Lands of Red and Gold, Act II
- Thread starter Jared
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What do you base that claim on? And you're talking about something more like patriotism, rather than the nationalist ideologies which developed in Europe in the 18th-19th centuries. I simply don't buy that that sort of thing has emerged in every single country indigenously barring European influence, colonialism or the like, without your definition of "some form or another" being really vague and superfluous. And "modern nationalism" that you referred to in the context of your original post usually refers to the nationalism that originated in Europe, and "tribalism with some form of mass communication" is so vague and / or all-encompassing that it's meaningless. Nationalism refers to something far more specific than that, such as the idea of nations deriving power and legitimacy from ethnic / cultural communities.
There's already been a mention of alt-Nationalism ITTL, but it is based more on allowing cultural autonomy within countries, than the forming of new ones.
Jared, what're wattles like in TTL after centuries of selective breeding as a food crop as compared to edible wattles in OTL? Are there any special cultivars / varieties of the crop that don't exist in OTL?
I don't think it's true that France was resistant to new crops simply based on the widespread adoption of the potato in France with government support and initiative by landowners and farmers both. Adoption of newer and better crops became greater in response to crop failures and famines, so I'm not seeing much basis for the argument that the French were somehow resistant to new crops.
It's untrue that making better use of labour was not a consideration in Britain, in fact, both improvement of land and better allocation of labour were considered in the ultimate goal of increasing agricultural output per units of labour and land both (TFP; total factor productivity, taking into note labour, land, and capital as input factors). As I mentioned, Robert Allen's chapter on the British Agricultural Revolution mentions the revolution as an improvement in output per worker, so labour productivity was a great consideration in pursuing policies such as enclosure of farms or leaving them open.
I don't think it's true that France was resistant to new crops simply based on the widespread adoption of the potato in France with government support and initiative by landowners and farmers both. Adoption of newer and better crops became greater in response to crop failures and famines, so I'm not seeing much basis for the argument that the French were somehow resistant to new crops.
It's untrue that making better use of labour was not a consideration in Britain, in fact, both improvement of land and better allocation of labour were considered in the ultimate goal of increasing agricultural output per units of labour and land both (TFP; total factor productivity, taking into note labour, land, and capital as input factors). As I mentioned, Robert Allen's chapter on the British Agricultural Revolution mentions the revolution as an improvement in output per worker, so labour productivity was a great consideration in pursuing policies such as enclosure of farms or leaving them open.
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You're not using terms with any greater specificity, which is natural as the words "nationalism" and "patriotism", which are largely synonymous, are inherently very broad without some modifying word like "American nationalism" or the like. Every nation OTL and TTL will have experienced enormous European influence on their thinking, making that consideration moot, while "nations deriving power and legitimacy from ethnic / cultural communities" is a pretty basic concept seen in any context wherein a given community is threatened by outsiders.
This is where ATL terms get confusing. Do you mean Gunnagalia as in all of the Gunnagalic speaking peoples, or the heartland of the Five Rivers (currently three kingdoms)? The former is a linguistic region which by now spreads from Cape York to Wilson's Promontory, though with some non-Gunnagalic regions (most notably the Junditmara parts of Durigal), the latter is not strictly speaking Gunnagalia since it involves both the Gunnagal and the other main Five Rivers ethnicities (Wadang in Gutjanal, and Yigutjian).
Of course, the Hunter's stated ambition is to conquer all of the east coast:
Well, all except *Tasmania, of whose existence he is not really familiar.The Hunter said:
Even assuming for the sake of argument that the Hunter succeeds completely, that doesn't mean that such a united construct will last, any more than the Mongol conquests produced a united entity which lasted. There are too many regions with different interests. In particular, coastal areas such as Durigal, and some parts of the eastern seaboard which the Europeans will have a keen interest in supporting any breakaway groups / uprisings.
That said, some regions have a natural geographic unity, including the heartland of the Five Rivers, which is even linked by water to the Dominion's original homeland (*Darling Downs). Assuming that the Hunter succeeds in getting that far, it might be possible to hold it together even if there is contrary European influence. Although the centre of population in such an entity is clearly the Five Rivers - it would have more population than the *Darling Downs and all possible east coast dominions put together - so that may leave places like the *Darling Downs breaking away due to feeling neglected.
