No Japanese naval presence though, and the overland route isn't great.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Planes crashed or just... disappeared... back then. No enemy action necessary. And if MacArthur's plane should happen to crash on a small deserted island that happens to be inhabited by coconut crabs... well, a crab's gotta eat. Or it could just be swallowed by either the Indian or Pacific Oceans, or vanish into the jungles of southeast Asia or the deserts of Australia. Hell, get him safely back to the US and then have his plane/train/car crash there.
Crash land on a deserted island with ample water but no food.
Of course McArthur is getting eaten first.
All these talks about the way MacArthur could die in a plane crash does make me think that can he instead of Patton, died in a car crash instead.
P/s: Meanwhile, these talks of a plane crash remind me of Amelia Earhart disappearance, which IOTL does happen after the POD, but pretty sure still happen ITTL unless I miss something (again).
We’re agreed then. Mac, flying through a cyclone, gets hit by an errant Japanese bomb, crash landing on a desert island, then gets eaten by either the aircraft crew or sharks. Seems plausible. 
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Malta ITTL.
There are as a result of the numerous changes that have arisen ITTL, between Malta IOTL and Malta ITTL. Unlike IOTL were the Siege lasted for close to two years, and Malta was one of the most heavily bombed areas on earth, during World War II. ITTL the siege has only been for just over one year, and the bombing hasn’t been as intense. The British haven’t had in desperation had to try to run heavily escorted convoys from Gibraltar, at great cost, to try to keep Malta supplied. Malta based submarines haven’t had to submerge to the bottom of the harbour and sit out the daylight hours to avoid being sunk at their moorings, thus depriving their crews of the opportunity to rest in comfort between patrols. While the garrison and population of the Islands have suffered significant hardships, and the Islands major damage to their infrastructure. This will be no where near as bad as it was IOTL.Where it wasn’t for a number of reasons, still until the nineteen sixties still trying to repair damage from the siege.
The siege of Malta now being effectively over, the authorities will now be able to implement a number of much needed measures. The garrison who have suffered along side the population, should soon be relieved and replaced with new units, and given the opportunity to completely reequip and refresh. Officers and men who are due for promotion, training or transfer, sent away and replaced with new recruits. The RAF, should be able to introduce a more British system for primary the fighter squadrons, with the squadrons being rotated regularly between service on the Island and rebuilding in North Africa. Thus avoiding both overstraining the pilots by subjecting them to continuous service, and feeding replacements in peace mill. The RN should be able to base lighter units, up to destroyers in Malta and begin to make use of the extensive dockyards, and the numerous skilled workers available. This along with the ability to base light bombers on the Island, will enable the British to take a more aggressive approach towards both Sicily and Southern Italy. One that will in time ether cause the Italian establishment to remove Benito from power, and seek an accommodation with Britain. Or be a part of the preparations for an invasion of Sicily, before the eventual invasion of the Mainland of Italy.
The much shorter length of the siege, along with the reduction in damage and casualties on Malta, might have an effect on Post War relations, between Malta and the United Kingdom. There is a good chance that, with the UK having suffered less damage ITTL than it did in ours, along with the fact that by retaining Burma and Malaya. The UK will be in a position to enjoy the income from these two highly profitable colonies, which it lost IOTL, throughout the war and temporarily post war. Along with the much lower costs of the war in total, shorter campaigns in Africa and the Middle East, lower losses in the Atlantic, thanks to the shorter Mediterranean campaign. All of this should mean that the UK, is in a position provide some financial support and relief Post War. Which it didn’t do IOTL, for a number of reasons, which caused much resentment among the Maltese people, who saw the massive investment in Britain by the Post War Labour. And this resentment was only increased by the fact that Malta as a British Colony, wasn’t entitled for relief under the rules, from the Marshal Plan. There is no question that Malta was very hard done by in the aftermath of WWII, and hopefully Britains better position financially ITTL, will allow Malta to receive some of the help in its recovery and rebuilding efforts that it deserves.
RR.
