I also like seeing the Tudors rule foreign countries and Poland-Lithuania would be cool! (Especially because it means we can get Romanovs fighting Tudors)
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage
- Thread starter Jonathan
- Start date
Question is-would Henry be interested? Neither side has anything to gain politically, but ambitious Bona would love to see her favourite daughter as queen, but what about English side?
England need a Queen old enough to have children soon, and possibly good connections and a good dowry and Isabella of Poland fitted the bill. Bona wanted a crown for Isabella and England would give that to her. England and Poland are also both in the Habsburg (or French) network of alliances so they can be politically useful to each other
Well, I didn't say that this scenario is likely, only that it'd be interesting.
And the duke of Albany had also been sniffing around her.
Thing is, James wasn't above threatening with an imperial match. He'd threatened with Maria and Katharina of Austria to get Madeleine de Valois.
James was also good friends with Cardinal d'Este. Lucrezia Borgia had a still unwed daughter that could be proposed. Of course, James accepting is another matter entirely, but if he's willing to accept Isabeau d'Albret as a candidate, Eleonora d'Este is just as likely as a French proxy. François I put forward the Cleves girls as well IIRC. So, it depends on how James defines "princess". But he also basically wrote a touching letter to sell himself to Marie wherein he described himself as a (16th century equivalent) of a "fixer upper". Her agreeing to marry James had nothing to do with the threat of Henry. In fact, she turned down Henry with no hard feelings (since François was also pushing his daughter, Marguerite, on Henry or Karl V). It was only when Henry wanted a second look at Marie de Guise that he found she was already married. The talks to wed her to James (and James' fixer-upper letter) predated Henry's first suit.
Marie's aversion to Scotland was less because she regarded it as the boonies @JaniceTheMannis, and had more to do with the fact that she would have to leave her son, the duc de Longueville, behind in France. She left him behind with her mom, but the boy later died at age 16 (IIRC his health WAS iffy in general, which was why maman didn't want to leave him).
Maria of Sicily b. 1362 m. Theodore of Montferrat b. 1364(a)
1a. John Jacob of Montferrat b. 1384 m. Joanna I of Aragon
2a. Sophia of Montferrat b. 1392 m. John VIII Palaiologos
John Jacob of Montferrat(John I of Aragon) b. 1384 m. Joanna I of Aragon b. 1375(a)
1a. Peter IV of Aragon b. 1400
2a. Isabel of Aragon b. 1403
Jogaila m. Catherine I of Poland b. 1370 d. 1420(a) Sophia of Halshany b. 1405(b)
1a. Elizabeth Bonifacia b. 1392 m. Ernest, Duke of Austria
2a. Vladislaus V of Poland b. 1400 m. Elizabeth of Luxembourg b. 1409
3a. John I of Lithuania b. 1421
Jadwiga of Poland m. Charles VI of France(a)
1a. Charlotte of France b. 1400 m. Louis III of Anjou b. 1403
Valentina Visconti m. Ladislaus of Naples
Azzone I of Milan b. 1366 m. Bonne of Burgundy b. 1379
1a. John Jacob of Montferrat b. 1384 m. Joanna I of Aragon
2a. Sophia of Montferrat b. 1392 m. John VIII Palaiologos
John Jacob of Montferrat(John I of Aragon) b. 1384 m. Joanna I of Aragon b. 1375(a)
1a. Peter IV of Aragon b. 1400
2a. Isabel of Aragon b. 1403
Jogaila m. Catherine I of Poland b. 1370 d. 1420(a) Sophia of Halshany b. 1405(b)
1a. Elizabeth Bonifacia b. 1392 m. Ernest, Duke of Austria
2a. Vladislaus V of Poland b. 1400 m. Elizabeth of Luxembourg b. 1409
3a. John I of Lithuania b. 1421
Jadwiga of Poland m. Charles VI of France(a)
1a. Charlotte of France b. 1400 m. Louis III of Anjou b. 1403
Valentina Visconti m. Ladislaus of Naples
Azzone I of Milan b. 1366 m. Bonne of Burgundy b. 1379
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POVS: Anne Neville dies in childbirth. Edward of Middleham lives to adulthood. (Originally, I had him die on schedule but with all the inevitable future inbreeding I decided it would be better to include more genetic diversity by having surviving half-siblings) Richard III wins at the Battle of Bosworth Field. Also, Elizabeth of York marries Manuel I of Portugal.