The question of nineteenth century nationalism is an interesting one which I'll explore below, but I would note in general terms that something like OTL nationalism would be a major threat to any surviving Dominion, since it would place nationalism as a divisive force against what is meant to be religious unity.
It depends what benchmark is used for widespread literacy. In number of people who are literate, both absolutely and in per capita terms, the Five Rivers are ahead of the Nuttana, having had a much longer tradition of literacy than them, going back to when communication was expensive enough to happen on clay, and having only expanded it since they got access to paper. The Nuttana have a significant slave population, most of whom would not be taught to read, and so are lower in per capita terms. On the other hand, the Nuttana may well be ahead in terms of printed works per head of population, because many of their people read a lot more things than the population of the Five Rivers do.
The Nuttana would certainly onsell plenty of books to the Five Rivers. That said, there are plenty of European traders who come directly to the Five Rivers, because they want to buy silver and dyes (amongst other things) at cheaper prices than any markup from the Nuttana would create. While the general European population wouldn't have much of a clue of the value that the Five Rivers place on imported books, the European trading companies have long figured it out, and would include plenty in their trade items which they try to exchange for silver and dyes.
Well, it's a little early for the Great Aururian Novel to emerge.
One of the main bodies of literature is "learned works", which is a very broad term but which involves all sorts of knowledge, both based on imported European (and other foreign) learning, and local efforts to adapt and build on this. So this would include scientific, philosophical, proto-economic, engineering and the like. Travelogues and other forms of knowledge about the wider world are also quite popular, being not quite considered learned works but informative. Poetry exists in various forms across most but not all Aururian cultures.
In the Five Rivers, there's also a separate category which can broadly be called "emerging journalism", though the actual term they use translates more literally as "chronicling". It involves descriptions of everyday events and what is happening within the local world (not foreign world). It emerged first in Tjibarr as a form of reporting in more detail about football, which existed pre-European contact but had limited readership because it's harder to write a lot on clay. The spread of papermaking and printing allowed more thorough descriptions of football results, discussion about the game, speculations about player transitions between factions, etc. It has spread to include other events of note which could be broadly classed as "news", though it's hardly investigative journalism.
Well, as of the "present" in the timeline - i.e. about 1710 - when talking about power within Aururia, it can neatly be divided into the Five Rivers, Durigal, and the rest. The Five Rivers and Durigal each had about one-quarter of the agricultural population of the continent, pre-European contact, and retain broadly similar proportions today. Durigal has lost its eastern territories for the time being, but that was always the least populous part of the state anyway. The Five Rivers of course were not usually politically united, and while they have had a stable alliance for a while, nothing lasts forever.
The Five Rivers are the wealthiest region in absolute terms - though the Nuttana would be similar or higher in wealth per capita - and this gives them some economic power over neighbouring regions. The Nuttana have a lot of soft power in terms of commercial and religious influence over parts of Aururia and elsewhere in Oceania, though their actual military power is minimal.
The Hunter and the rise of the Dominion may of course change things, particularly if it means uniting other parts of the continent. But even if the Hunter united everything that is within reach other than the Five Rivers - i.e. the eastern seaboard - then the total population of such an entity would still be less than that of the Five Rivers. Which means that if his Dominion conquers the Five Rivers, the centre of gravity of the new entity would return to the Five Rivers (except in the case of Mongol-level genocide).
Tiayal sits off to one edge of the continent, and even if they secured independence from the Dutch, would still be an outlying power, with sufficient population and resources to defend themselves but not a meaningful rival to Durigal or the Five Rivers for broader influence.
Any French Revolutionary Wars analogue would be rather different just because of so many piled-up butterflies and broader geopolitical changes in Europe when compared to OTL.