There are as a result of the numerous changes that have arisen ITTL, between Malta IOTL and Malta ITTL. Unlike IOTL were the Siege lasted for close to two years, and Malta was one of the most heavily bombed areas on earth, during World War II. ITTL the siege has only been for just over one year, and the bombing hasn’t been as intense. The British haven’t had in desperation had to try to run heavily escorted convoys from Gibraltar, at great cost, to try to keep Malta supplied. Malta based submarines haven’t had to submerge to the bottom of the harbour and sit out the daylight hours to avoid being sunk at their moorings, thus depriving their crews of the opportunity to rest in comfort between patrols. While the garrison and population of the Islands have suffered significant hardships, and the Islands major damage to their infrastructure. This will be no where near as bad as it was IOTL.Where it wasn’t for a number of reasons, still until the nineteen sixties still trying to repair damage from the siege.
The siege of Malta now being effectively over, the authorities will now be able to implement a number of much needed measures. The garrison who have suffered along side the population, should soon be relieved and replaced with new units, and given the opportunity to completely reequip and refresh. Officers and men who are due for promotion, training or transfer, sent away and replaced with new recruits. The RAF, should be able to introduce a more British system for primary the fighter squadrons, with the squadrons being rotated regularly between service on the Island and rebuilding in North Africa. Thus avoiding both overstraining the pilots by subjecting them to continuous service, and feeding replacements in peace mill. The RN should be able to base lighter units, up to destroyers in Malta and begin to make use of the extensive dockyards, and the numerous skilled workers available. This along with the ability to base light bombers on the Island, will enable the British to take a more aggressive approach towards both Sicily and Southern Italy. One that will in time ether cause the Italian establishment to remove Benito from power, and seek an accommodation with Britain. Or be a part of the preparations for an invasion of Sicily, before the eventual invasion of the Mainland of Italy.
The much shorter length of the siege, along with the reduction in damage and casualties on Malta, might have an effect on Post War relations, between Malta and the United Kingdom. There is a good chance that, with the UK having suffered less damage ITTL than it did in ours, along with the fact that by retaining Burma and Malaya. The UK will be in a position to enjoy the income from these two highly profitable colonies, which it lost IOTL, throughout the war and temporarily post war. Along with the much lower costs of the war in total, shorter campaigns in Africa and the Middle East, lower losses in the Atlantic, thanks to the shorter Mediterranean campaign. All of this should mean that the UK, is in a position provide some financial support and relief Post War. Which it didn’t do IOTL, for a number of reasons, which caused much resentment among the Maltese people, who saw the massive investment in Britain by the Post War Labour. And this resentment was only increased by the fact that Malta as a British Colony, wasn’t entitled for relief under the rules, from the Marshal Plan. There is no question that Malta was very hard done by in the aftermath of WWII, and hopefully Britains better position financially ITTL, will allow Malta to receive some of the help in its recovery and rebuilding efforts that it deserves.
RR.
Could have him crash some how on the Sentinel Islands.We’re agreed then. Mac, flying through a cyclone, gets hit by an errant Japanese bomb, crash landing on a desert island, then gets eaten by either the aircraft crew or sharks. Seems plausible.
Nope, nothing fishy about that at all.We’re agreed then. Mac, flying through a cyclone, gets hit by an errant Japanese bomb, crash landing on a desert island, then gets eaten by either the aircraft crew or sharks. Seems plausible.
Interesting. Malta as a crown colony? Could the same happen for Singapore as well?
Even still, Malta was one of the colonies closest to the UK IOTL, and had 77% of the population vote to join the UK in 1956. The plans fell through though (I think the Maltese might have been getting more than the British were happy with under the deal).
Singapore being a crown colony would in my opinion be determined by how the war in Malaya goes and what the local peoples think of it afterwards. If most people in Singapore are happy with how the British establishment treats them and glad that the Japanese forces were kept away from their homeland, while there's some resentment and unrest in Malaysia proper due to some mishap during the fighting, Singapore being closer to Britain than to peninsular Malaya can lead to Singapore being crown colony. However, the relationship between peninsular Malaysia and Britain would still have to be cordial for that scenario to really benefit everyone, so it would have to be the war ending in a result which leaves the average decisionmaker in Singapore very happy with Britain and his peer on the Malay peninsula somewhat lukewarm in comparison.
