REDUX: Place In The Sun: What If Italy Joined The Central Powers?

[weasel_airlift]

Well, a Colonel is probably afforded much more thought than your average conscript, so I don't think we can take that as a standard.

Perhaps, but he was allowed to stay in Germany, so it's not out of the question. That, and he's still only a colonel.

It requires a bit of finesse, which might mean it's out of reach, but the Germans saw the mutiny take place before their very eyes. So, with a bit of chatting with their prisoners, they should have a very good idea of what's going on. So this is where they start making offers. Send delegations under flag of truce. In the hearing of some of the men, make offers. Surrender, come sit out the rest of the war in a dry POW camp, with three hots. It is probably advisable to have the POWs do gardening, to keep them busy and provide some of their own food. After the war, melt back into France if you like, or stay in Germany, or Germany will help them migrate to the place of their choice.

 

[Knightmare]

It requires a bit of finesse, which might mean it's out of reach, but the Germans saw the mutiny take place before their very eyes. So, with a bit of chatting with their prisoners, they should have a very good idea of what's going on. So this is where they start making offers. Send delegations under flag of truce. In the hearing of some of the men, make offers. Surrender, come sit out the rest of the war in a dry POW camp, with three hots. It is probably advisable to have the POWs do gardening, to keep them busy and provide some of their own food. After the war, melt back into France if you like, or stay in Germany, or Germany will help them migrate to the place of their choice.

Heck, have them help farm, like what the US did. Keeps them occupied, and a lot of them are farmers anyway.

 

[bguy]

It requires a bit of finesse, which might mean it's out of reach, but the Germans saw the mutiny take place before their very eyes. So, with a bit of chatting with their prisoners, they should have a very good idea of what's going on. So this is where they start making offers. Send delegations under flag of truce. In the hearing of some of the men, make offers. Surrender, come sit out the rest of the war in a dry POW camp, with three hots.

Taking advantage of a flag of truce to try and induce mutiny in the other's side forces voids the protection of parley. The French would be entitled to take prisoner any delegation that tried such a trick (and to shoot them if they resisted being detained.)

Surrender negotiations also don't typically take place in front of ones troops precisely because no competent commander is going to give the enemy a free shot at trying to demoralize their troops. Standard practice for surrender negotiations is for the commander (and his trusted aides/subordinate commanders) to meet with the enemy delegation in private (this would usually happen if the commander has already decided to surrender and is just negotiating on the precise terms of the surrender) or to require the enemy to submit their proposed terms in writing (which only the commander will be allowed to see.)

 

[NoMommsen]

... Standard practice for surrender negotiations is for the commander (and his trusted aides/subordinate commanders) to meet with the enemy delegation in private (this would usually happen if the commander has already decided to surrender and is just negotiating on the precise terms of the surrender) or to require the enemy to submit their proposed terms in writing (which only the commander will be allowed to see.)

... and that's written into which law book nobody dares to violate? ... even under conditions of war?

 

[Belka DNW]

Taking advantage of a flag of truce to try and induce mutiny in the other's side forces voids the protection of parley. The French would be entitled to take prisoner any delegation that tried such a trick (and to shoot them if they resisted being detained.)

Surrender negotiations also don't typically take place in front of ones troops precisely because no competent commander is going to give the enemy a free shot at trying to demoralize their troops. Standard practice for surrender negotiations is for the commander (and his trusted aides/subordinate commanders) to meet with the enemy delegation in private (this would usually happen if the commander has already decided to surrender and is just negotiating on the precise terms of the surrender) or to require the enemy to submit their proposed terms in writing (which only the commander will be allowed to see.)

The German colonel wasn't trying to incite anything, he just pointed out the obvious and the French troops took action when they realized their superiors would get them killed.

 

[TRH]

The German colonel wasn't trying to incite anything, he just pointed out the obvious and the French troops took action when they realized their superiors would get them killed.

Yes, but weasel_airlift was suggesting inciting mutinies on purpose in the future under the guise of negotiations.

 

[weasel_airlift]

Yes, but weasel_airlift was suggesting inciting mutinies on purpose in the future under the guise of negotiations.

Oh goodness, no. That wouldn't be proper at all. All I propose is under truce, offer negotiations, pointing out that they have done all that brave men can do, and wouldn't it be better to sit out the rest of the war in the relative comfort of a POW camp, rather than take another artillery bombardment?

