Seconded. I would also add how there is a "ring structure" of sorts. The original projetc was to have at least four "Fathers of Italy": Ferdinand, Cavour, Garibaldi and Mazzini (the latter two with a vastly different role than OTL). Then it became "all about Ferdinand", with only Cavour surviving (and even him because it is Cavour and because of his friendship to Ferdinand). Presently, while Ferdinand remains prevalent, we are giving a prominent role also to people that OTL were... sidelined, to say the least (or were not born at all, as the Princess of our hearts Maria Cristina). Funny how the creating process goes.
Primavera d'Italia: War, Love and Revolution
- Thread starter Tarabas
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She's a fictional character. We guessed that the death of Victor Emmanuel would have prompted Charles Albert to try and have more children, and this generation lacked a Savoy princess. That being said, some facts of her early life are modeled after OTL characters: for instance one of the quotes by her mother describing her as a child are OTL for young Victor Emmanuel.
That said, she's well on her way to become a far better monarch than Victor Emmanuel II ever was.
Sure, her existence is a bit of a trope, both in alternate history and in speculative fiction as a whole (being a young princess who also happens to be a bit rebellious) but a country like Sicily sure needs someone willing to go against the grain in general, and the grain of absentee landowners in particular.By the way @Tarabas, check out Nova Lectio's new video on the unification of Italy, I'm kinda afraid of posting it here because I could be accused of promoting conspiracy theories, since the Rothschild family features in it quite a lot.
Well, what Italy needed then (and still needs now) is a bit of fresh air, and someone who is willing to make real changes in a reasonable way. For all that, Ferdinand too is a very unusual Savoyard prince, and is going to have an even larger impact on Italy's future.That said, she's well on her way to become a far better monarch than Victor Emmanuel II ever was.
I agree with you. However, she's a lot more fun to write than the average, overly pious Savoy princess, or than her siter-in-law, who despite being the wife of our protagonist, has had little to no "screentime", so to speak. I watched the video, but I have kinda mixed feelings about it. I should watch again more calmly, there are a lor of things that he left out that to me point in a different direction, or at least, a more nuanced one. For instance, we have no reason to believe that Cavour wasn' willing to abide the Plombieres Agreement, in which the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies not only was meat to survive but alos ot be enlarged with large swathes of the Papal States. Also, the ambiguos role of Cavour in the whole "Mille" endeavour to me does not add up withe the whole "we need da cash to pay the Rothschild back" narrative the video props up.What are your thoughts on the matter?That said, she's well on her way to become a far better monarch than Victor Emmanuel II ever was.
By the way @Tarabas, check out Nova Lectio's new video on the unification of Italy, I'm kinda afraid of posting it here because I could be accused of promoting conspiracy theories, since the Rothschild family features in it quite a lot.
Indeed. And the best (or the worst, maybe) of it is that we did not even had to change him that much with respect to OTL.
Cavour was certainly not in favor of the Garibaldi's expedition, while all the other Italian players - from VEII to Mazzini - were backing it. In the end, stopping Garibaldi would have created a huge political crisis as well as a vote of no-confidence in Parliament. This is the most obvious reason for the ambiguous behavior displayed by Cavour (another reason being the fact that Garibaldi bringing down the kingdom of Two Sicilies with just a thousand volunteers was pretty unlikely, to say the least, and even in that case there was a high likelihood that Garibaldi would not have stopped, and would march on Rome). The gold reserves of the Borbone king were not on the radar for sure.
Yes, I agree with you. It is my understanding that the war *had* to happen in 1859 (Cavour, at the very least, was on a "now or never" mood) but it was the war against Austria. There were many conflicting agendas, i.e. VE's, NIII's, Cavour, Garibaldi's, but especially the latter hardly cared for the Bourbon gold, and the only one who could see or care the need for that, was not in favor of the expedition, so it is hard for me to believe that "the Rothscild were behind the Italian Unification". It is also weird because the author of the video @Neoteros is referring to is generally speaking a very good and well-prepared divulgator.
