"War for the Planet of the Emus"
Coming soon to a theatre near you
I wonder if Aururians have some folklore or myths about emus developing humanlike intelligence then coming together to wage battle against and overthrow their human oppressors.
"War for the Planet of the Emus"
Coming soon to a theatre near you
... They do now.I wonder if Aururians have some folklore or myths about emus developing humanlike intelligence then coming together to wage battle against and overthrow their human oppressors.
For symmetry I'd have thought more of an Atjuntja belief. The Tjibarri would be more likely to try to incorporate the intelligent emus into the Endless Dance than start a war.Specifically, the Tjibarri?
Hm.For symmetry I'd have thought more of an Atjuntja belief. The Tjibarri would be more likely to try to incorporate the intelligent emus into the Endless Dance than start a war.
The Mutjing in the middle (Eyre Peninsula) would be an alternative.Hm.
I was just trying to think of someone other than the Atjuntja or the eastcoasters.
Certainly. Having chains of missionaries teaching other is fine. The concern is about written works alone, rather than written works being using in conjunction with personal contact to explain them. Conceivably even that problem could be addressed with suitably crafted pamphlets or the like, but the concern is that the existing main religious tracts (Endless Road and others) might contain too much truth for people to grasp at once.But this can conceivably be taken care of through how missionaries teach, by emphasizing the danger of assuming that one knows how best to behave with only half the knowledge. It might even be more agreeable to people to know that they can behave as they always have for the moment, until at whatever point they are judged to have all the knowledge in the ways of harmony. So if they shy off halfway through, they're likely to go back to their old ways instead of behaving according to misconceptions of Plirism.
Oh, Plirism does not face the problem of being tainted by association with a foreign power that might meddle in Japan. That's not the issue. The question is whether by the time Plirism arrives on the scene, the Japanese government focus on preventing foreign influence for its own sake, rather than due to fear of being used as fifth-columnists or the like. If Plirism had arrived around the time Christianity did in OTL, then I think it would probably spread as far or further than Christianity did, without the severe backlash. But it doesn't arrive then. Plirism arrives right when the Japanese government is trying to close out foreign influence entirely, not just Christianity. I'd like to know more about what the Japanese government view was by then before making any definitive decision about Plirite success or otherwise in Japanese missionary activity.I'm not saying look at just Wikipedia, but see the history of Christianity persecution in Japan. The pushback against Christians started essentially because of fear and suspicion of the Catholic European colonial powers, especially Spain (and also Portugal), which had conquered and converted the Philippines. At first the spread of Catholicism was welcomed because it would've acted as a counterbalance to the power of the Buddhists, who were rather powerful. But then you had persecution and the many martyrs. And then after violent revolts, most famous being the Shimabara Rebellion, Christianity was officially banned and persecuted and Christians went underground.
Plirites can avoid all of the persecution that the Christians received by virtue of not being represented by a powerful outside colonial power. And without the persecution Plirites would never have to rebel against the state at any point. The history of Plirism in Japan would conceivably be very different from that of Christianity.
Short answer is monarchy, whether absolute or constitutional. Absolute monarchy developed more strongly in TTL's Europe due to various side-effects of Aururian contact and plagues, particularly in weakening the power of the aristocracy because rents (which were usually fixed) were eroded via inflation, leading centralising monarchs to establish more absolutist regimes.Huh, with the mentions of ATL nationalism it sounds in fact like an ideology developed in reaction / opposition to what in OTL is nationalism, or at least statist nationalism. So what is the status quo in ATL if not that?
Bit far ahead of the tale to go into too many details, but this depends on when China reunites, for one thing. It is divided at this point ITTL, between the northern You and the Southern Ming (and maybe another breakaway southern dynasty), with foreigners actually reserving the name China for the Ming state. (This is why ATL China is eventually known as Cathay). If China hasn't reunited yet, then obviously European colonial policy will be much more about trying to play off differences between the two (or three) Chinese states.In OTL the European colonial powers assisted the Qing in fighting against the Taiping Rebellion, mostly because they wanted the Qing regime to persist since it suited said powers (the Qing were easy to deal with when it came to their colonial ambitions in China). What would the Europeans want to do ITTL in regards to such a rebellion?
