Le Grand Empire Français: A French Empire Timeline

[Dylanperr]

Im currently writing about the Russo-Japanese War in this timeline but I am ultimately thinking about WW1 if it ever does happen. If the British do get involved in WW1 and align themselves with the Russians against the French, they could probably overtake the French as biggest colonial power. They would likely annex Western Canada from the French and Northern Mexico from the Spanish in North America and take much of their colonies in Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan as well.

But however the British could also be happy and grateful that their biggest rivals the French and Russians are just simply fighting each other and be totally neutral. In our timeline the loss of the Russo Japanese war made the British think that the Russians were weak and so allied with them against Germany (remember France would be the equivalent of Germany in Europe geopolitically in this timeline) and I wouldn't see how the Russo Japanese war would be any different in this timeline since I had the Japanese modernize.

 

[Dylanperr]

You are forgetting another invention, the cinema! Paris before the Great War or WWI was the leading city for the new art. With the actual situation, I can't imagine the war being the same, in fact, it should be very very different. So... Will you butterfly Hollywood?

very true.

 

[Israel_Dan the Man]

I'm curious, since France is the strongest power in Europe (and thus the world), what is European France's population as of 1890 (I'm guessing 60-80 million)? And would it be possible to see a map of Europe? I just want to see if France got bigger than OTL.

 

[PGSBHurricane]

I'm curious, since France is the strongest power in Europe (and thus the world), what is European France's population as of 1890 (I'm guessing 60-80 million)? And would it be possible to see a map of Europe? I just want to see if France got bigger than OTL.

If you increase OTL France’s population in 1890 by 50%, you would get about 55-60 million people which I find reasonable.

 

[SnolTwig]

does France own Belgium

 

[Dylanperr]

Russo-Japanese War​

In the far east, Russia and Japan are competing for territory, and the territories that are being fought over are mainly Korea and Manchuria, Russia is also trying to secure a warm water port in the Pacific. One of the main goals of Russia over its recorded history was to secure a warm water port in just about anywhere that it could have free access without having to go through straits in places such as the Baltic and Black seas, so that Russia can have a navy and that Russia can have more ports that it can do more trading more freely.

In this timeline, the Japanese would most likely win the Russo Japanese War because this timeline wouldn’t be any different to our timeline and Japan would still modernize and industrialize so they would still win the war. The Japanese would still get Korea and Manchuria while the Russians would have a humiliating defeat against the Japanese, this would result in the 1905 revolution still happening and the Duma still being instituted.

The Russians losing the Russo Japanese war would also heavily affect alliances in Europe between the major European powers. So if a war like WW1 still happens, it would be highly likely be that the British would either be neutral against the French (the most powerful European power ITL). The British aligning themselves with the Russians could be definitely be a possibility because of the loss of the Russo Japanese War showed how weak Russia was and due to how powerful France is, this isn’t an unlikely outcome.

So I would say the best guess/estimate for WW1 alliances, if WW1 or a war like it happens, would be that the British and Russians would align themselves with each other against the French, Spanish, and Austrians in Europe with of course the Anglo Americans being aligned with the British in the Americas and the French North Americans being aligned with France.

 

[Dylanperr]

If you increase OTL France’s population in 1890 by 50%, you would get about 55-60 million people which I find reasonable.

I think a population of around 55-70 million by 1890-1900 is perfectly reasonable.

 

[Amon34]

The Pacific Northwest And The British In Australia​

The Pacific Northwest (The US States of Oregon, Washington, and the Canadian Province of British Columbia), was quite unsettled as well as a pretty unknown region to almost all Europeans alike would be discovered by explorers such as James Cook, George Vancouver, Jean-Francois Laperouse who would discover these regions rather than colonize them for their countries. These regions in the west coast of North America would go uncolonized and unsettled for quite some time by any European power due to how remote the Pacific Northwest would be from Europe and perhaps the rest of North America particularly in the eastern part of North America where almost all of the European colonists both French and British had settled.

The economies of both Britain and France which are the main colonial powers aren’t going to well after the Seven Years War and setting up a colony and one especially that far away from Europe would be pretty expensive to do and would happen later in this timeline when the European powers gain more interest in the Pacific and when the economies of both Britain and France recover from years of war between the two powers and are in better shape than they were after fighting in the Seven Years War against each other.

