Lands of Red and Gold, Act II
- Thread starter Jared
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Or a "Victorian" polity may outright invade and colonise a "Tasmanian" polity, which I find entertaining too.
In the pre-European contact period, there would not have been more than 25% Atjuntja, and that includes some semi-assimilated other peoples. The balance were made up of another 10 or so peoples (depending on where the lines are drawn) who speak related but not always mutually intelligible dialects/languages.
In terms of how culturally different they are, well, as with many such things, it's in the eye of the beholder. To outsiders, the cultural differences are relatively small. The Yaoaran peoples share a common cultural heritage, common agricultural systems, and a broadly similar conceptual religious universe. To the peoples themselves, though, small differences seem much larger. Differences in dress, style, and nuances of religion matter more to them. For instance, the common religious-conceptual universe is there, but only the Atjuntja had the concept of the Lord and Lady and mitigating potential catastrophe through sacrifice. What also matters is difference in attitude: the Atjuntja look down on others, and so any small differences in what Atjuntja do versus non-Atjuntja (e.g. beards) seems much more important.
Post-European contact, the total population of course collapses, but proportionately the Atjuntja survive in greater numbers. This is due to a combination of being able to obtain a greater percentage of the food, and subject peoples being more inclined to revolt (and be killed) during the great problems. There is also a growing percentage of slaves (and former slaves, in some cases), but they would still be a relatively small percentage of the population, since the majority of the imported slaves are men and many slaves end up in the gold mines, where death is likely and reproduction unlikely.
There's already pseudo-Calvinist and pseudo-Plirite cults running around the Middle Country; since the power of the King of Kings was broken, there's nothing to prevent foreign missionary influence. The divisions don't run strictly on ethnic lines, but the cults are often based in specific regions, so it's possible to get some cults which are generally associated with a particular ethnicity.
That said, the VOC don't actively pursue converts. It's part of their general policy, as per historical precedent elsewhere in the world, and this restraint usually makes them more accepted amongst the nobles in the Middle Country. This is because most (though certainly not all) nobles view foreign cults as dangerous subversions since rebels often claim different religious beliefs..
I haven't heard of any such process. Eggs contain about 0.16% sulphur, so it would have to be a very efficient process to extract useful amounts of sulphur.
For Act II of this timeline, I'm deliberately focusing on what's happening in *Australia, with the rest of the world only being seen through Aururian eyes. That's why there hasn't been much in the way of glimpses of life elsewhere. Act III is when I'll start to give more insight into what's been happening in different parts of the world.
Africa and Asia are also rather large areas to describe. If you have questions about a particular region or two, I can probably give some general overview of how things have changed.
Seen the latest ABS stats on glorious Victorian population growth? Victoria is the inevitable centre of Australian/Aururian civilisation. #durigalforcontinentalhegemon
Not that I know of. I wouldn't have a clue on how to create one, either. I believe there's a couple of LoRaG pages on the AH.com wiki.
Taking these in reverse order...
Napoleon is much too late to exist, having been a victim of occendium cum papilionem.
OTL Latin America is still largely a Spanish/Portuguese preserve. The Dutch were around in Brazil for longer than in OTL but eventually pushed out. The casualty rates from Aururian plagues have meant that many of the indigenous peoples have been even more badly-hit than in OTL. As a partial consequence, Spanish silver production is considerably down on OTL; there are simply not as many indigenous peoples who can be enslaved to work on silver production. (Global silver production is higher than OTL, but that's another story.) On the more positive side, Aururian crops are spreading very well in a few places, most notably the area of OTL Argentina, and leading to some social changes there.
In terms of ideologies, yes, new ideologies are emerging. References have been made in this TL already to panollidism and monism, though not many details have been provided yet. This will be gradually revealed over time as to what these man.
In terms of South Asia, it's probably best just to quote myself from the last time things were asked about how the Indian subcontinent had turned out:
I'd add to this earlier explanation that various Aururian spices have become complementary flavourings in Indian cuisine, not so much displacing existing spices but as adding additional flavourings. Sweet peppers, in particular, are used in this way.