How will the Great Emu War of '32 will be like ITTL.
"War for the Planet of the Emus"
Coming soon to a theatre near you
It's possible that there will be an Emu War Remembrance Special post at some point...I wonder if Aururians have some folklore or myths about emus developing humanlike intelligence then coming together to wage battle against and overthrow their human oppressors.
Certainly. Having chains of missionaries teaching other is fine. The concern is about written works alone, rather than written works being using in conjunction with personal contact to explain them. Conceivably even that problem could be addressed with suitably crafted pamphlets or the like, but the concern is that the existing main religious tracts (Endless Road and others) might contain too much truth for people to grasp at once.
Oh, Plirism does not face the problem of being tainted by association with a foreign power that might meddle in Japan. That's not the issue. The question is whether by the time Plirism arrives on the scene, the Japanese government focus on preventing foreign influence for its own sake, rather than due to fear of being used as fifth-columnists or the like. If Plirism had arrived around the time Christianity did in OTL, then I think it would probably spread as far or further than Christianity did, without the severe backlash. But it doesn't arrive then. Plirism arrives right when the Japanese government is trying to close out foreign influence entirely, not just Christianity. I'd like to know more about what the Japanese government view was by then before making any definitive decision about Plirite success or otherwise in Japanese missionary activity.
Short answer is monarchy, whether absolute or constitutional. Absolute monarchy developed more strongly in TTL's Europe due to various side-effects of Aururian contact and plagues, particularly in weakening the power of the aristocracy because rents (which were usually fixed) were eroded via inflation, leading centralising monarchs to establish more absolutist regimes.
One other example I can give is that one thread of TTL's nationalism develops from the Congxie, whose lands are divided between several competing states, but they see themselves as part of the same sovereign nation no matter where they live, and no matter who claims the soil.
Bit far ahead of the tale to go into too many details, but this depends on when China reunites, for one thing. It is divided at this point ITTL, between the northern You and the Southern Ming (and maybe another breakaway southern dynasty), with foreigners actually reserving the name China for the Ming state. (This is why ATL China is eventually known as Cathay). If China hasn't reunited yet, then obviously European colonial policy will be much more about trying to play off differences between the two (or three) Chinese states.
The issue is that I'm pretty sure that by the time Europeans contacted Aururia, Japan was pretty unavoidably on a track towards Sakoku, if not already having implemented it.As I mentioned, I am certain that there are many Plirite schools within the Nuttana alone that would have much different conceptions of what "too much truth" means, and how best to educate those new to the faith. And if they sponsor missions to Japan, they'll likely have a lot more success than those too conservative and slow in their approach.
I think making use of Japanese missionaries almost entirely cuts out the problem of Plirism being seen as meddling foreign influence, also see the previous post I made which was went into more detail on the Shogunate's policy in regards to religion. Also consider that Plirism likely doesn't have any conception of "conversion". Conversion is really an Abrahamic thing, and it's mostly Christianity and Islam which tend to make a big show of peoples' initiation into the faith. In religions like Buddhism, Taoism, and the like, you don't really "convert", you either practice it or you don't. That fact in itself,I think, will guard Plirism against suspicion from the Japanese authorities, with there being no mass conversions or anything of the like as there was with Christianity in Japan.
Are there any ideologies which are concerned with economic organization? Many important revolutions IOTL which overthrew absolutist regimes had major economic reorganizations alongside them. French Revolution is seen as a bourgeois revolution, bringing to power merchants and proto-capitalist petty bourgeois classes into power and overthrowing the aristocratic elite. And obviously socialism and communism which overthrew Russia's Tsar. And these are just revolutions, not reformations. You can't have a revolutionary ideology that doesn't concern itself with economics (or really any ideology, revolutionary or not). What's the economic side of TTL's nationalism?
