacking by their never having seen conditions in Libya or Egypt for themselves. Ribbentrop was tasked with establishing a baseline for relations with Farouk and the Egyptian military, he would also be accompanied by the Prince of Hesse and Mussolini's son in law the Count Ciano. There were a lot of delicate decisions to be made there Rommel thought, and he felt it was important to bring back photo's that his attached ministry of propaganda photographer had taken to show Hilter, Mussolini and the European Public.
Seebohme, transmit another message to Agent Condor
For Fellers eyes only
I found your "gift"; that was in poor taste for someone with your formal training and education, I'd wager a cowboy on your staff suggested that. I welcome the opportunity to thrash your army upon it's arrival, I've grown bored from chasing your British allies out of every line they had tried to hold in front of the DAK, the troops are hungry to actually be challenged - Rommel
6-14-42 23:59hrs Alexandria, Egypt, Panzer Army Africa Mobile Command Post AEC "Mammouth" armored bus, Field Marshal Irwin Rommel Commander Panzer Army Africa, Oberst Siegfried Westphal C chief of PAA operations, Erhard Raus Commander 15th Panzer Division, Major Alfred Seebohme commander 621st Radio Interception company, chief of PAA special communications
FROM SPECIAL AGENT CONDOR (Utilizing special encoding system from the Novel Rebekah)
For Field Marshal Rommel's eyes only
Once you are a permanent guest in one of my prisoner cages, I will personally see to it, that you have the closest shave and the finest coffee the USA has to offer. My army will be here soon, then everything changes; understand you are coming into Alexandria whilst it's seen hard times, this will be the end of your advances, I left you a present in the remains of the Fleet HQ - Fellers
For Rommel, as his command bus rolled into the smoking ruins of Alexandria, only the smell of suffering was far more overpowering than any smell of victory he could have dreamed of reaching the city. He had driven more than 1000 miles from his initial drop off in Tripoli, this was supposed to be the promised land, the end of all of his supply difficulties, the end of British resistance.... it was a smoldering ruin. It's normally glimmering harbor, able to provide safe anchorage for an entire battlefleet was burning fiercely from the destruction of the British fleet oil reserves, and all of the approaches had been comprehensively sabotaged with numerous British and Egyptian blocking ships being sunk into the harbor waters, in such condition where refloating them would be nearly impossible
The initial report from his German and Italian harbor engineers was the hardest hit he had taken since the moment he landed in Africa
The damage is so severe sir that it would take several years effort of 5000 qualified men to restore the harbor to good working order
The blockships are an absolute mess sir, it would be easier, faster and less expensive to do abandon everything and just dig a new channel
The German field marshal winced particularly when he had to report back to Mussolini that the Duce should not come to Egypt for a victory parade, what parts of Alexandria where not burning were flooded, starving and dying of thirst as the British had wrecked the city's infrastructures from end to end. There were many axis flags throughout the windows of various apartment buildings and homes in Alexandria's suburbs and the city itself as the Panzer Army was steadily rolling in
The first thing Rommel did after getting a corridor set up was make his way to burned out fleet HQ building, finding his was to the fleet admirals office where he found a single 9mm bullet with a card next to it, written the Rebekah code saying for your pet Seebohme, he will need it - Fellers
Rommel winced when he found that, Feller's must have had one of his laison officers leave that for him right when the last allied officers where bugging out of the city. That spy had certainly been talking
But the greater sources of his personal pain was the painstaking effort the British had made to destroy everything of value in the city and the pile of human suffering they had left in their wake. Rommel had nothing like the resources to possibly feed or relocate any of the crowds of refugees wandering about the city and along the Nile, if anything the great pile of spoils he had taken on at El Adem,, Gambut, Belahamed and Toburk was being burned down to nothing at an alarming rate; his army was strung out over a course greater than 600 miles, and bringing supplies this far forward, particularly since the harbor would not be usable for the axis in this war, burned far more fuel and food to get to him than it could ever deliver; and more to the point the offensive in Russia would start in a week and a half, and wrangling additional support out of Rome and Berlin would be a titanic undertaking, even in spite of Kesselring and Goring's endorsement
But to buoy that support the Reichsmarshal and the foreign minister Von Ribbentrop, for the first time in the war was going to come as a surprise to Africa to inspect the airmen and parachute infantry. They would then bring Rommel back to Rome with him for his 2 week leave. Although Rommel's relationship with Goring had been stormy, it was still respectful, and Kesselring served as an effective intermediary. Goring's trip would represent the first time a high ranking member of Hitler's cabinet had come to Africa since the campaign started, and could add some voice that the OKW and OKH where sorely lacking by their never having seen conditions in Libya or Egypt for themselves. Ribbentrop was tasked with establishing a baseline for relations with Farouk and the Egyptian military, he would also be accompanied by the Prince of Hesse and Mussolini's son in law the Count Ciano. There were a lot of delicate decisions to be made there Rommel thought, and he felt it was important to bring back photo's that his attached ministry of propaganda photographer had taken to show Hilter, Mussolini and the European Public.