The British under James Cook would of colonized Australia and other parts of the South Pacific in 1770. The First Fleet would arrive in Australia on 26 January 1788 after an 8 month voyage starting British colonization in Australia. The British would still have the Thirteen Colonies to send their convicts to when British jails and prisons get overcrowded the British are no longer going to send their convicts to the Thirteen Colonies because the Thirteen Colonies already have a large population of British settlers that they could be self sufficient to an extent.

The British instead are going to send their convicts to Australia and the newly acquired Pacific Northwest because Australia and the Pacific Northwest were just recently colonised by the British in this timeline and it is going to need settlers to survive as a colony anyway. The reasons why the British would colonize Australia and the Pacific Northwest in this timeline is because the British would want more land and more settler colonies in the British Empire and the British would also want ports in the southern hemisphere to have access to the Pacific and Indian Oceans for things such as defense and trading, The British wouldn’t want any of their rivals to start a colony in Australia especially France but France would have very little interest in Australia in this alternate timeline unlike in our timeline where the French had a lot of interest in Australia and Western Australia along with New Zealand in our timeline almost became French colonies.

The reason that the French would have little interest in Australia in this alternate timeline is because the French would have large parts of North America that they could populate and send settlers to and Australia for the French in this timeline would be extremely difficult if not impossible for the French to hold because it is very remote from any other French colony in the French Empire, and finally the French Empire would already have ports based in North America in the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean. The French would still colonize parts of the South Pacific such as Bougainville Island in 1768 because it is somewhat of a strategic area for trading purposes and the French would want to have ports in the Pacific for trade and defense purposes and for French interests in the southern hemisphere as well.

French Reform/La Réforme Française
​

It is the year 1789 and the French revolution is first starting with the Storming of Bastille which would cause the French government to wake up and pass reform because the French would have much more colonies in this alternate timeline and the French government wouldn’t of wanted other countries especially Great Britain to use the French revolution to their advantage in order to take the French colonies. One of the reasons Great Britain did not support the French revolution was that they feared that it would spark a revolution in their own country but with the American Revolution not happening they wouldn’t of known that a revolution could of happened in their own country.

But the French revolution in this alternate timeline is going to be different from the one in our timeline because the French have North American colonies that peasants can go to in order to restart their farms that were badly affected by the harvest failures that hit France before the revolution so bread riots would be less widespread in this alternate French Revolution. The French can also use their North American colonies as penal colonies as well in order to send any possibly radical political opponents that would otherwise rebel against the French government with violence like they did in our timeline with the most notable of these personalities being Maximilien Robespierre. Another reason why the French revolution is different in this alternate timeline is because the French crown and the French economy would be much more stable economically in this alternate timeline because the French would be possessing the extremely valuable Bengal and Southern Indian colonies on the Indian subcontinent that they obtained after their victory in the Seven Years War.

The French revolution in this alternate timeline would be much less radical and would rather be a series of reforms by King Louis XVI and other officials in the French government such as the adoption a constitutional monarchy similar to that of the British monarchy because the nobility really wanted a government that was similar to that of Great Britain along with solving the massive inequalities in French society by making French government and society much more fair for almost everyone within French society especially the third estates which were the peasants, merchants, and basically everyone else that paid almost all of the taxes in French society. There was also the intellectuals who were spreading enlightenment ideas across France and the rest of Europe as well and King Louis XVI himself was a big promoter of the enlightenment ideas and wanted to be good to his people and a perfect example of this is that he promoted efforts to do things such as abolish serfdom on royal land.

With a more economically stable French economy and government in this alternate timeline the French revolution wouldn’t of turned radical like it did in our timeline and the Jacobins under Maximilien Robespierre would of never risen to power so the French revolutionary wars would never of happened as well. To basically sum up the French revolution up in this alternate timeline the French government would be a constitutional monarchy similar to that of Great Britain. Inequalities that the third estate faced before reform were reformed to be more fair such as lowering taxes on them and the decline and the abolishment of feudalism as well. The French revolution in this alternate timeline will most likely end around 1793.