Then these states (or any one of them) would probably be a lot more open to the outside world than the Qing were. Depending on how much foreign involvement there is in the Chinese reunion, I expect support to be given to the side that's more open to outside powers. Or if both are open to Europeans, then that's clear basis for a proxy war between the great powers who're involved in China.
Speaking of which, what're the Nuttana doing in China?
The issue is that I'm pretty sure that by the time Europeans contacted Aururia, Japan was pretty unavoidably on a track towards Sakoku, if not already having implemented it.
Re: Plirite influence in Japan, the issue remains that there's no getting around that Plirism is a foreign religion. The Japanese people know it, and the Japanese government know it. As I've stated above, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Japanese government will oppose it, since most of the factors which inspired fear of Christianity are utterly irrelevant to Plirism. I'm not averse to the idea of exploring the spread of Plirism in ATL Japan. But before making any firm decision I'd like track down a more comprehensive source than Wikipedia about what was the Japanese view of foreign influence was during the sakoku period.I think making use of Japanese missionaries almost entirely cuts out the problem of Plirism being seen as meddling foreign influence, also see the previous post I made which was went into more detail on the Shogunate's policy in regards to religion. Also consider that Plirism likely doesn't have any conception of "conversion". Conversion is really an Abrahamic thing, and it's mostly Christianity and Islam which tend to make a big show of peoples' initiation into the faith. In religions like Buddhism, Taoism, and the like, you don't really "convert", you either practice it or you don't. That fact in itself,I think, will guard Plirism against suspicion from the Japanese authorities, with there being no mass conversions or anything of the like as there was with Christianity in Japan.
Seeing ideologies primarily in economic terms is itself a construct of Karl Marx and his legacy, which is hard to avoid in OTL, but which does not necessarily follow in ATLs. The classification of the French Revolution as a bourgeois revolution, for instance, was an after-the-fact attempted explanation by Karl Marx, rather than representing the views of the people at the time. (And the people of the time were hardly unified in their views either, which allows lots of later interpretations to be drawn).Are there any ideologies which are concerned with economic organization? Many important revolutions IOTL which overthrew absolutist regimes had major economic reorganizations alongside them. French Revolution is seen as a bourgeois revolution, bringing to power merchants and proto-capitalist petty bourgeois classes into power and overthrowing the aristocratic elite. And obviously socialism and communism which overthrew Russia's Tsar. And these are just revolutions, not reformations. You can't have a revolutionary ideology that doesn't concern itself with economics (or really any ideology, revolutionary or not). What's the economic side of TTL's nationalism?
For now, both Chinese states are generally more open to trade, though not completely unrestricted trade. In terms of foreign involvement in the eventual Chinese reunion, that depends on the period of the reunification. If it happens any time soon, the European involvement will be minor at best since the Chinese states are rather large enough to dictate their own terms, i.e. they could not really be considered proxy wars, but Chinese wars in which foreign powers have an interest but minimal influence. If the Chinese reunification happens much later, then that might be different.Then these states (or any one of them) would probably be a lot more open to the outside world than the Qing were. Depending on how much foreign involvement there is in the Chinese reunion, I expect support to be given to the side that's more open to outside powers. Or if both are open to Europeans, then that's clear basis for a proxy war between the great powers who're involved in China.
Trading quite happily, for the most part, in whichever trading ports are open. (I know that there will be trade ports open in both China and Cathay, but have not specified how many and which ones). There are several Aururian goods which are of interest in China, and to a lesser degree the reverse, and the Nuttana have a good share of that trade. They're one of the major intermediaries of the flow of Aururian silver to China, for instance. Ditto for premium kunduri products (a small market in Chinese terms but a lucrative one from the Nuttana perspective). Jeeree, and some Aururian spices are also valued. From the Chinese side of the ledger, silk and porcelain are the two most-valued Chinese goods in Aururia, though the silk trade is starting to face local Aururian competition. Tea is bought by Nuttana traders but mostly for on-selling to Europeans; tea has only a very limited market in Aururia.Speaking of which, what're the Nuttana doing in China?
