Lands of Red and Gold, Act II

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Jared, Jul 22, 2013.

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  1. Jared LoRaG is now published

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    Given the number of aspersions he cast on my character, I'm not hugely fond of him either.

    I take it that Mr Hume, Eʃq. failed in his goal of edification of diverse readers?

    More seriously, this chapter was partly meant to be having fun writing in the character of TTL's equivalent of Clive Pompous-Arse, but there are some genuine nuggets of foreshadowing there, buried deep in Mr Hume, Eʃq.'s rather turgid, torturous and twisted prose... damn, now I'm starting to sound like him. @LostInNewDelhi has already started to draw some of those bits of foreshadowing out, and there are others.

    In his case, the writer and the reader are two individuals separated by a common language.

    That's close to the mark, but as you note, there's more going on that.

    There's several different ideological threads which have led to TTL's modern world being the way it is. Solidarity Jenkins is a labour organiser par excellence, and he's also the co-author of something called The Nationalist Manifesto, a nineteenth-century document where some brief excerpts have been used as opening quotes in a couple of chapters. Without going into too much detail, I'd note that Mr Hume, Eʃq. had no concept of there being such a thing as a national government. The basic modern conception of sovereignty goes to the nation-state, but ITTL Mr Hume, Eʃq. (and others) have drawn a sharp distinction between what a state is and what a nation is.

    France may go through a Revolution, or it just may adopt a revolutionary attitude.
     
  2. Analytical Engine Monarchist Collectivist Federalist

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    Does that mean that France goes around in circles, or that its government needs a revolving door?
     
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  3. Jared LoRaG is now published

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    Why not both?
     
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  4. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

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    France might not be the only country with mind-bending governance. Hume claims that "involuntary intercourse is rare" between the constituent nations, which seems impossible in a federation as we would understand it-- does one part never use its demographic clout to vote for measures of which the other disapproves? On the whole he discusses commerce as a pan-British force a lot more than he does law, and almost regards questions about legal linkage with distaste. So just how decentralized can a state become when it's deprived of its claims to represent a nation? And just how does the Commonwealth build consensus between all its member nations on revolutionary pan-island changes like abolishing burghs and shires soon after its establishment-- or, as Hume darkly implies, its "imposition, nay, installation"? Of course, Mr Hume might just be idealizing the system that governs his "fair and glorious realm," things might be a little more chaotic/less libertarian than implied.

    Also, if nations are truly decoupled from states, then there can be no good reason to change borders-- if a national group is divided by a state border, the response should be for each "segment" to seek full national status within its "home" state, not to seek the transfer of territory to a more deserving state or the establishment of a new state as a "national home". After all, a Scot is a Scot no matter where he is. But sooner or later someone will point out that the status-quo states aren't value-neutral: they came to exist through campaigns of conquest and associated injustices/atrocities. Why should nations torn asunder by strong states not seek the establishment of one of their own, especially if their rights as a nation cannot be satisfactorily guaranteed by the existing states?

    Though the long-term plan is probably the opposite, I can't help but see panollidism as the probable "imperialism with a human face" ideology, while anticolonialism takes a more irredentist tack reminiscent of Risorgimento ideology and its successors.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
  5. Tamar of the Tamar tribe Well-Known Member

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    Great Timeline!!! What's happening with West Africa? What's happening with European arts and culture? Is technology going to be very steampunk?
     
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  6. Somebody-Someone Well-Known Member

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    1. West Africa was hit by Aururian diseases and the slave trade got slowed down as a result. There is some state called Benin. Kanem-Bornu exists. Portugal has a SoI along the coast going from somewhere in Angola through Equatorial Guinea. There are British, French, Dutch and Portuguese forts along the coast north/west of that. Other than that, West Africa has not been addressed ITTL and will not be until Jared has researched it more.
    2. I think that that answer would be better addressed depending on the regions. Regional cultures have been affected, but Europe as a whole has not.
    3. Probably not. IIRC, Jared does not do steampunk.
     
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  7. Jared LoRaG is now published

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    Good questions. There's a fair bit to unpack here, including some bits which it would be too spoilerific to answer in detail.