The Cavourian "now or never" was much more than a mood: it was a sharp assessment of the political atmosphere in Europe and the belief that the window of opportunity could close very easily, as well as the awareness of the looming problem of Sardinian finances, which could not be stretched further.
The Rothschild played a major role in arranging loans for all the Italian states (including the Papal States: moneylenders in the Temple anyone?) , and one of the senior lines of the family was based in Naples, where they had a bank. However, the role as moneylenders tended to be reduced starting from the 1830s, and the Rothschilds became much more active in financing railways (as a matter of fact, Cavour was a bit concerned by the ubiquitous presence of the Rothschilds in the railway business, and one of his first goal as minister of finance of Sardinia was to differentiate lenders, to avoid unduly pressures). My take is that the Rothschilds were sharp cookies, but there was no hidden conspiracy of bankers and they were not the puppet-masters: more reasonably, they were good at anticipating trends, and to invest their money accordingly
Narrative Interlude #14: a letter from Zevio
Excerpt of a letter by Alceo Taddei[1] (volunteer of the Tuscan Student Battalion) to his guardian, from the Bridge at Zevio, April1st, 1848)
Dearest Uncle, [2]
forgive my uncertain hand; I am still dizzy and excited by today's events. No, there has not been a new confrontation with the greedy Germans[3], who are happy to stay holed up in their fortresses, as the cowards they are. But the day when we will finally avenge the blood of our fellow Italians spilled by the vile Austrians shall come very soon, and this is not the hope of a daydreaming youngster, but the certainty of a man. For today I have been so blessed to meet the present and the future of Italy: Ferdinand of Savoy, the Prince of the Italians! He came to us on his way back from Venice, where the glory of the Most Serene Republic of Venice has been reborn, to tell us the wondrous tale of the insurrection of Venice, of the successful mutiny of Pola, of the fighting in Dalmatia. He never claimed any role in this unexpected string of successes, but I cannot believe he didn't play a role in them. He wanted to greet and meet in person the Student Battalion, Uncle! He said that he also felt "a student in arms-but also a student at arms". So much for the contempt we are treated by most of the Sardinian officers. But the Prince is.. different. He came among us, asking about our studies and our lives (as though he was one of us, or maybe, the Professor anyone dreams to be taught by), praising our courage and skills in battle, and I could not help but remember that in ancient times, Kings hands were believed to be hands of healers. His words, his voice, his expression, were like an ointment for our spirit. I am at a loss for better words to describe him, but now I am sure that God has finally decided to bless Italy, and send the Prince to guide us to victory!
He also seems to know everything in advance: when word came that an unrecognized cavalry regiment was coming in from the east, he did not even flinch. He looked at his watch, and said: "Perfectly on time. That's quite unexpected." And then he went to meet the strangers, who only then showed a tricolor flag. We went with him, arms raised. I took a dislike to their leader almost immediately: bold and arrogant, without even the need of saying a word. The Prince did not wait for him to speak, and asked: "Shall I presume you are pledging your life and sword to the Italian cause, dear cousin?[4]"
"If you fancy yourself a liberal, cousin, I shall be a Jacobin[5]". There was so much arrogance in that answer that many of us pointed their rifles at him (we did not know that that man was Ferdinando Carlo di Borbone[6]), but the Prince just laughed, replying:
"Very well then, so be it. Although I should warn you, cousin, that Jacobins loose their heads more often than not, while liberals... less so."
[..]
