Assuming Juan still dies without children, who would succeed the Catholic Monarchs?I was wondering who Isabella and Ferdinand's other children would marry in this world... I suspect it would look something like this:
Isabella of Castile (1451-1504) m.1469 Ferdinand of Aragon (1452-1516)
[1] I'm not sure the Catholic Monarchs would still want the Austrian match, if it's not part of a double match, but I couldn't think of anyone else for Juan. Happy to change it if anyone has any better ideas.
- Isabella (1470-1498) m.1490 Afonso, Prince of Portugal (1475-1491) m.1497 Manuel I of Portugal
- Miscarried son (1475)
- Juan (1478-1497) m. Margaret of Burgundy (b.1480) [1]
- Juana (b.1479) m. 1494 Henry VII of England [2]
- Maria (b.1482) m.1500 Manuel I of Portugal [3]
- Catalina (b.1485) m. 1501 Phillibert II of Savoy [4]
[2] The way I see this working is: The Ambassadors are there to arrange Catherine's match to Arthur as OTL, but then Elizabeth dies in childbirth and the English court is plunged into mourning for the better part of a year, stalling negotiations. When they are reopened in 1490/91, Henry needs a new wife with Lancastrian heritage, and the eleven-year-old Juana is thought to be suitable, so Henry and Juana's names are exchanged for Arthur and Katherine's on the marriage contract....
[3] Yes, Portugal goes as OTL, because I'm too lazy to consider butterflies here too...
[4] I was going to marry her to Charles III, but I wasn't sure her parents would be willing to wait until 1504 for her marriage and Phillibert's first wife died in 1499, so he slotted in perfectly ahead of his younger half-brother.
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage
- Thread starter Jonathan
- Start date
Presumably Juana's son Henry (or Edmund, if Arthur still dies and they decide to split the English crown from the Spanish ones...)
[4] I was going to marry her to Charles III, but I wasn't sure her parents would be willing to wait until 1504 for her marriage and Phillibert's first wife died in 1499, so he slotted in perfectly ahead of his younger half-brother.
Catalina would also do well as a wife for Charles II of Savoy, if he doesn't die here.
Does he? He himself has Lancastrian heritage. He'd need a Yorkist wife to placate his nobility, no?
He needs indisputably legitimate Lancastrian blood - which Juana, being a descendant of two of John of Gaunt's three daughters from his first two marriages. definitely provides - but you're right, his children by a second marriage would be in a questionable spot without Yorkist blood. However, I think this could easily be solved by ensuring that the eldest son of Henry and Juana, who would be heir presumptive until Arthur produces issue, marries a granddaughter of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville (preferably by Cecily but I honestly think that any granddaughter in the right age range would do)
I gotta be honest, I'm not entirely sure that a marriage between henry and juana negates a marriage between arthur and catalina - sure they would be aunt and nephew in the eyes of the church but lord knows that such marriages were not impossible in this era (catalina's cousin giovanna of naples married her half nephew ferdinando ii)Isabella of Castile (1451-1504) m.1469 Ferdinand of Aragon (1452-1516)
[1] I'm not sure the Catholic Monarchs would still want the Austrian match, if it's not part of a double match, but I couldn't think of anyone else for Juan. Happy to change it if anyone has any better ideas.
- Isabella (1470-1498) m.1490 Afonso, Prince of Portugal (1475-1491) m.1497 Manuel I of Portugal
- Miscarried son (1475)
- Juan (1478-1497) m. Margaret of Burgundy (b.1480) [1]
- Juana (b.1479) m. 1494 Henry VII of England [2]
- Maria (b.1482) m.1500 Manuel I of Portugal [3]
- Catalina (b.1485) m. 1501 Phillibert II of Savoy [4]
[2] The way I see this working is: The Ambassadors are there to arrange Catherine's match to Arthur as OTL, but then Elizabeth dies in childbirth and the English court is plunged into mourning for the better part of a year, stalling negotiations. When they are reopened in 1490/91, Henry needs a new wife with Lancastrian heritage, and the eleven-year-old Juana is thought to be suitable, so Henry and Juana's names are exchanged for Arthur and Katherine's on the marriage contract....
[3] Yes, Portugal goes as OTL, because I'm too lazy to consider butterflies here too...
