Map Thread XXI

[Sarthak]

RIVALS FOREVER! - The Ottoman Empire and the Safavid Empire

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This is a map/grapic showing the Ottoman Empire and Safavid Iran, both of which manage to survive and modernize against threats from each other, and from foreign powers such as the Russians and other European colonial powers. Having let go off their enmity with one another after the Ottoman-Iranian Treaty of Eternal Friendship signed in 1885, over the years, the Ottomans and Iranians founded the Pact of Baghdad in 1911, as a unified force of Islam against the encroaching colonial presence of the Europeans and Americans in Africa and Asia. The Ottomans and Iranians fought together arms in arms against the Empire of Greater Germany in the 1st Great War, and the Holy Eurasian Empire in the 2nd Great War solidifying the pact. During the Undeclared War of 1949 - 1991, the Ottomans and Safavids won their un-confrontational fight against the Americans with the collapse of the United Federated American States. Today, the two powers are considered to be the hegemons of the Middle East. Despite their now practical alliance, their age old rivalry has today developed into the sense of the civic nationalism of both countries, with both nationalities taking it out in different fields such as sports and economic competition with one another.

Thoughts and comments?

 

[PobreCesar]

The red are countries with a world record for the country.

So France is the only member of the UN Permanent Security Council without one?
ah! quel outrage
Quels transports il doit exciter!

On a completely different note...

Long ago I tried to make a map that featured all the areas Europe traditionally called "the East" doing well at their expense. I had no clear POD in mind and the map turned into a bit of a mess with the Mughals controlling England and the Japanese controlling bits of the South Indian coastline. I may never finish that, but I was pleased with the borders for China so I worked them into this tonight in a fit of footnoting. It appears I have jumped on the bandwagon of making needlessly large countries and colouring in nothing else on the whole face of the Earth. Well, it's an honorable bandwagon.

 

[traveller76]

RIVALS FOREVER! - The Ottoman Empire and the Safavid Empire

​

This is a map/grapic showing the Ottoman Empire and Safavid Iran, both of which manage to survive and modernize against threats from each other, and from foreign powers such as the Russians and other European colonial powers. Having let go off their enmity with one another after the Ottoman-Iranian Treaty of Eternal Friendship signed in 1885, over the years, the Ottomans and Iranians founded the Pact of Baghdad in 1911, as a unified force of Islam against the encroaching colonial presence of the Europeans and Americans in Africa and Asia. The Ottomans and Iranians fought together arms in arms against the Empire of Greater Germany in the 1st Great War, and the Holy Eurasian Empire in the 2nd Great War solidifying the pact. During the Undeclared War of 1949 - 1991, the Ottomans and Safavids won their un-confrontational fight against the Americans with the collapse of the United Federated American States. Today, the two powers are considered to be the hegemons of the Middle East. Despite their now practical alliance, their age old rivalry has today developed into the sense of the civic nationalism of both countries, with both nationalities taking it out in different fields such as sports and economic competition with one another.

Thoughts and comments?

I would like to see more of this universe.

 

[B_Munro]

collapse of the United Federated American States.

Some sort of Soviet Union equivalent?

Edit: I'd make Iran a bit smaller and leave out Kabul. That's a lot of particularly hard to govern Sunnis under the rule of a Shi'a state.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Thoughts and comments?

Needs more Ottomans and Persia.

 

[PierceJJones]

The future map of Earth from my current story “Defiance of the Sith” approximately in 0BY/2041 CE. Note: Colors may define general spheres of infulence and not control. As defined by the black lines.

 

[Sarthak]

Some sort of Soviet Union equivalent?

Edit: I'd make Iran a bit smaller and leave out Kabul. That's a lot of particularly hard to govern Sunnis under the rule of a Shi'a state.

Afghanistan would be the only place in that Iran with a Sunni majority. All other places would at least be Shia plurality (khuzestan, Dagestan, Chechnya) and the rest are outright Shia majorities (balochistan, khurasan) so having one Sunni supermajority region would be a good analogue to ottoman Iraq, which would be the Shia stronghold of the Sunni ottomans.

 

[Hawabin]

View attachment 720458
The future map of Earth from my current story “Defiance of the Sith” approximately in 0BY/2041 CE. Note: Colors may define general spheres of infulence and not control. As defined by the black lines.

India is going to get fucked in the North. Lol.

I don't know why people fantasize about India getting GB and AJK. That would be like one of the biggest blunders ever made by India.

 

[B_Munro]

nd the rest are outright Shia majorities (balochistan, khurasan)

That's a remarkable success in conversion, since in our world less than 1% of Balochis are Shi'a. (OTL they haven't been very successful in converting the Baloch in Iran proper; https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/map-of-middle-east-religions )

 

[alexffnet]

I don't know why people fantasize about India getting GB and AJK. That would be like one of the biggest blunders ever made by India.