Seebohme, transmit another message to Agent Condor
For Fellers eyes only
I found your "gift"; that was in poor taste for someone with your formal training and education, I'd wager a cowboy on your staff suggested that. I welcome the opportunity to thrash your army upon it's arrival, I've grown bored from chasing your British allies out of every line they had tried to hold in front of the DAK, the troops are hungry to actually be challenged - Rommel
That doesn't include HOW BIG Fredendall may fuck up when he goes against Rommel.
Given enough luck, Rommel may not only win, but ironically profiting further of the American General's blundering and getting the so desperately needed extra resources to keep going his antics......
You can just imagine that Montgomery and Alexander are going to be cussing in the filthiest terms possible the American General's name in the aftermath of his FUBAR.....
He might even cause some perfect storm event (to the disadvantage of the allies), the best way to secure things though for rommel will be trying to get the waterworks fixed, it would pretty much cement the population in the germans favour.
And what the british did in egypt is going to be a propaganda coup for the germans anyway.
Paternas
Donor
I am wondering if the Allies are actually going to launch another Desert campaign beyond recapturing Egypt to create some breathing room for the Suez Canal. With the defeats taken and the loss of Alexandria harbor, shifting the main effort to an ATL Operation Torch might make more sense.
I can only imagine the Angelo- Egyptian relationship after the war. Destroying all that infrastructure and civilian supplies is going to leave a lot of scars.
Honestly with 1st armored (and presumably 1st and 9th infrantry sense erlyer post mentions 3 division American help and those were the otl divisions in 2ed corps) without those divisions and there transport tide up on the other side of Egypt I can't see Torch happening.
The Germans are in such a bad supply station that they might have to build an emergency harbour/jetty onto the beach like was done at d-day or just beech ship to unload the cargo.
or they could offload cargo from a ship offshore onto barges or rafts and run them onto the beaches.
It would not be much but it might be considered because of the shortages.
Once the locals realise there is no food or water coming they could head for British lines in a disorganised refugee column/armed mob.
destroying the food and water might backfire on the British who might have the lines swamped with desperate civilians heading for British lines and civilians on the other side rushing to help them.
sabotage on this scale affecting the civilian population might even be classed as a war crime.
When word of this spread to the rest of the Arab world there could be widespread revolts against the allies.
I am not sure how the Americans will react to this.
Germans propaganda will find this all very useful.
The Turks might wonder why should they supply malta when the British are starving Muslims in Egypt.
Turks might even try to send aid to restore the water and demand that the red crescent is allowed to supply food to the starving.
Coptic Orthodox Church will be demanding emergency/humanitarian aid be sent too.
Even the Pope will condemn this.
or they could offload cargo from a ship offshore onto barges or rafts and run them onto the beaches.
It would not be much but it might be considered because of the shortages.
Once the locals realise there is no food or water coming they could head for British lines in a disorganised refugee column/armed mob.
destroying the food and water might backfire on the British who might have the lines swamped with desperate civilians heading for British lines and civilians on the other side rushing to help them.
sabotage on this scale affecting the civilian population might even be classed as a war crime.
When word of this spread to the rest of the Arab world there could be widespread revolts against the allies.
I am not sure how the Americans will react to this.
Germans propaganda will find this all very useful.
The Turks might wonder why should they supply malta when the British are starving Muslims in Egypt.
Turks might even try to send aid to restore the water and demand that the red crescent is allowed to supply food to the starving.
Coptic Orthodox Church will be demanding emergency/humanitarian aid be sent too.
Even the Pope will condemn this.
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Paternas
Donor
ITTL the British lost a lot of additional manpower and units, but not that much more equipment for land warfare compared to OTL. There is also going to be lower attrition from trucks driving through the desert. I think it should be possible to shift some equipment and ships around and use British UK-based troops to replace the Americans going East. The Shermans which OTL went to the British are ITTL probably going to the American Corps.