Given the great rivalry between France and Great Britain, I still think that France will try to expand into the Pacific, although it will only be islands, in order not to turn the Pacific into an "English lake".
And for the reforms, although the monarchy would no longer be absolute, it still has more power than the King of England and would have about the same power as a president of the Fifth Republic. Otherwise very interesting

 

[Amon34]

Les Français garderaient certainement pas leur colonie en Louisiane, même s’ils continuent à gagner des guerres contre la Grande-Bretagne, en raison des pressions démographiques. Le Français garderait certainement le Canada, cependant, le Français encouragera l’établissement au Canada tout en le décourageant en Louisiane, en raison de ce qui s’est passé en 1804, quand ils ont dû abandonner la Louisiane à l’est du fleuve Mississippi, en raison des pressions démographiques anglo-saxons, et d’apprendre que les colons anglo-américains se déplacent rapidement vers l’ouest, et finira par dépasser la population de Français en Louisiane , cela fera renoncer les Français à la Louisiane, tandis que les Français feront d’énormes efforts pour développer le Canada, parce que le Canada compte une population de Français plus importante que la Louisiane et qu’il y a un afflux plus faible de colons en provenance de l’Amérique du Nord britannique, ce qui signifierait que le Français serait en mesure de conserver et de s’accrocher au Canada. Le principal point d’entrée à la Nouvelle-Orléans et l’embouchure du fleuve Mississippi ont également des possibilités de maladies tropicales.

you knew that French Canadians had a strong natural growth so I'm a bit surprised by this huge gap between French and English on the contrary since they can't expand westward the English should know a stagnation

 

[Amon34]

Trade With China And The Boxer Rebellion​

When the European countries are industrializing, and industrialization creates even more goods, which means Europeans need more places to sell them to, and where do you think the place where you want to sell goods at would be the most populous nation for over 2500 years or just keeping the goods to yourself and trading it with no-one. You would most definitely be wrong if you chose just keeping the goods to yourself and letting them rot away but if you picked the country with the most population for 2500 years straight, you are correct, and that very very large nation on the map is known as China. The Chinese were very reluctant to allow outsiders to trade with them and this is the same thing that went for Japan before they had to modernize.

The Europeans have been having interest in China since long before the 1890s-1900s when the Boxer rebellion had begun and there was European interactions with China since the early 16th century in 1517 during the age of exploration with the Portuguese. There would likely be no Opium Wars because the French had a different economic and colonial style and system than the British because the French mostly had government ran companies while the British companies tended to be privately owned so there was more of a profit motive. But without the Opium wars the Europeans would still want to trade their goods with China even if China was very reluctant to allow the European powers and Japan to do so.

China refusing to allow European powers and Japan to trade with them and due to its massive size there will be all of the major European powers forming into an alliance very much like our timeline to come establish spheres of influence and ports where they will like to trade. The major powers would be the British Empire, French Empire, Spanish Empire, Portuguese Empire, Russian Empire, Japanese Empire, Austro-German Empire, and the Dutch Empire, and yes there will still be 8 powers but they are a little bit different than our timeline they would also have a lot of support by other powers as well such as the many of the Italian states as well.

Many of the Boxers who were rebelling against the European powers, Japan, and other foreigners occupying parts of China though that their Calisthenic rituals and Martial arts could give them almost superpower abilities like to block bullets and shield them from the oncoming European armies and that is why it is named the name Boxer Rebellion. The what you would call conflict with China which was also known as the Qing Empire that the European powers are having would end in 1901, just like it did in our timeline, with the British Empire, French Empire, Spanish Empire, Portuguese Empire, Russian Empire, Japanese Empire, Austro-German Empire, and the Dutch Empire. This would be known as the Boxer Protocol where the Chinese tried to expel all foreigners from their nation and they were unsuccessful at it and it ended with both the European powers and Japan forcing China to trade with them and the establishment of what would be known as an Open Door Policy.

with Germany less powerful we could even see China being truly divided into several European protectorates

 

[Dylanperr]

1910 North American Census​

New France population: 67,375,000.
British North America: Around 100 million.

 

[Amon34]

1910 North American Census​

New France population: 67,375,000.
British North America: Around 100 million.

like I have just noticed that France lost Louisiana France lost it in which war

 

[GenghisKhanfan]

this isn't a revolt. It's a declaration of war and invasion - the French and Indian War (aka seven years war) part two. the first one didn't work. what's different about the second? I don't believe the colonies could unilaterally start such a war, so this would be Britain starting a war and using the colonists to a greater extent than they did the last time. This really just redoing the last war, except this is starting as more than just a colonial squabble escalating to war, and it's not going to be contained to North America. Britain didn't want to make the last war global, and having lost then, isn't going to want to take this one global. Such naked aggression is sure to trigger assistance treaties, bringing Austria/Spain into the fray.

