I hear the Spain or Belgium are lovely :rolleyes:, probably the former is more conservative and more to the Curia's liking.
IOTL, Spain landed 9000 men in Gaeta in 1849, at the same time that the French expedition corps landed in Civitavecchia and the Austrians were rampaging in Central Italy.
A little bird told me it is very unlikely those events are going to happen ITTL, but you never know ;)
 

Arrix85

Donor
IOTL, Spain landed 9000 men in Gaeta in 1849, at the same time that the French expedition corps landed in Civitavecchia and the Austrians were rampaging in Central Italy.
A little bird told me it is very unlikely those events are going to happen ITTL, but you never know ;)
Didn't know about the Spanish intervention. Kinda surprised to see them so active (In my mind about Spain there is a huge blind spot between 1821 and 1898, I've realized). Please send the Pope there to alleviate my ignorance! 😜
 
Didn't know about the Spanish intervention. Kinda surprised to see them so active (In my mind about Spain there is a huge blind spot between 1821 and 1898, I've realized). Please send the Pope there to alleviate my ignorance! 😜
AFAIK, the Spanish Expeditionary Corp never saw action in Latium (same as the Austrians), since Louis Napoleon wanted no competition to share the "glory" for the restoration of the Pope. My guess is that Spain jumped on the band-wagon to appease Spanish catholics (the Carlist war has ended not long before), but without any keen interest in fighting
 
A Sunday teaser for you guys. Enjoy:

The End of the Beginning
Part 3: Vom Krieg, L'Art de la Guerre and Case Suez

Verona, Guardia Nuova - 10 May 1848, Late Morning

"Of course I had plans prepared for a Case Tiber: it was a very unlikely eventuality, I was very confident that General Ferrari would have restored law and order in Rome with ease. However, it is always be better to be prepared, since war is very different from other human endeavors. As Karl von Clausewitz wrote in his seminal book: "Everything in war is simple, but the simplest thing is difficult. The difficulties accumulate and end by producing a kind of friction that is inconceivable unless one has experienced war." I found these words eminently sound, and accordingly I have always striven to plan in advance, and to be prepared for the unexpected or the unlikely. It is also a very good tool to train the young officers of the General Staff, teaching them to plan carefully before acting.
After I got the news that Ferrari had managed his task, but also that the Pope had left Rome for Gaeta, I had Case Tiber updated to factor in the new events: now it covers a potential Neapolitan invasion of Latium.
While we are on the subject of books and the art of war, there is another one which I discovered by happenstance in the library of the Royal Palace in Turin: it's titled "L'Art de la Guerre" (1), and it was translated from the original Chinese text some 70 years ago by a French Jesuit returned from China. The translator claims the original text was written by a famous Chinese general centuries before the birth of Christ: I don't really know about that, but the book is full of practical suggestions, some of which I have been able to put in practice with good results.
“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”: my plan for the dash to Goito took inspiration from these words. Or take my impromptu visit to Venice after the battle. There is another quote which I found applicable as well: “In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity”. There was chaos in Veneto, and therefore I went to look for opportunities: you know the rest. But the best quote is the one which inspired my strategy after Goito: “Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.”. This is what happened with the capitulation of Verona, but also the immediate dispatch of the Expeditionary Force to Friuli comes out of a similar approach. Nugent's army in Gorizia was effectively sterilized before it could play a role in the war. Admittedly, two battles had to be fought, but the enemy was in both cases forced to fight on a ground of our choosing, and the outcome was never in doubt.

But enough with self-praise and aggrandizement. I have heard that you have been impressing a number of young officers in your service. Are you building your own army, Camillo?" The smile on the lips of the prince took away any sting from the question
 
Now that Ferdinando's taking strategic advice from Sun Tzu, I wonder how will China fare here - the Qing monarchy was a shambling corpse already by 1848.
 
Now that Ferdinando's taking strategic advice from Sun Tzu, I wonder how will China fare here - the Qing monarchy was a shambling corpse already by 1848.
I am afraid that - for the time being - China is going exactly like IOTL.
OTOH, I can forecast an Italian interest in trade with the Far East, and this may (or may not) lead to changes in China too.
We'll have to see how it plays.
 
There was a small town in Veneto that briefly did just that, in the 20th century. :p
This gave me "Italy is the country I love" feels (not because of the original quote, but because I really loved the story).
I am afraid that - for the time being - China is going exactly like IOTL.
OTOH, I can forecast an Italian interest in trade with the Far East, and this may (or may not) lead to changes in China too.
We'll have to see how it plays.
Quoting @LordKalvan here. Anyway, any conceivable Italian "action" this far will take some 15/20 years to say the very least. And there are a lot of interesting possibilities justo closer to home...
 