Richard III, King of England (1452-1507) m.a Anne Neville (1456- 1475) m.b Mary of Scotland (1453-1488)
Richard III, King of England (1452-1507) m.a Anne Neville (1456- 1475) m.b Mary of Scotland (1453-1488)
- a. Edward V, King of England (1475-1530) m. Joanna of Aragon (1479-1555) with issue
- b. Richard, Duke of Gloucester (1478-1536) m.a Elizabeth Herbert, 3rd Baroness of Herbert (1476-1507) m.b Mary Grey (1492-1538) with issue.
- b. Princess Mary (1479-1480)
- b. Cecily of England (1481-1537) m. Philip Duke of Burgundy and Archduke of Austria (1478-1506) with issue.
- b. Mary of England (1483-1548) m. James IV of Scotland (1473-1513) with issue.
- b. Edmund, Duke of Bedford (1485-1522) m. Anne Percy (1485-1552) with issue.
Margaret Regina Domina
Margaret I of Burgundy m. Juan, Prince of Asturias d. 1501(a) William IV, Duke of Bavaria(b)
1a. Isabel II of Spain b. 1497 m. Miguel I of Portugal b. 1498
2a. Philip of Bavaria, Austria, and Burgundy b. 1509
3a. Eleanor of Bavaria b. 1511
Joanna m. Philip, Duke of Burgundy d. 1497(a) Manuel I of Portugal b. 1469(b)
2b. Eleanor of Portugal b. 1499
3b. John III of Portugal b. 1502
Margaret I of Burgundy m. Juan, Prince of Asturias d. 1501(a) William IV, Duke of Bavaria(b)
1a. Isabel II of Spain b. 1497 m. Miguel I of Portugal b. 1498
2a. Philip of Bavaria, Austria, and Burgundy b. 1509
3a. Eleanor of Bavaria b. 1511
Joanna m. Philip, Duke of Burgundy d. 1497(a) Manuel I of Portugal b. 1469(b)
2b. Eleanor of Portugal b. 1499
3b. John III of Portugal b. 1502
Ana María Luisa de Medici married in 1692 with Johan Wilhelm Von Wittelsbach, elector of the Palatinate, she became the Great Duchess of Tuscany in 1737.
A. Gian Carlo (1692-1770). Married with Maria Elisabeth Von Österreich (1680-1742) in 1706.
A1 Ferdinando (1709-1789). Married with Matilde de Este (1729-1803).
A2 Carlo Fabrizio (1712-1800). Married with María Ana Von Österreich (1718-1770).
A3. Gabriela (1714-1809). Married with her cousin Ferdinando in 1742.
B. Mario Filipo (1694-1760). Married with Isabel Farnese (1692-1776).
B1 Giorgio (1721-1723).
B2 Ferdinando (1722-1790). Married with his cousin Gabriela.
B3 Eva (1724-1754). Married with Benedicto de Savoia (1731-1754).
B4 Guglielmo (1724-1809). Became priest, then bishop and cardinal, candidate for the Throne of Saint Peter after Pious VI death.
B5 Carlo (1726-1742).
B6 Carlo Victor Amadeo (1728-1780). Never married.
B7 Hercules (1729-1809). Married Mariana de Portugal (1736-1813).
B8 Victoria (1730-1790). Married with Luis Antonio Jaime de Borbón (1727-1785).
B9 Isabel (1732-1812). Married with Stanisław August Poniatowski (1732-1800).
C. Emanuele Ernesto (1698-1708).
D. Amalia Maria (1704-1800). Married with Carlo Emanuele III of Sardinia (1701-1773)
D1 Victor Amadeo (1726-1799). Married with María Antonia de España.