You are of course correct in that such negotiations are between officers only. And generally, unless things are falling apart, the officer will refuse to even talk about it. However, the fact that such was offered will get around to the line troops.

 

[RedLegion]

And generally, unless things are falling apart, the officer will refuse to even talk about it. However, the fact that such was offered will get around to the line troops.

I don't know if the Germans already have the technology for it, but there is always the Soviet tactic of blasting call of surrender and propaganda at the enemies using loudspeakers.
Or, even simpler, throw leaflets from reconnaissance planes like in the Gulf war.
BTW, what's D'annunzio doing? No daring exploit to keep the soldier's spirit up yet?

 

[weasel_airlift]

I don't know if the Germans already have the technology for it, but there is always the Soviet tactic of blasting call of surrender and propaganda at the enemies using loudspeakers.
Or, even simpler, throw leaflets from reconnaissance planes like in the Gulf war.
BTW, what's D'annunzio doing? No daring exploit to keep the soldier's spirit up yet?

I had thought about leaflets, but wasn't sure how that would work out.

 

[bguy]

... and that's written into which law book nobody dares to violate? ... even under conditions of war?

I'm not saying it would never happen, but it would take an especially incompetent commander to allow an enemy parlementaire the chance to present his surrender terms within earshot of their troops. Article 44 of the Brussels Declaration of 1874 allowed commanders to take necessary precautions when receiving parlemenataires to keep them from abusing their position to gain a military advantage, so it was obviously recognized by the time of World War 1 that commanders needed to keep parlementaires in check,
and it's not like the idea of a combatant trying to spread dissension among the other side's troops would be some novel idea in World War 1. Such tactics have been part of warfare for as long as there has been warfare.

 

[Gabingston]

Can I get an F in the chat for France?
F

 

[pls don't ban me]

France is basically defeated.
with this mutinies going on, the german can turn their attention to Russia whil living the italians to push on the alps and distract the entente.
if Nice/Nizza falls Italy has an opening to push for montepellier as there is a clear opening. with the french being already heavily reduced and now also experiencing mutinies...

 

[Grammar Kaiser]

Honestly , the Germans don't need to incite mutiny in French army. Once the soldiers hear of the mutiny that already occurred, they'll just mutiny on their own if they're inclined to.

 

[prester.john208]

Honestly , the Germans don't need to incite mutiny in French army. Once the soldiers hear of the mutiny that already occurred, they'll just mutiny on their own if they're inclined to.

Do they promote Petain or let Joffre turn loose the firing squads?

 

[Grammar Kaiser]

I think Petain has been thoroughly cast out despite nothing bad officially happening in his direction (asides enemy action, obviously).

They might let Joffre roll out the firing squads, as long as they aren't also on mutiny.

 

[weasel_airlift]

They might let Joffre roll out the firing squads, as long as they aren't also on mutiny.

I see no way that could backfire.

The executions will continue until morale improves!

 

[Wedgekree]

Wow, expected but messy. Falkenheyn was completely right when it came to the strategic picture. Advance to defensive ground, dig in.. And this is the.. Second time in the war we've seen an actual pocket on the Western front (I think there are two divisions) being isolated and cut off. Morale cratering in it will only get worse. The Germans just have to maintain the seige lines, not advance..

Between this and Nice, the French have no real reserves and thier only option is to give up the territory (and the forces in them) and pull back and abandon areas to defend. Neither of which is really palpatable as it'd topple the government.

 

[Gudestein]

The big difference from OTL is that the Germans know the French morale is broken. Its time to advance and break them before they recover. Its not like they will counterattack

 

[TRH]

The big difference from OTL is that the Germans know the French morale is broken. Its time to advance and break them before they recover. Its not like they will counterattack

Doesn't it make more sense to hit the British if possible? Even in this state the French won't just lie down and die if under attack themselves.

 

[Gudestein]

Doesn't it make more sense to hit the British if possible? Even in this state the French won't just lie down and die if under attack themselves.

Im not pretending to be a specialist here, but as I understand it then defense in WW1 relied on counterattacks. If they don’t happen the front will break and that’s preferable to hitting the British and letting the French rest and recover.