Taking these in order:E: I was wondering about the status of a few possible domesticables ITTL:
Terminalia ferdinandiana, Cochlospermum gillivraei, Syzygium suborbiculare, Austromyrtus dulcis, various Billardiera species, and Pleiogynium timorense.
I haven't forgotten that discussion, just postponed working out the matter until Act III, when the timeline will start to have more focus on the broader world again. (Very deliberately, Act II focuses on the world through Aururian and Aotearoan eyes, so what's happening elsewhere in the world is usually on shown through what's heard in Aururia.)And to hearken back to a discussion long ago on possible Nuttana trading posts in South America, I think the best possible spot now is Chiloé island. I think it's fair to assume that the area would ITTL be a ways away from any viable level of Spanish power projection. In OTL the Spanish presence in the area was represented by crumbling forts garrisoned by skeleton crews who were incredibly difficult to supply. Add on to this the Aururian Plagues from TTL and I can easily see the Spanish basically writing off all of Chile except for the silver mines (and a more tenuous hold onto the rest of South America, manpower-wise, than OTL). So the Spanish wouldn't have the capacity to oppose a trade post, and might even allow the Nuttana restricted trade with a few colonies, because the situation would be grim enough TTL that trade with an outside nation might stimulate the worse-off colonial economies. In fact, this TL seems likely to be one where the Spanish are more open to cutting back on their extreme protectionist policies in the colonies, at least a little, depending on how hard the Aururian plagues hit them.
This is an intriguing idea, but I have no idea about how quick such processes would be. Bog iron renews over a timescale of centuries, but this would potentially be a faster process than that.I was thinking of whether iron bacteria can be collected and used to produce iron oxide out of iron-heavy waters and soils in vats. If the bacteria can produce the characteristic ferric oxide heavy slime / sludge in these conditions, then that can be collected to be smelted into usable iron. It would also be a way to recycle unusable scraps of iron as the bacteria would corrode them in time and add them to the sludge output. The problem is the time for this process to happen, it might be too slow to present a possible alternative to other sources of iron ore.
Glad you liked the timeline.Great timeline. Apologies if I missed it, but was the exact nature of what Wemba revealed to Lopitja on his deathbed ever revealed, or is that still to come?
The smart-arse answer is that the Aururians do have a shorter way to express the dates, just that if I converted that directly it would make very little sense to Europeans. Writing the date as 4.10.382 would be concise, but also extremely uninformative. (That particular date converts to 10 July 1621, incidentally). The longer version of 4.10.382 can be stated as Serpent Day, Cycle of Salt, 382nd Year of Harmony. That's not noticeably longer than the full version of the European date for the same day, which is Saturday, 10th of July, Year of Our Lord 1621.Special request. Could the Aururians perhaps find a less verhose way to express the date sometime in the near futurepast?
Cheers.
Re: Plirite influence in Japan, the issue remains that there's no getting around that Plirism is a foreign religion. The Japanese people know it, and the Japanese government know it. As I've stated above, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Japanese government will oppose it, since most of the factors which inspired fear of Christianity are utterly irrelevant to Plirism. I'm not averse to the idea of exploring the spread of Plirism in ATL Japan. But before making any firm decision I'd like track down a more comprehensive source than Wikipedia about what was the Japanese view of foreign influence was during the sakoku period.
The point about conversion is an interesting one. Plirism sits somewhere between Buddhism and Christianity in terms of how conversion is achieved and displayed. In Buddhist conversions, while there isn't normally as much of an emphasis on a particular conversion ritual, there is often (though not universally) a process such as recital of acceptance of the Triple Gems. For Plirism, as usual it varies on the school. For the purposes of Nangu/Nuttana schools, though, they do have a traditional public affirmation of faith which is recited by someone who wishes to show that they have become a Plirite:
“Ta mal-pa Pliri, ni gapu-pa Bula Gakal-girri marang.” (There is but one Harmony, and only the Sevenfold Path will give it balance.) This was recited by the first Māori king to convert to Plirism, for instance. It's not as ostentatious as a baptism ritual, but it is an expectation, and that may be of note to Japanese authorities. On the other hand, it may not be seen as too different to practices in existing Japanese Buddhism. I think that one could go either way.