D2 Carlo Francesco (1730-1746).
D3 Benedicto (1731-1754). Married with Eva Von Wittelsbach-Medici (1724-1754).
D4 Mario Victor (1731-1801). Married with Matilde of Este (1729-1803).
D5 Leonor (1733-1795). Married with Constantine of Hesse-Rotenburg (1716-1778).
D6 Maria Felicita (1737-1820). Never married and without issue.
D7 Filiberto (1738-1753).
D8 Carlo Romualdo (1739-1758).
D9 Amadeo (1742-1812). Never married.
D10 Margarita (1750-1835). Married with Carl Josef Von Österreich (1745-1780).
A. Gian Carlo (1692-1770). Married with Maria Elisabeth Von Österreich (1680-1742) in 1706.
A1 Ferdinando (1709-1789). Married with Matilde de Este (1729-1803).
A2 Carlo Fabrizio (1712-1800). Married with María Ana Von Österreich (1718-1770).
A3. Gabriela (1714-1809). Married with her cousin Ferdinando in 1742.
B. Mario Filipo (1694-1760). Married with Isabel Farnese (1692-1776).
B1 Giorgio (1721-1723).
B2 Ferdinando (1722-1790). Married with his cousin Gabriela.
B3 Eva (1724-1754). Married with Benedicto de Savoia (1731-1754).
B4 Guglielmo (1724-1809). Became priest, then bishop and cardinal, candidate for the Throne of Saint Peter after Pious VI death.
B5 Carlo (1726-1742).
B6 Carlo Victor Amadeo (1728-1780). Never married.
B7 Hercules (1729-1809). Married Mariana de Portugal (1736-1813).
B8 Victoria (1730-1790). Married with Luis Antonio Jaime de Borbón (1727-1785).
B9 Isabel (1732-1812). Married with Stanisław August Poniatowski (1732-1800).
C. Emanuele Ernesto (1698-1708).
D. Amalia Maria (1704-1800). Married with Carlo Emanuele III of Sardinia (1701-1773)
D1 Victor Amadeo (1726-1799). Married with María Antonia de España.
D2 Carlo Francesco (1730-1746).
D3 Benedicto (1731-1754). Married with Eva Von Wittelsbach-Medici (1724-1754).
D4 Mario Victor (1731-1801). Married with Matilde of Este (1729-1803).
D5 Leonor (1733-1795). Married with Constantine of Hesse-Rotenburg (1716-1778).
D6 Maria Felicita (1737-1820). Never married and without issue.
D7 Filiberto (1738-1753).
D8 Carlo Romualdo (1739-1758).
D9 Amadeo (1742-1812). Never married.
D10 Margarita (1750-1835). Married with Carl Josef Von Österreich (1745-1780).
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Having two sons named Johann/Giovanni/Gian seems unlikely. Maybe Johann for the one and Karl/Cosimo/Ferdinand for the other?
The one succeeding in the Palatinate (the elder boy) will marry German - potentially his cousin, Elisabeth Auguste/Maria Anna, to prevent whatever inheritance she got from her mom going outside the family; or a Habsburg archduchess. Adélaïde's too pro-French and the fact the only candidates ever considered for her were Louis XV's dad and Karl VI makes a Pfalz match unlikely. Besides, the Medici were anti-French at that point as were the Neuburgs.
For the one inheriting Tuscany, Amalia Giuseppina's a good match. But so is Isabel Farnese. She's also a cousin, and Karl VI (half-Neuburg himself) considered marrying her.
As to the matches with the Sulzbach line, those strike me as unlikely. Sulzbach's importance stemmed from Neuburg going extinct. So such a match seems rather...odd.