Well compared to say, the Philippines, the British in Malaya have fought exceptionally well.
Agreed. We can't expect the average Malayan decisionmaker to appreciate that to the same extent we do, however. They don't have OTL to compare with as a counterfactual. What they do have is the Malayan peninsula fought over extensively, with their most important and populous areas turned into battlegrounds. They might realise it could have been worse, and console themselves that at least it wasn't as bad as the Philippines, but it's still going to look pretty bad. A lot will depend on how the various propaganda organisations portray things.
TBH the post war consequences of this timeline could make a whole other timeline.
I can say that Britian won't be as diminished as it was OTL and probably isn't as in much debt as it was otl given that fewer asserts have gone down doing things like the run to Malta, a shorter Africa campaign, no Iraq revolt, the Far East going radically differently along with Britian having a better showing even in battles lost.
I think the post war landscape will be different somewhat.
I can say that Britian won't be as diminished as it was OTL and probably isn't as in much debt as it was otl given that fewer asserts have gone down doing things like the run to Malta, a shorter Africa campaign, no Iraq revolt, the Far East going radically differently along with Britian having a better showing even in battles lost.
I think the post war landscape will be different somewhat.
The vote to join the UK had one major condition - it had to have a > 60% turnout to be valid.
The leader of the pro-independence party instructed his supporters to boycott the poll, so turnout was 59%. As it fell under the threshold, it was ruled invalid (despite the high yea vote).
Remember, during these time, as been discussed before, the Malayan population in general is still politically relatively apathetic especially when compared to population in the Phillipines and India.
One of the interesting things is that (unlike the Phillipines) Malayan itself is not consist of one contiguous political entity but 7 different entities (in decreasing order of the British involvement are the SS [including Labuan, Christmas, and Cocos islands] , the FMS [which is usually treated and act as one entity internationally] and 5 Unfederated Malay States that are autonomous and lacked commonality with each other *cough* Johor *cough*) with the FMS and especially the UMS still for the most part had the Sultans (and a Raja) hold a considerable amount of sway in terms of day-to-day administration, and the Japanese during the occupation does interfere by replacing some of the Sultan(which when then reverted or in the case in which the old Sultan could no longer administrate, replaced by another Sultan
by the British), and the lack of those interferences by both sides could lead to some unexpected consequences.
All in all (in addition to the lack of Communist insurgency which had been discussed before) the political dynamics of post-war Malaya (in addition to Borneo) is in itself probably deserved to be discussed in a completely different thread.
Every different region has a lot of it changed that each region could probably had enough to have a thread each, and different somewhat is the running of being the understatement of the century.
There is a part of me that really tempting me to make a thread discussing Malaya alone.
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Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Dugout Doug and Burma.
While there is very little doubt that the majority of modern historians, and members of this forum, have a low opinion of His Imperial Majesty D MacArthur. That wasn’t the general opinion of the American public at the time, and there was a significant portion of the public that were of the opinion that he was not only a great leader, but also a far better man to be President of the United States, than the incumbent. Thanks to his personal propaganda machine, and that of much of the American Republican Party, his numerous faults and failures were covered up. While he isn’t going to achieve the fame ITTL that he did in ours, should he survive and be evaluated, he will be a significant thorn in the side of the American President, and the higher levels of the American Army. Unlike in Britain where since the English Civil War, and later the Premiership of Wellington, there has been a general agreement, especially among the political class of not having a former general as Prime Minister. And the question of who should be given command of His Majesty’s forces, is nominally one that is answered by ether the Secretary of State for War, or the Prime Minister. In America such questions are far more political, with even promotions above a certain rank, requiring Congressional approval. FDR is going to have to tread very carefully in his treatment of MacArthur, he can not just dismiss him and relegate him to the benches, as Winston was able to with those generals who displeased him.