Map painting. It’s the same reason why Chinese revanchists get dreamy eyed about restoring peak Qing borders, or why wehraboos get wet about a unified german state that includes both peak German Empire and Austria-Hungary.
*to be clear, they’re both fringe positions with no real mainstream support. Even the mainstream Chi-Nat will have something semi-feasible like Taiwan and the 9DL to obsess over rather than reclaiming…Tannu Tuva.

Never mind that it’s almost certainly not worth the time, blood and resources you need to pacify the new acquisitions.

But, well — map painting pretty, make Pee Pee hard.

 

[PierceJJones]

India is going to get fucked in the North. Lol.

I don't know why people fantasize about India getting GB and AJK. That would be like one of the biggest blunders ever made by India.

The context is that after the withdrawal of the US and ISAF troops from Afghanistan in 2013. The Taliban quickly took back control of the control and in 2014 the Taliban in Pakistan rose up and gained control of KP along with many units of the Pakistani miliary defecting to the Taliban. The government in Islamabad collapsed and loyalist forces were concentrated around Karchai and the Taliban merged Afghanistan and Pakistan into the Islamic Emirate. Soon India, Iran,The Arab Federation, NATO and even Russia and China began to military oppose and quarantine the region and secure Pakistan's nuclear arsenal. Leading to the war ongoing to this day at a standstill were frontlines change everyday and battles over ghost towns drag out for months. With the Islamic emirate only controlling the Pashto regions in Afghanistan and Pakistan along with parts of Punjabi Pakistan. With virtually everything east of the Indus falling into the hands of Indian client states and Iran sponsoring similar client states in Balochistan and Hazaristan, seeking to break up the former nations of Afghanistan and Pakistan into smaller ethnic based components.

After the Galactic civil war with Terran involvement including a number of Afghans who fought in the taking of the Galactic senate building. There were celebrations in the street in Kabul,Islamabad and other cities held by the Taliban that were violently suppressed. Believing the wider galactic community was in fact a illusion created by satan and that the non-human aliens of the galaxy were in fact demons. Soon anti-Taliban forces across the two countries rallied and the people kicked out their Taliban rulers and invited the Anti-Taliban groups to replacement and become the legitimate governments of their countries again. While both India and Iran protested, the nature of the galaxy and the religious makeup of the galaxy, especially the Jedi made many earth religions to be stumped theologically and nosedived in relevance and adherence with Hindu nationalism collapsing in India and Iran after a series of protests reformed into a secular republic. However India was able to maintain it's defacto from 2014 control of Jammu and Kashmir, and other disputed areas in Pakistan.

TLR: Fall of Kabul meets the rise of ISIS, Then earth gets a crossover with Star Wars and people in Afghanistan and Pakistan celebrate to dismay of the Taliban, insert popular uprising but India keeps the disputed regions it claimed that Pakistan used to control.

 

[Hawabin]

That's a remarkable success in conversion, since in our world less than 1% of Balochis are Shi'a. (OTL they haven't been very successful in converting the Baloch in Iran proper; https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/map-of-middle-east-religions )

Does this count sistan baluchistaan?

But I suppose even they are sunni majority.


Anyway, I suppose it's not in the realm of impossible considering that it's safavids. They did convert iran into a shia majority.

 

[Sarthak]

That's a remarkable success in conversion, since in our world less than 1% of Balochis are Shi'a. (OTL they haven't been very successful in converting the Baloch in Iran proper; https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/map-of-middle-east-religions )

Most Balochi Shias immigrated to Iran in the 50s, according to the 1941 British Raj Update, around 24% of Balochistani adherents of Islam were shiite.

 

[Sarthak]

​

"If none of my children are to live upon my death, then my realm is to be bequeathed to the Caliph of All Islam." - that was the will of Sultan Alauddin Ri'ayat Syah al-Kahar in our history after his firstborn and favorite son Abdullah died of disease after an epidemic. Historically, his other two sons survived, allowing the Sultanate of Aceh as an independent body to continue, but what if his other sons did not survive the epidemic as well? Upon the Sultan's death in 1571, the Sultanate of Aceh is formally handed over as an autonomous region (Kaza) of the Ottoman Empire, with the Sultan of the Ottomans accepting the offer next year in 1572 formally. Immediately conflict begins with the Portuguese over Malacca, with the Ottomans ousting the Portuguese by 1612, dealing a major blow to Portuguese and Iberian sea and trading power in the east. For most of history however, Ottoman East Indies remained a backwater region, with the Ottomans only really using the important trade route and nothing much else. Everything changed in 1842, when Tanzimat spread into the region as well. Administrative borders were changed, but this provoked a massive rebellion from the tribes of the region, who had enjoyed their autonomy under the previous decentralized regimes of the Ottoman Empire. The Batak Rebellion of 1849 - 1853 is dealt with and the reforms continue. By 1900, the Ottoman East Indies had become a prosperous and (mostly) loyal region within the Ottoman Empire. As the World teeters on the brink of total war in 1914, the future of the Ottoman East Indies is in question..........