OTOH, with the Palatinate having an Italian slant here, Amalia COULD replace her Sulzbach cousin as wife of the king of Sardinia? By that point, her dad, Emperor Leopold I/Joseph I and Louis XIV, Adélaïde and her husband are all dead, and Savoy is following a more anti-French stance. So a Pfalz girl (particularly one whose brother is married to Maria Josepha/Amalie of Austria - Joseph I's daughter) will be a nice compromise for Savoy to get a wife from a pro-Austrian family, but not antagonize France by picking an actual Habsburg
The whole thing is a bit different, capital letters means son of Ana María Luisa while the A1 and so on refers to the grandsons of Ana and Johan.
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I got that. Which makes Amalia Johann/Anna's daughter. Her marriage to Savoy would be reasonable. Her brother's, not so much.
King Arthur I of England (1486-1550), reigned from 1512, M. Catherine of Aragon (1485-1555), had issue
1. Princess Mary (1503-1556) M. King John III of Portugal (1502-1557), had issue
1 (A). Infante Joao (1522-1529)
1 (B). Infanta Maria Manuela (1525-1567) M. King Philip II of Spain (1527-1598)
1 (C). Infante Arturo, later King Arturo I of Portugal (1526-1580) M. Infanta Joanna of Spain [1] (1527-1576)
1 (D). Infante Manuel of Portugal, Duke of Viseu (1528-1576) M. Lady Katherine Tudor (1529-1570)
2. Prince Henry (1505-1507)
3. Princess Margaret (1507-1559) M. King James V of Scotland [2] (1507-1562), had issue
3 (A). Prince Arthur, later King Arthur I of Scotland (1524-1568) M. Marguerite of Valois (1523-1574)
3 (B). Princess Margaret of Scotland (1525-1559) M. King Francis II of France (1518-1560) [3]
3 (C). Prince James, Duke of Albany (1527-1570) M. Lady Sybille Tudor (1530-1580)
4. Prince Henry, later King Henry VIII (1509-1564), reigned from 1550, M. Catherine of Austria (1507-1574), had issue
4 (A). Princess Katherine of England (1526-1555), never married became a Nun.
4 (B). Prince Henry (1528-1550)
4 (C). Prince Arthur (1530-1545)
4 (D). Princess Elizabeth (1532-1550)
4 (E). Prince Edward (1534-1556)
4 (F). Princess Joan, later Queen Joan I of England (1536-1606) M. Henry Tudor, Duke of Richmond (1532-1589)
5. Prince Edmund, Duke of Richmond (1512-1557) M. Sibylle of Cleves (1512-1555), had issue
5 (A). Lady Katherine Tudor (1529-1570) M. Infante Manuel of Portugal, Duke of Viseu (1528-1576)
5 (B). Lady Sybille Tudor (1530-1580) M. Prince James, Duke of Albany (1527-1570)
5 (C). Henry Tudor, Duke of Richmond (1532-1589) M. Queen Joan I of England (1536-1606)
6. Princess Elizabeth Tudor (1514-1559), became a Nun.
...
[1] An alt twin sister of King Philip II. Charles V still marries Isabella of Portugal here.
[2] An otl child who died young, here he lives.
[3] I kept Francis III of Brittany alive here.
1. Princess Mary (1503-1556) M. King John III of Portugal (1502-1557), had issue
1 (A). Infante Joao (1522-1529)
1 (B). Infanta Maria Manuela (1525-1567) M. King Philip II of Spain (1527-1598)
1 (C). Infante Arturo, later King Arturo I of Portugal (1526-1580) M. Infanta Joanna of Spain [1] (1527-1576)
1 (D). Infante Manuel of Portugal, Duke of Viseu (1528-1576) M. Lady Katherine Tudor (1529-1570)
2. Prince Henry (1505-1507)
3. Princess Margaret (1507-1559) M. King James V of Scotland [2] (1507-1562), had issue
3 (A). Prince Arthur, later King Arthur I of Scotland (1524-1568) M. Marguerite of Valois (1523-1574)
3 (B). Princess Margaret of Scotland (1525-1559) M. King Francis II of France (1518-1560) [3]
3 (C). Prince James, Duke of Albany (1527-1570) M. Lady Sybille Tudor (1530-1580)
4. Prince Henry, later King Henry VIII (1509-1564), reigned from 1550, M. Catherine of Austria (1507-1574), had issue
4 (A). Princess Katherine of England (1526-1555), never married became a Nun.