Biggest one is that the Austrian Habsburgs have been crumbling in power, so that while they are still elected as Holy Roman Emperors, the amount of territory they control has gradually reduced. The German-speaking realms are dominated by a cluster of mid-tier powers, with expanded Saxony and Bavaria being the biggest two centred in Germany. Sweden and Denmark also have territories within the OTL Holy Roman Empire, particularly Sweden, and the monarch of Sweden is still the recognised defender of the Protestants in the HRE. Sweden controls much of the Baltic coastline, and Denmark basically has the rest. The two have fought a few wars, with Sweden on the whole coming off best in those wars.
In TTL's version of Everybody Loves Poland, Sweden and Russia between them have taken much Polish territory, leaving what is rest weakened though certainly not destroyed. France is still the strongest single military power in Europe, though its borders are slightly smaller than OTL because some parts of the HRE which it acquired in OTL are still separate ITTL.
Britain has had its own civil war which the monarchists won, and was an absolute monarchy for a while (in name, at least), though this too probably will not last forever.
These things are relative. Globally speaking, Europe was slower to take up mass cultivation of suitable New World staple crops than other regions. Maize and cassava were taken up very quickly in Africa, potatoes in much of Asia and in New Zealand within a short period of being available, etc. Europe was on the whole much slower to do so, in comparison. Maize and potatoes did spread eventually in France, but not quickly in comparison to other parts of the world. Similarly, potatoes were introduced into the British Isles around 1585, and while they were used in a growing number of areas, took until near the mid-1700s before they were used over most of Britain.
I've wondered about that. There are certainly plenty of Nuttana who can translate spoken Japanese. The Japanese writing system is complex to Nuttana (or Western) eyes, but hardly unlearnable, so probably some could manage something. That said, Japan's restrictions do not permit the Nuttana to visit anywhere other than Okinawa (and maybe the other Ryukyus). They are expressly forbidden from visiting the main islands of Japan. If there are Plirite missionaries in Japan, they will be Japanese Plirite missionaries.
Kind of. Nuttana religious texts have been translated into a variety of languages, including among others Māori, some Papuan languages, Dutch and English. However, it's also worth pointing out that Plirites rely on oral transmission of their religion first, so don't try to convert people by providing religious texts. Their general idea is that religious tests exist to edify and educate converts already made, not to convert people in the first place. So translation efforts would generally follow successful conversions in a region.
I don't know whether Plirites can make much headway in Japan during this period. Direct missionary activity is basically impossible. There is only a very narrow window between first Nuttana contact with Okinawa (1643) and the closure of Japanese soil to foreigners (by a series of edicts issued in 1645-1652 ITTL). Plirite works can still be translated, but Nuttana are essentially banned from operating in the main islands. I suppose it may be possible for Okinawans and/or Japanese merchants visiting Okinawa to convert and then some of them spread Plirism to the main islands of Japan. I don't know how much that would be frowned upon or outright forbidden in ATL Japan. Plirism doesn't have the same sense of problems that Christianity does (i.e. giving an excuse for foreign powers to meddle), but it is still seen as foreign. I'd need to look into Japanese culture of this era to get a better idea of the prospects of success.
Most fan fiction is unpaid, so I don't know whether it counts as a market or not.Is there much of a market in Aururia for Hunter fanfic yet?
Sovereignty and nationalism are certainly quite different concepts ITTL, though I don't want to go too much into the details because that's getting ahead of the story. I can reiterate a couple of quotes which have been listed as being from TTL's Nationalist Manifesto:
“The state is where a man lives; the nation is what a man is.”
“Mankind dwelt on this world for a hundred millennia, and knew his identity in his heart. He roamed where he wished, and where he resided did not change who he was. For scarce two millennia, states have adopted borders, and claimed that where a man lives determines who he is. Yet a truth which has endured for a thousand centuries cannot be unmade by a fewscore decades of wishful thinking.”
There's no shortage of decorative varieties of wattles, grown for their flowers or the like. Some are grown for high wattle-gum production and so are not really seed producers.
In terms of food wattles, the main varieties are bred for more consistent seed production over time, and for other factors such as small, consistent size, larger seed pods (=easier to harvest). It's possible that some have been bred to produce edible seed pods, too; I don't know for sure whether that's feasible, but it might be.