Thoughts and Comments?

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

Thoughts and Comments?

Fascinating scenario. Would Britain still go for Sarawak without the Straits, though? The Straits of Malacca were crucial to the China trade, which influenced most of Britain's far-eastern decision making.

 

[Sarthak]

The Dominion of Zealandia

​

The Continent does not sink and as such history changes. The first inhabitants of Zealandia are the Austronesian people such as the Kanaks to the north, alongside a few Australian Aboriginal settlements to the western coast of the continent. The Polynesian expansions see Fijian, Tongan and finally Maori settlement onto the continent as well. In the late 1600s, the Dutch arrive and start settling from the west. During the Napoleonic Wars, in 1799, the British invaded Dutch Nieuw Zeeland from their colony in New South Wales. The Treaty of Amiens affirms British annexation of the colony into British Zealandia. With expansion, eventually in 1905, the colonies of Zealandia gained semi-independence as the Dominion of Zealandia. During WW1, and WW2, Zealanders played an important role against the Germans in Africa (during WW1) and the Japanese in WW2. In 1956, Zealandia ratified the Statute of Westminster 1931, becoming almost fully independent and the nation's parliament was repatriated in 1988, gaining absolute full independence. Today Zealandia is a wealthy and prosperous nation.

Thoughts and comments?

 

[Votre Idéolinguiste Local]

The Dominion of Zealandia

​

The Continent does not sink and as such history changes. The first inhabitants of Zealandia are the Austronesian people such as the Kanaks to the north, alongside a few Australian Aboriginal settlements to the western coast of the continent. The Polynesian expansions see Fijian, Tongan and finally Maori settlement onto the continent as well. In the late 1600s, the Dutch arrive and start settling from the west. During the Napoleonic Wars, in 1799, the British invaded Dutch Nieuw Zeeland from their colony in New South Wales. The Treaty of Amiens affirms British annexation of the colony into British Zealandia. With expansion, eventually in 1905, the colonies of Zealandia gained semi-independence as the Dominion of Zealandia. During WW1, and WW2, Zealanders played an important role against the Germans in Africa (during WW1) and the Japanese in WW2. In 1956, Zealandia ratified the Statute of Westminster 1931, becoming almost fully independent and the nation's parliament was repatriated in 1988, gaining absolute full independence. Today Zealandia is a wealthy and prosperous nation.

Thoughts and comments?

imo Zealandia, due to its soil and placement would actually allow for the local culture to become quite strong, on par with what we'd see in Indonesia, so all these TLs where it's just bigger New Zealand imo would not happen, and instead we'd see a European colonisation like what we saw in India or Indonesia, with it being released, and still with a massive native population, after WW2.

 

[Clandango]

FinnFascinating scenario. Would Britain still go for Sarawak without the Straits, though? The Straits of Malacca were crucial to the China trade, which influenced most of Britain's far-eastern decision making.

Surely it would be even more important, as they would need ports in which to land their ships. The issue is whether the Dutch or Ottomans (I expect it will be as independent as more of North Africa was for the first couple centuries) would allow the English navy to get enough heavily armed ships over there, whether royal owned or a merchant fleet, to gain any land. Since it seems it seems from the description it wss left to its own devices, I would say the local governors and leaders would do as they like and either do piracy or toll work. Surprising it would survive for that long though without Europeans picking at it. However loyal it is said to be here, where the Ottomans collapse we can expect the British to pick it up.