    I can give part of the answer, though. Mr Hume, Eʃq. stated that "The ʃyʃtem of burghs and ʃhires did not long outlaʃt the eʃtabliʃhment of the Common Wealth". The timing is important here. The Commonwealth is stated as being formed a long time ago while the office of "King of the Scots" was at some unclear time more recently, though probably not within his lifetime as he would remember that (he's got that sort of memory). In other words, the burghs and shires were probably abolished before the King of Scots was re-established. Given that some of the burghs (though not all) were established as royal burghs, and the Commonwealth is described as abolishing the crown, that may give some slight hints as to the motivation behind the abolition of the system of burghs and shires.

    In other words, the "modern" (1960s) status of Scotland with a Scottish Nation - sorry, a Scottiʃh Nation - may be part of the legacy of a reaction to the actions of the early Commonwealth and how things get resolved down the track.

    For border changes, there is also the question of whether federations or different levels of states and governments can arise across different regions. While the timeline proper hasn't really progressed to the point where I can show it, in the previous commentary I've noted that the question of what counts as sovereignty is much more complex ITTL, so a nation which is trying to improve its sovereignty may have more options than just trying to shift borders around between states.

    That said, I'd also note that since back in the early days of the Christmas specials, there was a reference to a freedom fighter terrorist group which was seeking a Congxie "homeland" as one of its aims. So even amongst the Congxie, who are the prototypical idea of what counts as a "nation" ITTL, there is at least one group who is trying for border changes instead.

    Well, I'd note that panollidism is not in itself either colonial or anti-colonial; rather, it could be exploited for either purpose depending on the nature of the regime. Its counterpoint is monism, which again could be exploited for either colonial or anti-colonial purposes. It can get quite complex.

    The other point I'd note from the previous post is what was said here:
    That is a very Plirite thing to say. It could quite easily be said by a seventeeth-century Nangu (well, if they had learned English and adopted the long s(ʃ)). Yet it is being espoused by someone who is proudly and emphatically Christian and who states that he tries not to interact much even with other kinds of Christians, to say nothing of non-Christians. That suggests that at least some Plirite concepts have permeated the broader global culture far more than Plirism itself might have.

    Thanks for the praise. In terms of your questions, I've provided some very general answers below, but note that for Act II of this timeline, I've very deliberately focused on Aururia and Aotearoa itself and shown only glimpses of the rest of the world, usually through Aururian eyes. This is a deliberate choice to keep the timeline focused, otherwise I'll probably end up like the last timeline I wrote before that where I ended up getting sidetracked into different parts of the world and the timeline took forever to get to the end. (And that was with a more recent divergence; with this one being a bigger and older divergence, things would get even worse.

    For West Africa, there are two key changes:
    - Less European involvement, due to a smaller European and European-descended population meaning that there are not as many of them seeking slaves (smaller number of sugar plantations and others in the Americas)
    - Changes to West African societies due to the impact of Aururian diseases.

    I really don't know enough about West African societies in that era to speculate on what the social changes would be, though I'd welcome some input from someone who knows them in more detail. For the European aspect, it means fewer efforts at setting up trading posts and the like, though I haven't specified exactly which European power has trading posts where. (I imagine that the locations of trading posts would frequently change anyway, given that Europeans are fighting each other and probably some actions by West Africans to kick Europeans out at various times and places.)

    In terms of how European arts and culture have changed, again this is a massive topic and I haven't gone into much detail. There will be some snippets when I finish the travelogue sequence of posts of an Aururian visiting Europe. That travelogue sequence is still in the works, but delayed due to various other LoRaG writing commitments which I've been working on and will make an announcement about in this thread in due course. I can say that some of the broader European cultural impacts have been an earlier and strong shift toward absolutism, with the power of the aristocracy being curtailed due to various economic impacts of Aururian contact (higher inflation being the biggest) and also some of the political changes of the alt-Thirty Years War. Kunduri has also been very influential in several senses of the word.

    In terms of steampunk, it's not really my thing, although I will be exploring alternate technological paths a fair bit in the alt-nineteenth century. One of these may involve a more workable analogue to Babbage's engines. It's not really steampunk though, either in aesthetics or in steam engines (since they use Stirling engines).
     
  8. interpoltomo please don't do coke in the bathroom

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    question: has anyone made any maps of where the aururian crops grow?
     