As per above, when compared to timeframes elsewhere in the world, Europe in general and France in particular took longer to adopt new crops. Potatoes were one example, but not the only one (e.g. maize). Government support helped the potato, but even with that the adoption wasn't particularly fast. There's no reason to think that Aururian crops will attract the same level of government support, since they only really offer much advantage in a small part of France (the Mediterranean littoral).
The barrier to Aururian crops is not about labour productivity being about unimportant in Britain - certainly that was a factor in the British Agricultural Revolution - but that the advantages which Aururian crops offer in per worker productivity came at a trade-off in that they use up more land than the developing British agricultural system. Together with the fact that the other main advantage of Aururian crops - drought-tolerance - is irrelevant in Britain at best, given the rainfall, and indeed in many circumstances is a disadvantage, since it means that they are more sensitive to waterlogged soils and the like.
For instance, the four-crop rotation system of wheat, barley, turnips and clover is more productive per acre than a rotation of Aururian crops, and there's no way to slot Aururian crops into that. Given the culinary preferences of the British at the time (wheat and particularly white bread was seen as worth paying much more for), anyone farming wattles ends up with less flour per acre and which also has to be sold for cheaper (since it's black, oily flour). Murnong yield about as well as turnips, but cannot offer the same advantage of turnips in terms of fodder for cattle (that kills the murnong), and so there isn't the same advantage of manure adding extra fertiliser, either. There are some advantages of murnong in particularly poor soils, but that's a relatively limited niche in English agriculture, from what I understand.
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I did mean just the Five Rivers; it's easy to forget the meanings of the ATL terms when one does not use them for some years. I take it though that the inland Five Rivers kingdoms are of a distinct ethnicity to Tjibarr?
Yes, there are several ethnicities in the Five Rivers. The Gunnagal are the dominant ethnicity in Tjibarr, but not the only one even there. Many of the minority ethnicities in Tjibarr have been partially or completely assimilated with the development of a state central power, but some remain distinct in identity and (sometimes) language, particularly along the *SA coast and the highland regions of *central Victoria.
Similarly, the two indland kingdoms each of their own dominant ethnicity, called Wadang in the kingdom of Gutjanal and Yigutjian in the kingdom of Yigutji. For Yigutjian, it's actually the descendant of the same language and ethnicity (Biral) that was the dominant one in the days of the old Empire, but they have renamed themselves because the rulers who overthrew the Empire wanted to act as if they were distinct.
Jared, if you meant that Europeans were slower in adopting new crops in relation to the rest of the world rather than being slow / unwilling inherently, that makes more sense. Based on the things I mentioned and economic history, it does seem that Europe had plenty of institutions and mechanisms in place which determined who grew what, when, where, and how. Which would put a damper on any quick adoption of, say, Aururian crops, but I don't think it will stop such adoption by any means. If, for example, in the areas of France where Aururian crops stand to provide a benefit, I'm sure landowners and farmers will in time come to adopt crops and techniques that will improve output for both labour and land.
As for the Nuttana's missionary work in Japan, the fact that the Nuttana cannot dock elsewhere but Okinawa and have little freedom of movement in the rest of Japan would be a huge obstacle, certainly, but the option you've mentioned of native Japanese Plirite missionaries being used seems, to me, to be the game changer in the matter. I assume the Plirites of the Nuttana would have much fewer qualms in letting those of other ethnicity become missionaries of Plirism than the Portuguese Jesuits of the same period.
Christian missionaries in later centuries made great inroads in Qing China by training local Chinese and having them carry on the missionary work (a byproduct of which was Hong Xiuquan, but thats another story...), and you could argue that the Qing were even more closed-off than the Tokugawa. So in this case, you can certainly have the Nuttana find enough Japanese converts who'll be able to travel around Japan freely, unlike the Nuttana, and carry out an evangelical mission based around converting those in power (who might be more open to being converted by fellow Japanese, perhaps) and you don't need that many of them. There were never more than several hundreds of Jesuit missionaries in Japan IIRC.