​

"If none of my children are to live upon my death, then my realm is to be bequeathed to the Caliph of All Islam." - that was the will of Sultan Alauddin Ri'ayat Syah al-Kahar in our history after his firstborn and favorite son Abdullah died of disease after an epidemic. Historically, his other two sons survived, allowing the Sultanate of Aceh as an independent body to continue, but what if his other sons did not survive the epidemic as well? Upon the Sultan's death in 1571, the Sultanate of Aceh is formally handed over as an autonomous region (Kaza) of the Ottoman Empire, with the Sultan of the Ottomans accepting the offer next year in 1572 formally. Immediately conflict begins with the Portuguese over Malacca, with the Ottomans ousting the Portuguese by 1612, dealing a major blow to Portuguese and Iberian sea and trading power in the east. For most of history however, Ottoman East Indies remained a backwater region, with the Ottomans only really using the important trade route and nothing much else. Everything changed in 1842, when Tanzimat spread into the region as well. Administrative borders were changed, but this provoked a massive rebellion from the tribes of the region, who had enjoyed their autonomy under the previous decentralized regimes of the Ottoman Empire. The Batak Rebellion of 1849 - 1853 is dealt with and the reforms continue. By 1900, the Ottoman East Indies had become a prosperous and (mostly) loyal region within the Ottoman Empire. As the World teeters on the brink of total war in 1914, the future of the Ottoman East Indies is in question..........

Thoughts and Comments?

Your write up text does answer several things I had been thinking which was useful, but is there any local person who might be considered an Emir or someone who the Europeans could have as a figurehead? Did the Ottomans massacre the leadership of some of those tribes? Given the Mughals, English, French, Portuguese, Dutch, Omani, Persians etc I see trouble for the Ottomans getting to the areas, though it is partially answered by your mentioning how it was mostly de jute early on. Plus the Ottomans could declare an embargo or jihad on any Europeans who attacked the area during the first centuries of their rule. Still, quite a distance. The Dutch and English are much farther from their own colonies, but they had a lot of waystops on the way over. Do you see the Ottomans having the Maldives or someplace around Kerala?

The Dominion of Zealandia

​

The Continent does not sink and as such history changes. The first inhabitants of Zealandia are the Austronesian people such as the Kanaks to the north, alongside a few Australian Aboriginal settlements to the western coast of the continent. The Polynesian expansions see Fijian, Tongan and finally Maori settlement onto the continent as well. In the late 1600s, the Dutch arrive and start settling from the west. During the Napoleonic Wars, in 1799, the British invaded Dutch Nieuw Zeeland from their colony in New South Wales. The Treaty of Amiens affirms British annexation of the colony into British Zealandia. With expansion, eventually in 1905, the colonies of Zealandia gained semi-independence as the Dominion of Zealandia. During WW1, and WW2, Zealanders played an important role against the Germans in Africa (during WW1) and the Japanese in WW2. In 1956, Zealandia ratified the Statute of Westminster 1931, becoming almost fully independent and the nation's parliament was repatriated in 1988, gaining absolute full independence. Today Zealandia is a wealthy and prosperous nation.

Thoughts and comments?

are we to take it this map is only showing this country and that there is land in the blue, but it has been removed? As for language, I think at the very least the entire area between the Tongan, Fijian, and Maori groups would have been settled, but I suppose English might be the lingua franca. Given all the time together though, and without fear of sailing out to sea without ever seeing Lang, there might be one set up centuries ago. Maybe a pidgin of some sort. Depends if they are traders or raiders and slavers.

 

[Sarthak]

Your write up text does answer several things I had been thinking which was useful, but is there any local person who might be considered an Emir or someone who the Europeans could have as a figurehead? Did the Ottomans massacre the leadership of some of those tribes? Given the Mughals, English, French, Portuguese, Dutch, Omani, Persians etc I see trouble for the Ottomans getting to the areas, though it is partially answered by your mentioning how it was mostly de jute early on. Plus the Ottomans could declare an embargo or jihad on any Europeans who attacked the area during the first centuries of their rule. Still, quite a distance. The Dutch and English are much farther from their own colonies, but they had a lot of waystops on the way over. Do you see the Ottomans having the Maldives or someplace around Kerala?

The Ottomans owned Iraq, and the Hejaz until the end of ww1. They had fleets there. They could go to the East Indies rather easily on that account.

are we to take it this map is only showing this country and that there is land in the blue, but it has been removed? As for language, I think at the very least the entire area between the Tongan, Fijian, and Maori groups would have been settled, but I suppose English might be the lingua franca. Given all the time together though, and without fear of sailing out to sea without ever seeing Lang, there might be one set up centuries ago. Maybe a pidgin of some sort. Depends if they are traders or raiders and slavers.

The Fijians, Maori, Kanak and Tongans did spread a whole lot more, but with British colonization their languages were slowly pushed back during the Colonization Era as English became the Lingua Franca.

 

[Wendell]

The Ottomans owned Iraq, and the Hejaz until the end of ww1. They had fleets there. They could go to the East Indies rather easily on that account.

The Fijians, Maori, Kanak and Tongans did spread a whole lot more, but with British colonization their languages were slowly pushed back during the Colonization Era as English became the Lingua Franca.

But why did no ne native group achieve some measure of dominance before Europeans arrived?