4 (B). Prince Henry (1528-1550)
4 (C). Prince Arthur (1530-1545)
4 (D). Princess Elizabeth (1532-1550)
4 (E). Prince Edward (1534-1556)
4 (F). Princess Joan, later Queen Joan I of England (1536-1606) M. Henry Tudor, Duke of Richmond (1532-1589)
5. Prince Edmund, Duke of Richmond (1512-1557) M. Sibylle of Cleves (1512-1555), had issue
5 (A). Lady Katherine Tudor (1529-1570) M. Infante Manuel of Portugal, Duke of Viseu (1528-1576)
5 (B). Lady Sybille Tudor (1530-1580) M. Prince James, Duke of Albany (1527-1570)
5 (C). Henry Tudor, Duke of Richmond (1532-1589) M. Queen Joan I of England (1536-1606)
6. Princess Elizabeth Tudor (1514-1559), became a Nun.
...
[1] An alt twin sister of King Philip II. Charles V still marries Isabella of Portugal here.
[2] An otl child who died young, here he lives.
[3] I kept Francis III of Brittany alive here.
Deleted member 161180
House of Wessex
Kingdom of Wessex
Alfred "the great" 871-899
Edward "the elder" 899-924
Kingdom of England
Athelstan 924-939
Edmund I 939-970
Edgar "the peaceful" r. 970-1000
Ethelred "the unready" r. 1000-1030
Edward I r. 1030-1066
House of Godwinson
Harold I "The great" r. 1066-1077
Godwin I r. 1077-1115
Harold II r. 1115-1146 reformed the economy
Godwin II 1146-1180 reformed England legal system
Harold III the lionheart r. 1180-1214 defeated Saladin in battle and conquered Jerusalem
Harold V "the conqueror" 1410-1445 conquered France
Harold VI "the unready" king of England and France
Harold VIII "the catholic" 1520-1556 smashes protestants into pieces and restores catholicism in all of europe
Harold I Is considered one of the greatest english kings had he failed england would be a Scandinavian or french speaking nation and he did not only that he knew that the witan wanted to elect Edgar Atheling they only elected him cause of the Normans and Norvegian invasion and so Harold abolished it and made it invalid so the monarchy became hereditary he died in 1077 and left a 11 year old boy Godwin I under the regency of his uncle
Kingdom of Wessex
Alfred "the great" 871-899
Edward "the elder" 899-924
Kingdom of England
Athelstan 924-939
Edmund I 939-970
Edgar "the peaceful" r. 970-1000
Ethelred "the unready" r. 1000-1030
Edward I r. 1030-1066
House of Godwinson
Harold I "The great" r. 1066-1077
Godwin I r. 1077-1115
Harold II r. 1115-1146 reformed the economy
Godwin II 1146-1180 reformed England legal system
Harold III the lionheart r. 1180-1214 defeated Saladin in battle and conquered Jerusalem
Harold V "the conqueror" 1410-1445 conquered France
Harold VI "the unready" king of England and France
Harold VIII "the catholic" 1520-1556 smashes protestants into pieces and restores catholicism in all of europe
Harold I Is considered one of the greatest english kings had he failed england would be a Scandinavian or french speaking nation and he did not only that he knew that the witan wanted to elect Edgar Atheling they only elected him cause of the Normans and Norvegian invasion and so Harold abolished it and made it invalid so the monarchy became hereditary he died in 1077 and left a 11 year old boy Godwin I under the regency of his uncle
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Good idea.
Although I don’t know if he’d be given the title “great” with Alfred only being dead 167 years and Cnut more recently dying 31 years ago.
“Defender” or “Warrior King” could be used.
And he’s also the second king called Harold, with Harold Harefoot, claiming to be the first Harold, King of England from 1035 to 1040.