Seeing ideologies primarily in economic terms is itself a construct of Karl Marx and his legacy, which is hard to avoid in OTL, but which does not necessarily follow in ATLs. The classification of the French Revolution as a bourgeois revolution, for instance, was an after-the-fact attempted explanation by Karl Marx, rather than representing the views of the people at the time. (And the people of the time were hardly unified in their views either, which allows lots of later interpretations to be drawn).
Which is not to say that ATL ideologies do not have positions on economics, but their ideologies aren't predicated on explaining the world in economic terms. Instead, they look at the world through other lenses, and while these ideologies lead to various consequences for economic decisions and social organisation, their positions on economics depends on how they align with other goals. For instance, in a case where a people consider themselves a sovereign nation but oppressed or exploited, they may have a view on redistribution of wealth or taxation or other such matters. But TTL's nationalism does not have any default position on economics.
For now, both Chinese states are generally more open to trade, though not completely unrestricted trade. In terms of foreign involvement in the eventual Chinese reunion, that depends on the period of the reunification. If it happens any time soon, the European involvement will be minor at best since the Chinese states are rather large enough to dictate their own terms, i.e. they could not really be considered proxy wars, but Chinese wars in which foreign powers have an interest but minimal influence. If the Chinese reunification happens much later, then that might be different.
Trading quite happily, for the most part, in whichever trading ports are open. (I know that there will be trade ports open in both China and Cathay, but have not specified how many and which ones). There are several Aururian goods which are of interest in China, and to a lesser degree the reverse, and the Nuttana have a good share of that trade. They're one of the major intermediaries of the flow of Aururian silver to China, for instance. Ditto for premium kunduri products (a small market in Chinese terms but a lucrative one from the Nuttana perspective). Jeeree, and some Aururian spices are also valued. From the Chinese side of the ledger, silk and porcelain are the two most-valued Chinese goods in Aururia, though the silk trade is starting to face local Aururian competition. Tea is bought by Nuttana traders but mostly for on-selling to Europeans; tea has only a very limited market in Aururia.
Terminalia ferdinandiana, one of several species commonly called Kakadu plum, is not domesticated. Its fruit is very tasty and with extremely high Vitamin C levels. Its native range is basically Northern Territory plus northwestern WA. Not a place where any farming peoples are present enough to domesticate it.
In general terms, though, Spanish control of South America is mixed because while they have fewer people to rule much of the continent, the populations of the indigenous peoples are reduced by as much or even more. So it's not clear whether their control would be weakened that much. Chiloé had some attractions as a religious outpost for missions, and there may still be an interest in doing that even if general royal power is waning.
If the Nuttana are interested in setting up a trading post for trade to Chile itself, then Chiloé is an attractive station. However, if they are starting up mostly by setting a way-station/ resupply point for the southern circumnavigation route, then Chiloé is probably too far north. So they may start somewhere much further south, and only venture north slowly from there.
This is an intriguing idea, but I have no idea about how quick such processes would be. Bog iron renews over a timescale of centuries, but this would potentially be a faster process than that.
As an aside, a question I'm still uncertain of is whether all Aururians will ever adopt and/or retain the European calendar for secular purposes. The European calendar spread around the world mostly through colonisation, though even uncolonised nations adopted it eventually - the Chinese being the last to do so, about 1949 if memory serves. ITTL... a directly colonised nation would presumably be forced to switch. If it's one of the other methods of colonisation, such as protectorates/client states, it's not as clear if they would do so. Or if a formerly colonised nation regains its independence, would it want to revert its calendar?