In terms of central Asia, Tibet is still a sovereign power, with divided China in no capacity to project power to subdue them. The same process of firearms allowing agricultural states to displace nomads has gradually started elsewhere in Central Asia, with Persia making some inroads and the Russian state also encroaching on parts, though there is still a reasonably strong Dzungar khanate as well.
Given that the rest of the Hunter sequence is coming soon, maybe I should set up #dominionofharmonywillrise
I actually like Tjibarr more than any of the other Aururian nations but arbitrary geographic loyalty makes me hope that Durigal steals their grand prix.
More generally I get the feeling that while the present order in SE Aururia is clearly about to get Hunter'd there is a good chance that we'll see some sort of 19th/20th Europe-style competition there, come the 19th/20th centuries. Semi-colonial rivalry, gunboat diplomacy, lots of fun. I can envisage *Tjibarr, *Durigal, and the Natunna all competing for influence up and down the coasts of Aururia and into Aotearoa and the broader Pacific. I guess it depends on how European power goes in the Eastern half of the continent; I hope it declines heavily in the 18th century. We are due for some sort of Seven Years War right?
*=whatever emerges from the Hunter.
Do you mean directly or indirectly? The Hunter does not seem specifically keen on killing people, though obviously quite willing to do so. But if you mean simply due to the ensuing chaos, then quite possibly...
Speaking of Napoleon, ITTL I wonder how Aururian crops will change the economy and political situation in Genoa, and thus Corsica. Perhaps we might as well consider Napoleon butterflied.
Also, I've been really busy with real life stuff, you know, work, university, all that kind of thing which takes time away from being spent on hobbies
. So I apologize for holding up the next sequence of TL updates because of lack of progress on the graphics work on my part, I'm very soon going to be finishing a semester of university and will have plenty of time to get back on that, so the wait won't be much longer! Also, want to contribute to the discussions that's been going on in the thread the last few pages, will do so later.Though since we're talking about the rest of the world outside Aururia, I was keen on the future of Japan ITTL, because save Nanban influence, I imagine there will also be plenty of Aururian influence, principally through the Nuttana. So just like European science, philosophy, and religion made its way to Japan, I imagine some deal of Aururian philosophy, science, and religion will also make their way into Japanese society.
I realize that during the Sakoku period of Japan that the TL is in the spread of outside influence to Japan will be restricted, but it won't be completely stopped, also since considering that trade continued with outsiders albeit severely curtailed. So while the penetration of Aururian influences will be slowed during the time, I don't believe that it will have stopped. I wonder how the Japanese differentiate between Europeans and Aururians, and their respective knowledge bases and cultures.
Nanban befits the Aururians better than Europeans, to be sure. I guess one being Christian and the other Plirite would be a major factor in how the Japanese differentiate the two, culture and appearance notwithstanding. Wonder who will win over more Japanese, or perhaps will there be parts of Japan with more European influence and parts with more Aururian influence?
My favourite Aururian nation is whichever one I'm writing from the perspective of at the time, though I do like how the Tjibarri perspective is so alien to the European mindset, since it allows for some interesting cultural clashes.
It's fairly safe to say that whatever else happens, Aururia is unlikely to be united, even just eastern Aururia. That leads to all sorts of possibilities for later rivalries, diplomacy via cannonshell, and the like.
The upcoming Nine Years' War has been mentioned a few times. While no analogy should be stretched too far, it is indeed going to involve multiple theatres on several continents, including at least Europe, Aururia, Asia and North America. The depiction of the Aururian front of that war is essentially the culmination of Act II.
The Hunter's general style has been shown by his invasion of the Kiyungu. He opened with a bid to intimidate them into submission. When they refused, he made examples of cities (i.e. examples of how to die quickly and in numbers) to persuade the rest to submit. If he invades a region and a sizable city refuses to submit, there could be quite the pyramid of skulls.
Napoleon himself is certainly butterflied. Whether there will be an analogue to the French Revolutionary Wars is harder to say, but if there is one, it won't be too close an analogue.