Footnotes
Dearest Uncle, [2]
forgive my uncertain hand; I am still dizzy and excited by today's events. No, there has not been a new confrontation with the greedy Germans[3], who are happy to stay holed up in their fortresses, as the cowards they are. But the day when we will finally avenge the blood of our fellow Italians spilled by the vile Austrians shall come very soon, and this is not the hope of a daydreaming youngster, but the certainty of a man. For today I have been so blessed to meet the present and the future of Italy: Ferdinand of Savoy, the Prince of the Italians! He came to us on his way back from Venice, where the glory of the Most Serene Republic of Venice has been reborn, to tell us the wondrous tale of the insurrection of Venice, of the successful mutiny of Pola, of the fighting in Dalmatia. He never claimed any role in this unexpected string of successes, but I cannot believe he didn't play a role in them. He wanted to greet and meet in person the Student Battalion, Uncle! He said that he also felt "a student in arms-but also a student at arms". So much for the contempt we are treated by most of the Sardinian officers. But the Prince is.. different. He came among us, asking about our studies and our lives (as though he was one of us, or maybe, the Professor anyone dreams to be taught by), praising our courage and skills in battle, and I could not help but remember that in ancient times, Kings hands were believed to be hands of healers. His words, his voice, his expression, were like an ointment for our spirit. I am at a loss for better words to describe him, but now I am sure that God has finally decided to bless Italy, and send the Prince to guide us to victory!
He also seems to know everything in advance: when word came that an unrecognized cavalry regiment was coming in from the east, he did not even flinch. He looked at his watch, and said: "Perfectly on time. That's quite unexpected." And then he went to meet the strangers, who only then showed a tricolor flag. We went with him, arms raised. I took a dislike to their leader almost immediately: bold and arrogant, without even the need of saying a word. The Prince did not wait for him to speak, and asked: "Shall I presume you are pledging your life and sword to the Italian cause, dear cousin?[4]"
"If you fancy yourself a liberal, cousin, I shall be a Jacobin[5]". There was so much arrogance in that answer that many of us pointed their rifles at him (we did not know that that man was Ferdinando Carlo di Borbone[6]), but the Prince just laughed, replying:
"Very well then, so be it. Although I should warn you, cousin, that Jacobins loose their heads more often than not, while liberals... less so."
[..]
Footnotes
- An OTL member of the Tuscan Student Battalion
- Here "uncle" is used to show affection
- This expression is taken from an OTL letter by Alceo
- Members of ruling houses often called themselves "cousins", it seemed fit in this context
- Reportedly, Ferdinando Carlo said this line in 1847, when he decided to fly a tricolor flag from the Lucchese barracks during an insurrection of the city
- Heir to the Duchy of Parma. OTL, he did leave Parma with a cavalry regiment, to pledge his sword to Charles Albert, but he did not manage to meet him, and was taken into custody by the Lombard provisional government for a month, then released after British intercession and sent to London. ITTL, he was a bit more lucky and managed to arrive in Isola della Scala, although he was too late for the battle of Goito
Made in Tarabas & @LordKalvan
AFAIK, Parma was one of the Habsburg satellite states in Italy that was managed better, so Ferdinando Carlo will most likely keep a crown on his head.
That said, the survival of one or more of the Emilian duchies might ironically prevent the birth of Emilia as a distinct region of Italy - since it had been considered as Lombard as the Oltrepò until after the unification of the peninsula, when the former duchies were merged into one administrative unit.
That said, the survival of one or more of the Emilian duchies might ironically prevent the birth of Emilia as a distinct region of Italy - since it had been considered as Lombard as the Oltrepò until after the unification of the peninsula, when the former duchies were merged into one administrative unit.
FC was a pretty interesting fellow, and to some degree, I believe he was honestly sympathetic to the Italian cause. For sure, we know that openly anti-austrian, to his father's dismay, and deeply interested in the military (during his tenure as Carlo III, the Parmesan army grew so much as to oversize). Of course, his rush towards the front is also a bid for a crown; only time will tell if he is successful.
Nice thoughts on the Emilian "identity": I confess i did not know the bit regarding the "Lombardness" of the Duchies, although it does ring a bell to me. I will keep that in mind, thanks!