The recent events in Burma, have arisen as a result of the general failure of the Japanese to fore fill their plan. The hold ups in Malaya have meant that the troops to exploit their original success in Burma, have been diverted to Malaya, and the campaign is now on hold awaiting the results of the Malayan campaign. This has allowed the British forces to enact a limited counter attack, against a very weak Japanese force, that has poor support and supply. While the British are not in a any position right now to carry out a major attack against the Japanese, they lack the resources and manpower at this time. However despite what has been said, the situation in Burma is very different to that which applied in the American attack on the Island of Guadalcanal. Unlike Guadalcanal, the areas of Southern Burma that have been attacked, have very little access to supplies, given that the local infrastructure is basically non existent. Prior to the outbreak of the war, the normal method of supplying this region, was by small coastal shipping. And it is the British that controls all coastal shipping, and the Japanese are reliant on basically human porters and animal carts from Thailand, over very difficult country. There is no possibility of the Japanese being able to provide major support to the area, ether on the ground or in the air. Note without the capture of Singapore, there is absolutely no chance of the Japanese Navy being able to intervene. Therefore the only threat that the RN faces is from the air, and thus is basically free to manoeuvre wherever it chooses. In addition for the Japanese to launch a series of successful air strikes against the British fleet, they would have to withdraw aviation units from the ongoing operations in Malaya. The most important part of this operation is the reestablish of the airfield at Victoria Point, which will once again allow short range aircraft to transit by air from India/Burma to Malaya/Singapore.
RR.
While there is very little doubt that the majority of modern historians, and members of this forum, have a low opinion of His Imperial Majesty D MacArthur. That wasn’t the general opinion of the American public at the time, and there was a significant portion of the public that were of the opinion that he was not only a great leader, but also a far better man to be President of the United States, than the incumbent. Thanks to his personal propaganda machine, and that of much of the American Republican Party, his numerous faults and failures were covered up. While he isn’t going to achieve the fame ITTL that he did in ours, should he survive and be evaluated, he will be a significant thorn in the side of the American President, and the higher levels of the American Army. Unlike in Britain where since the English Civil War, and later the Premiership of Wellington, there has been a general agreement, especially among the political class of not having a former general as Prime Minister. And the question of who should be given command of His Majesty’s forces, is nominally one that is answered by ether the Secretary of State for War, or the Prime Minister. In America such questions are far more political, with even promotions above a certain rank, requiring Congressional approval. FDR is going to have to tread very carefully in his treatment of MacArthur, he can not just dismiss him and relegate him to the benches, as Winston was able to with those generals who displeased him.
The recent events in Burma, have arisen as a result of the general failure of the Japanese to fore fill their plan. The hold ups in Malaya have meant that the troops to exploit their original success in Burma, have been diverted to Malaya, and the campaign is now on hold awaiting the results of the Malayan campaign. This has allowed the British forces to enact a limited counter attack, against a very weak Japanese force, that has poor support and supply. While the British are not in a any position right now to carry out a major attack against the Japanese, they lack the resources and manpower at this time. However despite what has been said, the situation in Burma is very different to that which applied in the American attack on the Island of Guadalcanal. Unlike Guadalcanal, the areas of Southern Burma that have been attacked, have very little access to supplies, given that the local infrastructure is basically non existent. Prior to the outbreak of the war, the normal method of supplying this region, was by small coastal shipping. And it is the British that controls all coastal shipping, and the Japanese are reliant on basically human porters and animal carts from Thailand, over very difficult country. There is no possibility of the Japanese being able to provide major support to the area, ether on the ground or in the air. Note without the capture of Singapore, there is absolutely no chance of the Japanese Navy being able to intervene. Therefore the only threat that the RN faces is from the air, and thus is basically free to manoeuvre wherever it chooses. In addition for the Japanese to launch a series of successful air strikes against the British fleet, they would have to withdraw aviation units from the ongoing operations in Malaya. The most important part of this operation is the reestablish of the airfield at Victoria Point, which will once again allow short range aircraft to transit by air from India/Burma to Malaya/Singapore.
RR.
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