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  9. Jared LoRaG is now published

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    There were some created long ago in the early days of the timelines, but I believe that most of those links no longer work.

    I can give some input if anyone would like to design fresh maps.
     
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  10. interpoltomo please don't do coke in the bathroom

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    Yeah, those links not working is exactly why I asked.
     
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  11. Jared LoRaG is now published

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    At least one of those images still shows up on google image search for "lands of red and gold" - for me it's the first image that shows up in the search.
     
  12. Threadmarks: Lands of Red and Gold is now published!

    Jared LoRaG is now published

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    Announcement - Lands of Red and Gold is now published!

    I'm pleased to announce that the first volume of Lands of Red and Gold is now published through Sea Lion Press.

    [​IMG]

    It is now available as an e-book on Amazon here (UK site) and here (US site).

    The first volume, Walking Through Dreams is based on approximately the first 46 chapters of the timeline, although with a few later chapters moved in. It has been significantly revised and cleaned up, and includes over 10,000 words of new material as well as some new maps courtesy of @Alex Richards.

    For the purposes of readers here, I should add that I will continue to be writing new timeline chapters on AH.com, although for the next couple of months I'll be busy revising and expanding volumes 2 and 3 in preparation for publication. The published version will be the canonical version, although there aren't too many changes to what's been written on AH.com; mostly the published version just adds further details to the story rather than retconning what's been written here.

    If you read the published version and like it, I'd be extremely grateful if you could review it on Amazon or Goodreads. No need to write a long review (unless you really want to, of course), but even a few words about what you thought of it would be highly appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  13. Tamar of the Tamar tribe Well-Known Member

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    Will there be a paperback version?
     
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  14. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

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    Volume 3? Is that Act III?
     
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  15. Jared LoRaG is now published

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    When I looked at the length of the timeline, the new ideas I had for some sections, and a decent length for a published book, I ended up breaking the existing timeline into three volumes.

    Book 1 is the prologue plus Act I until approximately the end of Nuyts' invasion of the Yadji. It's not exactly that because I moved a couple of earlier chapters later and moved some later chapters earlier, as well as the new material I added, but that's a rough guide.
    Book 2 is the lead-up to and then the Proxy Wars. This book is going to have a lot of new material since I've fleshed out parts of the world and will include quite a few new chapters about other fronts in the Proxy Wars.
    Book 3 is the rest of the published timeline to the end of the Hunter sequence. It will also include significant new material, both during the Hunter sequence and also a few other areas.

    The rest of Act II and then Act III will be covered in future volumes after that, although they will be a while away.
     
  16. Jared LoRaG is now published

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    That's a definite maybe.

    Sea Lion Press turn some of their ebooks into paperbacks as well, but not all, but from what I can see, they start with ebooks and then make a decision on whether to publish a paperback as well. If a paperback version comes out, I'll announce it in this thread.

    I've asked SLP for clarification.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
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  17. Dominic Well-Known Member

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    Congratulations Jared, will be sure to buy and review in support of this excellent work. Out of interest, does this mean that certain other works might be hitting the virtual shelves in the foreseeable future?
     
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  18. Jared LoRaG is now published

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    In the short term, the only other fiction* I'm likely to have published is short stories in various anthologies published also via SLP. There are a few I've submitted; will have to see how many end up getting published.

    In the medium term, my focus is on getting volumes 2 and 3 of LoRaG expanded and ready for publication. I haven't given too much thought to what to seek to have published after that. DoD is one possibility, as was discussed upthread, although that would require a substantial rewrite or just leaving readers to wonder about how it clashes with the published timeline.

    Or I may dust off some of my other unfinished works such as Into The White Planet (life bearing Venus) or Gatecrashers (a setting where "gates" appear and disappear between different timelines).

    Or I may write some other shorter tales set in the backstory of LoRaG - I have a few ideas along those lines - or just come up with something totally new.

    Edit: * Excluding the kind of fiction known as "business documents," that is.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
  19. Dominic Well-Known Member

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    Any chance of 'The Fox and the Jackal'?
     
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  20. Jared LoRaG is now published

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    That falls under the category of DoD I mentioned. If I write it first I have it clash significantly with the published timeline, which will confuse everyone and also mean that the timeline has been spoilered when whenever I do update it.

    Or I could update it, which would be a... significant task.
     
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