I suppose the Pope could unofficially settle in Gaeta for a while, until one of his successors stops sulking and returns to Rome. Or there's always the traditional exile in Avignon. Or Elba has been used as an exile within memory. Malta is also an option, since it's still not that important to the British and was ruled by the Hospitallers until 1798, the Brits might be willing to give/loan it to the Papacy in exchange for basing rights and the church's support in Ireland.

Overall, I think the 'sulk in Gaeta for a few decades then get over it' option is the most likely.
 
I suppose the Pope could unofficially settle in Gaeta for a while, until one of his successors stops sulking and returns to Rome. Or there's always the traditional exile in Avignon. Or Elba has been used as an exile within memory. Malta is also an option, since it's still not that important to the British and was ruled by the Hospitallers until 1798, the Brits might be willing to give/loan it to the Papacy in exchange for basing rights and the church's support in Ireland.

Overall, I think the 'sulk in Gaeta for a few decades then get over it' option is the most likely.
I have given already too many hints. about the future of the Pope. I am afraid that you will have to be patient, and see how the narrative will develop.
A Pope in Malta is as likely as a Pope in St. Helen, though.
Avignon was never restored as a Papal Fief either.
 
Narrative Interlude #54: The End of the Beginning-Part 3
The End of the Beginning
Part 3: Vom Krieg, L'Art de la Guerre and Case Suez

Verona, Guardia Nuova - 10 May 1848, Late Morning

"Of course I had plans prepared for a Case Tiber: it was a very unlikely eventuality, I was very confident that General Ferrari would have restored law and order in Rome with ease. However, it is always be better to be prepared, since war is very different from other human endeavors. As Karl von Clausewitz wrote in his seminal book: "Everything in war is simple, but the simplest thing is difficult. The difficulties accumulate and end by producing a kind of friction that is inconceivable unless one has experienced war." I found these words eminently sound, and accordingly I have always striven to plan in advance, and to be prepared for the unexpected or the unlikely. It is also a very good tool to train the young officers of the General Staff, teaching them to plan carefully before acting.
After I got the news that Ferrari had managed his task, but also that the Pope had left Rome for Gaeta, I had Case Tiber updated to factor in the new events: now it covers a potential Neapolitan invasion of Latium.
While we are on the subject of books and the art of war, there is another one which I discovered by happenstance in the library of the Royal Palace in Turin: it's titled "L'Art de la Guerre" (1), and it was translated from the original Chinese text some 70 years ago by a French Jesuit returned from China. The translator claims the original text was written by a famous Chinese general centuries before the birth of Christ: I don't really know about that, but the book is full of practical suggestions, some of which I have been able to put in practice with good results.
“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”: my plan for the dash to Goito took inspiration from these words. Or take my impromptu visit to Venice after the battle. There is another quote which I found applicable as well: “In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity”. There was chaos in Veneto, and therefore I went to look for opportunities: you know the rest. But the best quote is the one which inspired my strategy after Goito: “Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.”. This is what happened with the capitulation of Verona, but also the immediate dispatch of the Expeditionary Force to Friuli comes out of a similar approach. Nugent's army in Gorizia was effectively sterilized before it could play a role in the war. Admittedly, two battles had to be fought, but the enemy was in both cases forced to fight on a ground of our choosing, and the outcome was never in doubt.

But enough with self-praise and aggrandizement. I have heard that you have been impressing a number of young officers in your service. Are you building your own army, Camillo?" The smile on the lips of the prince took away any sting from the question.

Cavour laughed: "You caught me, Ferdinando, but I can assure you I am not preparing any coup. My problem was that there are too many things I have to take care of, here in Verona, obviously, but also in other Italian capitals and even abroad. I have always had a good number of friends, well placed in position where they can keep me abreast : Scialoia, Casati and Mamiani, for example, or Princess Belgioioso, but also my uncles in Geneva, and many new friendships found in Isola della Scala, like the redoubtable count Mocenigo or the learned professors Ferrari and Montanelli. Even with these people helping me to keep track of events, I needed a few aides on whom I might rely. My nephew Augusto has come to the rescue, introducing to me a number of young officers who are currently quartered in Verona. Some of them are truly precious gems, who only need to be polished a bit and nudged a little. I do anticipate that these men will serve well the Confederation once the war is over.
I have been interacting with them for just a couple of weeks or so, but I have been deeply impressed by their dedication and their energy. In some ways, they remember me of myself, when I was young, although they are luckier than me having the opportunity to fight for a worthy cause and taste the heady wine of victory. At the same age, I was a bit like a ship lost at sea: the end of the reign of Carlo Felice and the first years of your father's reign were not a good time for me, even leaving aside ... never mind what (2). The past is a closed book."