[4] I was going to marry her to Charles III, but I wasn't sure her parents would be willing to wait until 1504 for her marriage and Phillibert's first wife died in 1499, so he slotted in perfectly ahead of his younger half-brother.
Simply have the marriages take place simultaneously, then you don't even need a dispensation
pretty sure one would be required anyways for arthur and catalina's shared descent from john of gaunt
They didn't have one IOTL iirc - @isabella or @EdwardRex could probably confirm or deny. And if Arthur/Katherine need one, so do Henry/Joanna
It’s late and I’m too lazy to search for it in a book, but the Papacy clearly had no problem offering dispensations in this time period.
No need of them marrying at the same time as they would NOT be in the forbidden degrees after the church
Henry need that blood for his son but for himself he need a wife with Yorkist blood (as Elizabeth was) or his Crown will be much more instabile than OTL (and I can NOT see Ferdinand or Isabella EVER agree to a wedding between Juana and Henry VII considering what was needed for persuading them to effectively send Catherine in England).
Could he just do what his daughter-in-law did and marry Elizabeth's sister?
I don't think Cecilia's children by Kymbe would be considered high-ranking enough, but perhaps Margaret Courtenay would do?
I concede the point, but would Isabella and Ferdinand want to give a relative backwater like England two daughters, when Savoy is just as strategically important for their territorial ambitions, if not more so?
Oh yeah, there'd be no problem with a dispensation.
Which one? Bridget is a nun, and Cecily at least is married by 1489. It would have to be Anne or Katherine, and their lines come after Cecily's in the succession.
Savoy is NOT a Kingdom and the English King has already a son… As much I like your tree I can not see Henry VII being able to get Juana as second wife with him having already a son and an unstable Crown
Henry VII ruled in his own right so any Yorkist blooded would be good enough. Anne is engaged to Thomas Howard but I guess who he could accept the switch to Katherine.
You could have Cecily’s children with John Welles survive, in particular Anne (b. 1491), the same age as alt Henry and heiress to the Welles estates if she were to survive.
Alt Henry isn't born until 1498, but I take your point.
Burgundy wasn't a kingdom either, and Juana still married Phillip OTL....
Oh, I agree this probably isn't a realistic tree . But I realised that no one had ever suggested an Anne of Brittany/Philip the Handsome match, so I was playing with that, and then wondered what to do with Juana, if her OTL husband was taken... As I said, I never really thought it through fully, it was more of an abstract half-idea...
Fairly certain @isabella did (and then had Juana marry Maximilian iirc)
Burgundy wasn't a kingdom either, and Juana still married Phillip OTL....
Burgundy was one of the richest duchies in Europe and Philip was the son and heir to Emperor Maximilian. It's a different scenario.
Burgundy was one of the richest duchies in Europe and Philip was the son and heir to Emperor Maximilian. It's a different scenario.
Since this thread is at its end, here’s a remake of the first tree I made here, where Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon have a son in 1516:
King Henry VIII (1491-1547) m. Katherine of Aragon (1485-1539), had issue
King Henry VIII (1491-1547) m. Katherine of Aragon (1485-1539), had issue
1. King Henry IX of England (1516-1568) m. Dorothea of Denmark (1520-1580), had issue
1. King John II of England (1535-1586)
2. Prince Edward, Duke of York (1536-1589)
3. Princess Katherine of England (1538-1598)
4. Princess Elizabeth of England (1540-1600)
5. Princess Dorothy of England (1540-1597)
6. Prince Edmund of England, Duke of Somerset (1543-1585)
2. Princess Elizabeth of England (1518-1569) m. Duke Francis III of Brittany (1518-1536), had issue
1. King Henri II of France (1534-1579)
2. Prince François, Duke of Berry (1536-1590)
3. Prince Edward, Duke of York (1519-1529)
I had done an Anne of Brittany/Philip the Handsome tree but Juana ended with Maximilian in mine (and that was answering to @Kellan Sullivan request) you can find my tree here
First Burgundy was like the richest realm around, second Philip was likely to become his father’s successor as Holy Roman Emperor, third that matches (Philip/Juana and Juan/Margaret) sealed a primary alliance against both the French and the Ottomans
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