In terms of Genoa, Aururian crops would certainly grow quite well there, though I'm not sure how long they will take to get transmitted. Europeans in OTL were strangely resistant to new crops by global standards - though I've never heard a convincing full explanation as to why - so I'm wary of depicting too rapid a spread. I did think it was reasonable to depict Sicily as an outlier (early adopter), and from there it will doubtless spread to their neighbours, including at some point Corsica and (mainland) Genoa.
The initial effects of the crops will be a substantial population boom and capacity to maintain larger urban (or at least non-agricultural) populations than in OTL. Where things go from there is harder to say. Genoa is for now (i.e. around 1710) still part of the Spanish orbit, and the city itself is more populous than it was at the same point in OTL, since while it lost population from the Aururian plagues, the disastrous plague outbreak of 1656 was butterflied away. Genoese financiers have still suffered from Spanish bankruptcies and the like. In a few years (1729-1736) the Advent Revolution in Sicily will break Spanish rule and create an independent kingdom, and that may create some encouragement in Genoa to work away from the Spanish orbit - although the other foreign powers may not be any more tolerable.
Certainly there's going to be some transmission of Aururian ideas, at least once the equivalent of the liberation of rules on foreign books is enacted (~1710-1730). With the Nuttana being the primary trade route, that will obviously mean that knowledge of Plirism will be transmitted. Other philosophical ideas may well be transmitted as well, and perhaps even some Five Rivers medical treatises, which is one of the fields where things could definitely be improved by consulting a source other than Europeans.
In terms of how the Japanese distinguish between the two, they will treat them as entirely separate. They see the Nuttana as one group of visitors from their own region, who neither look, sound nor act anything like Europeans.
Much depends on how and when Japan's self-imposed isolation ends, of course. One kind of Aururian influence - if it can be called that - is spreading already, in that jeeree consumption has become a high-status beverage within Japan. It's viewed as a more calming form of drink, used in appropriate circumstances. The Dutch also have access to jeeree, of course, but the Nuttana opened the market and the Dutch generally trade the jeeree elsewhere since they have other goods they value more from the limited Japanese trade.
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Talkng of books. Do any of he Aururian polities have the elements in place for mass publication (paper mills, or at least access to high volumes imports of paper, printing presses, etc) yet? Also. How many Raw Man books (or even not Raw Man books) have been translated into Aururian languages?
Yes. Printing started first in either the Nangu/Nuttana or Tjibarr (within a few years of each other) and both polities were enthusiastic adoptees of printing presses. The other Five Rivers kingdoms followed pretty quickly behind them. The Yadji/Durigal took a little longer, but have also taken it up eventually. Some other states have not; for instance, the Patjimunra have proven largely uninterested in printing themselves (though they use some imported paper for particular purposes, mostly record-keeping). The *Tasmanian states and Daluming were too disrupted and had too low a population base to set up much printing yet.
Paper manufacture is reasonably straightforward, for those who have chosen to do it. Most use discarded wattle-timber (especially from pruning) as the main source, together with some other discarded products such as rags from local linen production. The Nuttana use the abundant bagasse left over from sugar production.
The Five Rivers have the largest paper-making and printing base on the continent, partly because they have the highest remaining population, but also because literacy has long been widespread in their upper and middle classes. Durigal also has an expectation for literacy amongst the priests and warrior classes, together with some others, based on religious texts and their Ten Classics. Plirism is largely a written religion in most traditions (though a few remaining schools emphasise oral tradition), and so the Nuttana have also had a strong printing base for key religious texts and commercial purposes (record-keeping etc).
Some. Most obviously the bible, which has been translated into several Aururian languages, including into Junditmara in Durigal and Bungudjimay in Daluming, together with several other eastern coast languages. Probably also into Atjuntja and Gunnagal, though I haven't specified much about the latter.
For other books, the answer is that several have been, though whether a work is translated can be quite variable. Importing books has been popular in the Five Rivers for a while, and to a lesser degree amongst the Nuttana. In most cases, though, they rely on being able to read the books in the original languages, particularly if those are Dutch, English or French. If a particular work attracts more attention, it may well be translated. This is particularly true for Latin works such as scholarly treatises, which were still often written in Latin (until relatively recently). Aururians have been less inclined to learn Latin (though it's certainly not unknown) and more likely to learn European languages which they can actually speak to people in, so Latin works are more likely to be translated. Scientific works such as Newton's Principia have been translated, as have some medical and chemistry texts.