Camillo stopped for a moment, a sad expression on his face. He recovered quickly, and continued:
"Anyway, there are two of them whom I consider the cream of a good crop: Costantino Nigra (3) and Isacco Artom (4). The former is barely 20 years old, born in Villa Castelnuovo, near Turin, of a bourgeoise family. He was studying law at the university of Turin, but enrolled in the army when the war started. I understand he fought at the battle of Goito, where he was slightly wounded.
The latter is one year younger, and was born in Asti, of a rich Jewish family. He also started to study law at the university, but he had to go to Pisa, since Jews were not allowed to enroll at the university of Turin before your father decreed their emancipation a couple of months ago. He was studying under prof. Montanelli, who has a lot of consideration for him: no surprise that he also enrolled at the start of the war, in the Volunteer Battalion he raised and commanded. Isacco fought with distinction at the bridge of Zevio.
A bit outside of the inner circle, there is Major Luigi Corsi, eldest son of Marquess Corsi from Savona. He raised and commanded a Volunteer Corps from Genoa, who participated at the siege of Mantua."

"I know Major Corsi" Ferdinando interjected "He is the officer who court-martialed and hanged a squad of Austrian stragglers who were caught committing atrocities on a farm close to Mantua. I read his report, and endorsed his actions in full. Fighting a war is no license to behave like animals."

"Major Corsi is a good officer, from what I know of him" Camillo continued "However what is most interesting for me is that his family owns a largish shipping company in Savona: I regard him as my own advisor in terms of the nuts-and-bolts of sea commerce. Of course he is still commanding his battalion, so he cannot work for me full time, but every bit helps. Anyway, the mention of Major Corsi and sea commerce has reminded me of a very interesting man who arrived in Verona a week ago: Luigi Negrelli (5). He was introduced to me by signor Cattaneo, who had in the past consulted with him in regards to the Venice to Milan railway. Signor Negrelli is an engineer of European renown, who has worked all over Central Europe in the field of large infrastructures: roads, bridges, hydraulic works and obviously railways. You know my love for railways, which I consider the sinews for the industrialization of the country as well as a great boost to commerce, so I had no hesitation in giving him a very warm welcome. There were some pointed comments about this welcome, since sig. Negrelli was born in Trentino, studied at Innsbruck and is an Austrian citizen. I don't hold his birthplace or his citizenship against him, after all all the people living in Lombardy and Venetia were Austrian citizens until now: the important thing is to see if they accept the new world which has been born, of if they don't. I believe that sig. Negrelli is an intelligent man who has read the writing on the wall: after the end of the war, every Italian living in the Austrian empire will live under a cloud of suspicion; even more importantly, Cattaneo knows of my keen interest in infrastructures, and will have made sure that Negrelli is well aware of it. The interesting thing is that talking with Negrelli I discovered that in 1847 he had submitted a technical proposal for a canal through which ships could sail from the Mediterranean to the Red sea, and vice versa obviously, and his project had been chosen by the technical commission in charge for the review of different proposals. It looked very interesting to me, but I also checked with Major Corsi to see what he would think of such a venture: he was absolutely ecstatic, and elaborated at length on the benefits which Italy would gain if such a canal were to be built, in terms of commerce with India and the Far East. I think you should add this project to yours to-do list, Ferdinando. Call it Case Suez, since you have invented this kind of wording, and Suez is the Red sea end of the canal. Be warned, though: the Khedive of Egypt is obviously supportive of such a project, the French are interested too, or at least were before this wave of revolutions, but the British don't look to be in favor (6). I think it is because they are not so eager to give France an opportunity to easily send warships to the Indian Ocean."

"You are widening the range of your interests, Camillo. I'll make a note of this Suez Canal, and we'll see how things play out. I do agree with you that a canal connecting the Mediterranean and the Red Sea would present a significant opportunity for us.
Choosing young and bright assistants to help you carry the weight - and I am aware of the weight I am placing on your shoulders, Camillo - is a necessary step which will hopefully bear fruits: the young men who have volunteered to fight for the idea of a free and united Italy are the ones we are going to need in the next few years, if we truly want to make the Confederation work. Cast your nets wider, though: look also for suitable candidates from other parts of Italy, not just Sardinia."