Ferdinando Carlo may manage to keep a crown on his head, since ITTL has managed to offer his sword to the guy who is winning the war (although I would guess that he was more interested in hunting for glory on the battlefield rather than in the future asset of Italy). Of course he has also to survive the war, which is not a given. In any case, his very pregnant wife is on the way to Florence, and is expected to give birth in 3 months. Time will tell
Parma and Piacenza were certainly regarded as an extension of Lombardy beyond the Po river, and this was true for Modena and Reggio too (although in a lesser measure for Modena, which had been associated with the house of Este for centuries). The other half of Emilia (Bologna and Ferrara) had quite a different history, and the Lombard influence was much weaker. There is no real reason ITTL to create again a brand new administrative unit, like it was done OTL.
OTL Federico Carlo studied for a couple of years in Turin, at the Military Academy, but failed to impress either Carlo Alberto or Vittorio Emanuele with his intellectual achievements (and it was a low bar, since Vittorio Emanuele was not very interested in intellectual pursuits either).FC was a pretty interesting fellow, and to some degree, I believe he was honestly sympathetic to the Italian cause. For sure, we know that openly anti-austrian, to his father's dismay, and deeply interested in the military (during his tenure as Carlo III, the Parmesan army grew so much as to oversize). Of course, his rush towards the front is also a bid for a crown; only time will tell if he is successful.
Nice thoughts on the Emilian "identity": I confess i did not know the bit regarding the "Lombardness" of the Duchies, although it does ring a bell to me. I will keep that in mind, thanks!
After his return to Parma, his father put him in charge of the army, more or less to keep him occupied and happy. I am pretty skeptic that he had thought very much about the Italian cause, but certainly he hated the Austrians, who had been quite overbearing since his father regained Parma after the death of Marie Louise.
FC was a pretty interesting fellow, and to some degree, I believe he was honestly sympathetic to the Italian cause. For sure, we know that openly anti-austrian, to his father's dismay, and deeply interested in the military (during his tenure as Carlo III, the Parmesan army grew so much as to oversize). Of course, his rush towards the front is also a bid for a crown; only time will tell if he is successful.
Nice thoughts on the Emilian "identity": I confess i did not know the bit regarding the "Lombardness" of the Duchies, although it does ring a bell to me. I will keep that in mind, thanks!
Reggio Emilia was called Reggio di Lombardia until unification, for example. The Grana/Parmigiano feud will be a derby of sorts, it seems.
I have a strong feeling that Ferdinand ITTL has been even less impressed by FC, although he might have been sharper in judging the latter personality. I am somehow surprised that VE and FC did not get along together, on the surface the two seem to have a lot in common (temper, love for the military, taverns and gallant adventures), but maybe were just TOO similar to like each other.
Reggio Emilia was called Reggio di Lombardia until unification, for example. The Grana/Parmigiano feud will be a derby of sorts, it seems.
Interesting! Who knows how Reggio will be dubbed ITTL
I guess that ITTL many feuds will become derby, so to speak, to a higher degree than OTL We too now have our own flag,
unlike once, yellow and black
on the candid linen of the new banner
waves a green laurel wreath,
while in the coward blood of our tyrants
the zone of the third color is dyed.
-Chant of the Insurgents, Arnaldo Fusinato
You go, Ferdinand.
I wonder if the idea of him and Cavour being friends was born from the rocky relationship that he and VEII had IOTL?
unlike once, yellow and black
on the candid linen of the new banner
waves a green laurel wreath,
while in the coward blood of our tyrants
the zone of the third color is dyed.
-Chant of the Insurgents, Arnaldo Fusinato
You go, Ferdinand.
I wonder if the idea of him and Cavour being friends was born from the rocky relationship that he and VEII had IOTL?
Thanks for your comment, and kudos for Fusinato's quote! Regarding your question, you are absolutely right: that is the OOC reason for this friendship, which has also the side effect of having Cavour already "on board" (with a non-official role, for now) on the key phases of 1848.
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