Ok, most of these troops are also heading to Egypt if nothing else then then to passafy the country after the allies take it back. Wich they have to else they lose use of the suze canal.
cardcarrier
Banned
Destroying the water works of Alexandria and Cairo/Giza along with opening the sluices/dams/dykes creates a critical food and water situation for at least 10 million people. The USA was way ahead of the curve for water purification for it's soldiers (out of necessity given the frequent non existent sources of potable water in North Africa and the Pacific) See USA army training film for how to produce potable water for troops
Utilizing these practices the USA generally had low water bourn illness cases per capita in their army
However as you can see it's laborious AF; and by dynamiting the irrigation dykes that where used in heavy cotton and food farming, the nile and other tributaries would be awash in heavy duty contaminated runoff, to the point where the water would be more sewage/pesticide than water, and even with the heavy chlorination, distillation or boiling, your odds of getting some sort of short or long term illness from it would be quite significant
US army battalion water pumpers where effective for the army but where far too small scale to support millions of thirsty, semi armed civilians and the British after having to have their army demolish much heavy infrastructure/front line support equipment in their evacuation, and with their crowded perimeter, can barely feed and water their own troops in the super short term... but considering it's Egypt, in June, the average high temperature in Cairo is 90F, the water problem is going to be a crisis long before anyone can dream of rebuilding their army, especially as the civilians had very little advance notice to start stockpiling potable water
Utilizing these practices the USA generally had low water bourn illness cases per capita in their army
However as you can see it's laborious AF; and by dynamiting the irrigation dykes that where used in heavy cotton and food farming, the nile and other tributaries would be awash in heavy duty contaminated runoff, to the point where the water would be more sewage/pesticide than water, and even with the heavy chlorination, distillation or boiling, your odds of getting some sort of short or long term illness from it would be quite significant
US army battalion water pumpers where effective for the army but where far too small scale to support millions of thirsty, semi armed civilians and the British after having to have their army demolish much heavy infrastructure/front line support equipment in their evacuation, and with their crowded perimeter, can barely feed and water their own troops in the super short term... but considering it's Egypt, in June, the average high temperature in Cairo is 90F, the water problem is going to be a crisis long before anyone can dream of rebuilding their army, especially as the civilians had very little advance notice to start stockpiling potable water
JLan1485
Banned
I haven't mentioned it before but the Western Allies have given up any real sense of moral superiority against the Axis with the crime against humanity that the British forces in North Africa have committed against the Egyptian people. Post-war I believe Arab consciousness will be deeper and more widespread than OTL.
Ba'athists in particular will experience an earlier and more prolonged period of popularity especially if they can defeat Israel.
Anyway, enough about what happens after the war. The fighting is yet to be done in north Africa and the Axis face an unprecedented humanitarian crisis from a sympathetic population: how are they going to deal with this, can they extract a meaningful diplomatic victory from Rommel's success?
I can't wait to find out!
Ba'athists in particular will experience an earlier and more prolonged period of popularity especially if they can defeat Israel.
Anyway, enough about what happens after the war. The fighting is yet to be done in north Africa and the Axis face an unprecedented humanitarian crisis from a sympathetic population: how are they going to deal with this, can they extract a meaningful diplomatic victory from Rommel's success?
I can't wait to find out!
The destruction is even worst than I thought.
This is a holocaust scale genocide. This is almost as bad as the hunger plan for the soviet union.
If I were Rommel I would get the cameras in document what happened and withdraw to outside the affected area and set up a defensive line somewhere he can supply.
The allies will then be left with the problem and be so busy feeding /restoring order /and supplying water they will be in no position to conduct military operations in the foreseeable future in that area.
This looks like an own goal for the British.
We had to save Egypt from the Germans by killing millions there.
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kham_coc
Banned
I don't think there would be any Israel in this TL - I can't see how the UK could manage a mandate in palestine, and consequently, it's likely to just be Arab run from the start.
Now that might reduce tensions and permit Arabs and Jews to live side by side in harmony (one could at least hope) but odds are, it's just going to be another Arab state (quite possibly a more viable Greater Arab state TTL).
cardcarrier
Banned
The potential death toll of Egyptian civilians in this sort of catastrophe even if the turks organize quick internationally respected aid would be at least 5mm civilians; or roughly as many civilians as the Heer killed in 1941, the political blowback will be not good
add to that full scale rebellion, possible civil war, and shooting between the axis and allies, another 2mm could be wracked up; plus long term extensive disease and famine
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That is dark.
Rommel could call for a ceasefire and appear for humanitarian aid to avoid unnecessary loss of civilian life.
Germans playing the role of witnesses of crimes against humanity committed by the allies.
I do not see that one coming.
That is going to make seeing the axis as the only bad guys in the war very hard.
The British must have lost their cotton-picking minds.
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