In terms of not-Raw Men books, a few Chinese and Indian works have been translated, including the Chinese Seven Military Classics and Tao Te Ching, and Indian Mahabharata and Ramayana. (The Chinese works into Gunnagal, and the latter into Nuttana.)
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How about Gunnagalia though? I am going to assume that the Hunter will subjugate in some manner or another those nations, breaking the present order and allowing for something new to emerge. There is a history of a united Gunnagalia, if an old one, and in cultural terms they are reasonably similar (or am I wrong?). IIRC the 'Dominion' is stated to last into the 19th century, which assuming it's not butterflied is in time for modern nationalism to take off - I could see a united Gunnagal state emerging out of the Hunter's realm at some point. There would certainly be an incentive to do so if other powers threatened them at the time. Given the geography of such a realm it could grow to be quite large, given that the large interior would be difficult to contest.
I think the Nuttana could be the first to develop widespread literacy amongst their general population, due to having a relatively small one and thus a small working population. You certainly see in times where the labour pool was small and expensive, and thus economically dear, a general increase in factors of human capital such as literacy, numeracy, more intensive labour skills, education etc. So aside from religious texts and tracts, I would expect a preponderance of every other type of reading, from literature, periodicals, educative books, and more. And certainly with a expensive labour / high wages economic situation as in the Nuttana, people would be able to spend on reading material, as well as education and such, so I would expect a burgeoning printing industry and literary sector / class to feed the demands of such a growing market.
Also, I would also expect the Nuttana to import a larger volume of books than the Five Rivers owing to their larger trading network, though of course the Five Rivers could very well be the largest market to which the Nuttana onsell books that they bring in, since they would have a smaller market than the Five Rivers based on population. So while the Nuttana would have the most volume of book imports, the Five Rivers would be bigger consumers of books which they buy from the Nuttana and the Europeans. Perhaps more from the Nuttana, even, because likely the Nuttana would be able to get their hands on all sorts of books that the Europeans wouldn't or couldn't bring to the Five Rivers, and definitely the Nuttana would be able to go to the Europeans in other Asian colonial ports and buy books from them to onsell to the Five Rivers. And presumably the Nuttana would have deeper relationships with and understanding of the Five Rivers market for foreign books, and could even find the Five Rivers to be a valuable trading partner to whom they can sell their own printed books.
Speaking of literature, what is the state of the industry and medium in Aururia currently? What types of genres and such are around?
Indeed, currently working on the maps and graphics on the Tjarrlinghi Yaluma chapters, I find them to be my current "favourite" and I find myself thinking most about them and how to flesh them out.
What would you say are the major power blocs within Aururia, and the general apportionment of geopolitical power and influence on the Aururian landscape?
Would the economic effects following the take-up of Aururian crops and agricultural techniques in France account for much of that? What will be the general differences between France ITTL and IOTL in that regard.
Also, can you give a general overview of the differences in the European geopolitical situation between TTL and OTL?
That's not necessarily true, in the more command economies within Europe such as France, you definitely see quick adoption and spread of new crops, such as can be seen with the example of the potato in OTL France, on a region-by-region basis following state initiatives and especially encouragement of aristocratic landowners (following research and experimentation). In Robert Allen's chapter on the British Agricultural Revolution, he mentions widespread experimentation in agricultural methods and with new crops by both landowners and tenants, and adoption that was likewise widespread both on a top-down command basis and a voluntary basis, and whether farms were enclosed or open also influenced the spread of the aforementioned things.
I wonder if some in the Nuttana can learn how to read, write, and to translate to Japanese as well as printing in Japanese (might be difficult due to the complexity of Kanji, though it's not impossible in the least, and they could also make use of Katakana and Hiragana). This would greatly augment any Plirite missionaries operating within Japan (like the Jesuits IOTL) if they have access to a supply of Japanese language religious Plirite tracts that they can spread around and evangelize with.
Speaking of which, I imagine that the Nuttana would be wanting to print such religious texts in all sorts of languages to support their global evangelizing mission, and there'd thus be an industry around producing such texts that're most suited for evangelizing to specific cultures and making use of appropriate rhetoric depending on the language.