The colonists still have plenty of room, even confined to east of the Appalachians, and aren't really feeling the pinch yet. They're working on the militia system and as such aren't really eager to travel too far from home. And they aren't trained. They'll be going up against battle hardened vets. For your entire scenario from Day One to work, I presume that the French has a much stronger navy , which is going to hamper Britain in that they can't concentrate overseas and leave the home islands exposed. Plus this eliminates British ability to stop France from reinforcing New France.

Agreed.
Even if the colonies' militias manage to gain some training, unless they get a Baron von Stueben to transform them into an actual professional army, they'd get wiped out in a short period of time

 

[Dylanperr]

like I have just noticed that France lost Louisiana France lost it in which war

I think I might of made a mistake on putting what map.

 

[Dylanperr]

Agreed.
Even if the colonies' militias manage to gain some training, unless they get a Baron von Stueben to transform them into an actual professional army, they'd get wiped out in a short period of time

Yes I agree. However were past that and at that time it was my very first time even writing an alternate history timeline. I got much better after that.

 

[Dylanperr]

like I have just noticed that France lost Louisiana France lost it in which war

Updated the map.

 

[Dylanperr]

I strongly agree with his timeline on what if the French won the French and Indian War. But however I added a point of departure where French settlers move to New France in large numbers in my timeline to actually have a French North America survive to the present day.

 

[PGSBHurricane]

I strongly agree with his timeline on what if the French won the French and Indian War. But however I added a point of departure where French settlers move to New France in large numbers in my timeline to actually have a French North America survive to the present day however.

How did you get large numbers of French settlers to New France? Was it courtesy of the Huguenots?

 

[Dylanperr]

How did you get large numbers of French settlers to New France? Was it courtesy of the Huguenots?

I made it where the French encouraged more settlement like they did in the 17th century with the Filles du Roi. Although a populated New France after the Seven Years War like I have might be a little implausible. But however the British held Canada against the much larger United States in our timeline. I should have made the point of departure for a French North America earlier that it is more plausible but I am not going to change the timeline it's too late.

 

[Dylanperr]

Chapter 59: WW1 and Treaty of Versailles​

The great major European powers, such as France, Britain, Spain, and Russia will eventually have a war with each other. As expanding power would cause future conflict between the major European Powers. France and Spain are growing massively in power which would concern their rivals such as Britain and Russia as they would begin to expand throughout pretty much the entire planet to be dominant world power.

Since Germany wouldn’t be united, the French being the most powerful and populated country in Europe would take their place as the aggressors on the European continent. So Britain, Russia, and along with maybe Portugal would form into an alliance to fight against France and Spain. Without Germany being united it would be less powerful so many of the German states would be split between to support the British/Russian alliance or the French/Spanish alliance.

Me personally, I think the Anglo-Russian alliance would win outside of Europe because the British would have the armies and vast resources of their North America possessions to pull from. This would mean the British would conquer all of North America west of Ontario and Minnesota because it was very lightly populated and the British can easily fill it up with English speaking immigrants. The British would also be able to conquer much of Eastern India (especially Bengal region) with their navy based in the Asia-Pacific region as well as Northeastern Africa from the French as well to.

But on the European continent, I would say the Franco-Spanish alliance would win without a doubt because Russia didn't do too well in WW1 and wasn't that prepared for it, the Germans and Italians aren't united in this timeline, and the Portuguese being a very small country that is bordering a much larger neighbour of Spain which is itself allied with the even larger country of France. So this would without a doubt make the Franco-Spanish alliance win on the continent. Having a weak disunited Germany (Austro-German empire in this timeline) and Italy this would likely mean they would become French client states. Portugal would likely be forced to become a Spanish client state as well. Russia due to the defeat in WW1 still has the Russian revolution, civil war, and ultimately becomes communist.

Treaty of Versailles
- France cedes Western Canada to Britain.
- Spain cedes Northern Mexico to Britain.
- France cedes Bengal, Burma, and Ceylon regions to Britain.
- France cedes Northeast Africa and Madagascar to Britain.
- Spain cedes Philippines to Britain.

Effects of WW1
- French Empire retains its position as the dominant continental power.
- British and Russian Empires would rise to world power status.
- Much of the German and Italian states become client state to the French.
- Portugal becomes a client state to the Spanish.
- Russia would still fall to communism due to the defeat in WW1.

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