Footnotes
  1. The writings of Sun Tzu were translated in Paris in 1772 by Father Amiot, a French Jesuit returned after many years in China. It was titled "L'Art de la Guerre", which is apparently a mistranslation, since the original title was something like "Competitive Methods". An unconfirmed legend tells that a young Napoleon found and read with interest the book.
  2. The reference is to the love story that Cavour had with the Marquise Anna Schiaffino Giustiniani, started when he was sent to Genoa in 1830, and continued on and off during the following decade. The Marquise was already married, and older than Cavour, but this relation had a strong impact on him.
  3. Costantino Nigra is a historical character, who entered in Cavour's orbit in IOTL 1852, and was strongly recommended to him by Massimo D'Azeglio. IOTL, the career of Nigra started with the war of Crimea, and later on when he was posted to Paris in the critical year of 1858 to manage Louis Napoleon. ITTL, Cavour and Nigra meet each other 4 years earlier, and in different circumstances.
  4. Isacco Artom is a historical character, who entered in Cavour's orbit in IOTL 1855, when he replaced Costantino Nigra, who was sent in a mission to Paris, as private secretary of Cavour. Artom had a very impressive career at the Foreign Ministry, and was the first Italian Jew to be sent abroad in a diplomatic position.
  5. Luigi Negrelli is a historical character, who was born in Fiera di Primiero, near Trento, in 1799. He worked in different countries in Central Europe (Austria, Switzerland, Rhine Lands and in 1840 was appointed Inspector General of all Austrian railways. He submitted a project to Lesseps in 1847, which was chosen for implementation, but the outbreak of revolutions put a stop to it. After 1849, he was posted in Lombardy, to supervise all the the infrastructures of Lombardy-Venetia, but a couple of years later was forced to resign, being (wrongly) considered politically unreliable.
  6. The British were in favor of a railway between Port Said and Port Suez
 

Arrix85

Donor
Oh, yes. I wonder if the presence of a third player, beside the French and the Britich, will change Egypt's history (incurring into debt and then falling under British protectorate). At least, hello Italian trading quarter in Alexandria?
 
Oh, yes. I wonder if the presence of a third player, beside the French and the Britich, will change Egypt's history (incurring into debt and then falling under British protectorate). At least, hello Italian trading quarter in Alexandria?
"If you can see into the seeds of time, and say which grain will grow, and which will not,,,"
Very early days, but it certainly is a possible outcome :)
 
Building the Suez canal in the 1840s would be incredibly expensive, especially for a new country on shaky economic ground... :p
 
Building the Suez canal in the 1840s would be incredibly expensive, especially for a new country on shaky economic ground... :p
It will be in the 1850s, once the dust has settled in Europe and the long boom starts. In any case, it would not be something that Italy can tackle on its own. The most likely outcome is a joint stock company, with the Khedive of Egypt holding at least 50% of the shares. What changes here is that Italy (and possibly UK too) would show an early interest, and put some diplomatic pressure: the shareholders would not be state entities, at least at the beginning.
 

Arrix85

Donor
Building the Suez canal in the 1840s would be incredibly expensive, especially for a new country on shaky economic ground... :p
I don't think that's the case . Italian Interest may get things started a little earlier (I guess shares of the bulding company will be pretty popular in Italy (like they were in France, or almost; just a hint of interest by Ferdinand will go a long way), still the '60s, I would venture.
 
I don't think that's the case . Italian Interest may get things started a little earlier (I guess shares of the bulding company will be pretty popular in Italy (like they were in France, or almost; just a hint of interest by Ferdinand will go a long way), still the '60s, I would venture.
OTL digging the channel took 10 years or so IIRC.
TTL, the inauguration will happen 4 or 5 years earlier, I guess 1864 or 1865.
Verdi will write the Aida a bit earlier
 

Arrix85

Donor
Here's an article I found about Venetians' relationship with Egypt (it's about a exhibit in 2011). There are a couple of interesting nuggets in there (like maybe ITTL the biggest Ancient Egypt museum outside of Egypt maybe in Venice? Also this Giovanni Miani looks interesting.


The end of the article would be WAY DIFFERENT ittl, with the canal re-kindling Venetian "longing" for the Far East.
 
Here's an article I found about Venetians' relationship with Egypt (it's about a exhibit in 2011). There are a couple of interesting nuggets in there (like maybe ITTL the biggest Ancient Egypt museum outside of Egypt maybe in Venice? Also this Giovanni Miani looks interesting.


The end of the article would be WAY DIFFERENT ittl, with the canal re-kindling Venetian "longing" for the Far East.
Interesting, although I hoped for some juicy news about the canal; :(

The article is on a paywall, but it can be found also here free: http://www.roderickconwaymorris.com/Articles/484.html
 
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