What would the Plirite equivalent of the Kirishitans have on Japanese culture and politics? How would the community look like? If like the Jesuits, Plirite missionaries target the powerful (and I don't see why they won't) how will that affect their culture, like bushido and traditional Samurai practices like seppuku? The effects on their relations with their masters and their subordinates?
Jared has mentioned many times the drastically different developments of political philosophy in the Third World as compared to the West, so I doubt they will develop any ideology that's anything like the nationalism of Europe.
Also, I would also expect the Nuttana to import a larger volume of books than the Five Rivers owing to their larger trading network, though of course the Five Rivers could very well be the largest market to which the Nuttana onsell books that they bring in, since they would have a smaller market than the Five Rivers based on population. So while the Nuttana would have the most volume of book imports, the Five Rivers would be bigger consumers of books which they buy from the Nuttana and the Europeans. Perhaps more from the Nuttana, even, because likely the Nuttana would be able to get their hands on all sorts of books that the Europeans wouldn't or couldn't bring to the Five Rivers, and definitely the Nuttana would be able to go to the Europeans in other Asian colonial ports and buy books from them to onsell to the Five Rivers. And presumably the Nuttana would have deeper relationships with and understanding of the Five Rivers market for foreign books, and could even find the Five Rivers to be a valuable trading partner to whom they can sell their own printed books.
Speaking of literature, what is the state of the industry and medium in Aururia currently? What types of genres and such are around?
Indeed, currently working on the maps and graphics on the Tjarrlinghi Yaluma chapters, I find them to be my current "favourite" and I find myself thinking most about them and how to flesh them out.
What would you say are the major power blocs within Aururia, and the general apportionment of geopolitical power and influence on the Aururian landscape?
Would the economic effects following the take-up of Aururian crops and agricultural techniques in France account for much of that? What will be the general differences between France ITTL and IOTL in that regard.
Also, can you give a general overview of the differences in the European geopolitical situation between TTL and OTL?
That's not necessarily true, in the more command economies within Europe such as France, you definitely see quick adoption and spread of new crops, such as can be seen with the example of the potato in OTL France, on a region-by-region basis following state initiatives and especially encouragement of aristocratic landowners (following research and experimentation). In Robert Allen's chapter on the British Agricultural Revolution, he mentions widespread experimentation in agricultural methods and with new crops by both landowners and tenants, and adoption that was likewise widespread both on a top-down command basis and a voluntary basis, and whether farms were enclosed or open also influenced the spread of the aforementioned things.
I wonder if some in the Nuttana can learn how to read, write, and to translate to Japanese as well as printing in Japanese (might be difficult due to the complexity of Kanji, though it's not impossible in the least, and they could also make use of Katakana and Hiragana). This would greatly augment any Plirite missionaries operating within Japan (like the Jesuits IOTL) if they have access to a supply of Japanese language religious Plirite tracts that they can spread around and evangelize with.
Speaking of which, I imagine that the Nuttana would be wanting to print such religious texts in all sorts of languages to support their global evangelizing mission, and there'd thus be an industry around producing such texts that're most suited for evangelizing to specific cultures and making use of appropriate rhetoric depending on the language.
What would the Plirite equivalent of the Kirishitans have on Japanese culture and politics? How would the community look like? If like the Jesuits, Plirite missionaries target the powerful (and I don't see why they won't) how will that affect their culture, like bushido and traditional Samurai practices like seppuku? The effects on their relations with their masters and their subordinates?
Jared has mentioned many times the drastically different developments of political philosophy in the Third World as compared to the West, so I doubt they will develop any ideology that's anything like the nationalism of Europe.
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"Nationalism" in some form or another has emerged in literally every single country on Earth OTL, there's no reason to think it can't or won't here. I'm sure some of the more peculiarly European aspects that we saw in the 19th and 20th centuries OTL such as the very strong emphasis on race may not exist, but even at this point in the TL it's easy to see forms of nationalism such as the Patjimunra. "Modern Nationalism" really just refers to tribalism with some form of mass communication.