The Plirites might prize true conversions based on the oral transmission of religious knowledge from missionary to convert, but I suspect that they'll change their tune when they realize the power of mass dissemination of religious material in reaching the masses. They could be happy with the preliminary conversion of a few Japanese through personal contact to turn them into missionaries, but for these Japanese missionaries to carry on their work amongst the Japanese masses would require different means, which is where all the pamphleteering would come in.
The problem is that Japanese authorities, that is, the samurai lords, will see any attempt to mass convert the peasants under their authority with much suspicion, and would quickly dispose of anyone involved in such sedition. These lords, however, weren't all that wary of missionaries themselves, and many of them were converted IOTL by Jesuits. When you convert a daimyo you're free to then convert the peasants under his authority, which would be the plan of attack for any evangelical project in Japan.
The printing industry back in the Nuttana lands would be rather useful in assisting these endeavours. Samurai lords would greatly appreciate Plirite reading material, especially if it's well written in a prestigious enough dialect (which is where input from Japanese Plirite missionaries would be very helpful). So properly translated scriptures would fit the bill well there. And of course, religious tracts meant to be widely disseminated would greatly help missionaries in converting the masses.
Getting these Japanese missionaries out of Japan to assist the propaganda operation back in Nuttana lands might present a problem, of course with the restrictions on Japanese leaving Japan. You could have the Nuttana smuggle them out and then back in as they can. I wonder if many other Plirite Japanese might want to escape to the Nuttana if they get into trouble back home. For some of these Japanese, for example Samurai, the Nuttana could make much use of their skills, so it might be an attractive alternative to facing punishment for being Plirite in Japan, or whatever else.
So in summation, convert the lords so that you can convert the people. Make use of locals to carry out the mission in your stead of you're not able.
That sounds mighty anarchistic for something labeled "nationalism".
E: Thinking more on Plirite samurais and liege lords, considering that they were well educated and were known to read a lot, more than just being converted they might want to continue discussing Plirite theology and do more in-depth study of the religion. In that end perhaps we could see some Plirite Japanese lords pay to have a Plirite priest / theologian settled in their court long term. Might be a way for certain Nuttana priests to go to Japan anyway if it happens to be at the request of someone powerful. Could be an interesting part of how Plirism could spread in Japan, so something to consider. Court Plirites could be a continuing source of Plirite influence in Japanese society.
As for the Nuttana's missionary work in Japan, the fact that the Nuttana cannot dock elsewhere but Okinawa and have little freedom of movement in the rest of Japan would be a huge obstacle, certainly, but the option you've mentioned of native Japanese Plirite missionaries being used seems, to me, to be the game changer in the matter. I assume the Plirites of the Nuttana would have much fewer qualms in letting those of other ethnicity become missionaries of Plirism than the Portuguese Jesuits of the same period.
Christian missionaries in later centuries made great inroads in Qing China by training local Chinese and having them carry on the missionary work (a byproduct of which was Hong Xiuquan, but thats another story...), and you could argue that the Qing were even more closed-off than the Tokugawa. So in this case, you can certainly have the Nuttana find enough Japanese converts who'll be able to travel around Japan freely, unlike the Nuttana, and carry out an evangelical mission based around converting those in power (who might be more open to being converted by fellow Japanese, perhaps) and you don't need that many of them. There were never more than several hundreds of Jesuit missionaries in Japan IIRC.
The Plirites might prize true conversions based on the oral transmission of religious knowledge from missionary to convert, but I suspect that they'll change their tune when they realize the power of mass dissemination of religious material in reaching the masses. They could be happy with the preliminary conversion of a few Japanese through personal contact to turn them into missionaries, but for these Japanese missionaries to carry on their work amongst the Japanese masses would require different means, which is where all the pamphleteering would come in.
The problem is that Japanese authorities, that is, the samurai lords, will see any attempt to mass convert the peasants under their authority with much suspicion, and would quickly dispose of anyone involved in such sedition. These lords, however, weren't all that wary of missionaries themselves, and many of them were converted IOTL by Jesuits. When you convert a daimyo you're free to then convert the peasants under his authority, which would be the plan of attack for any evangelical project in Japan.
The printing industry back in the Nuttana lands would be rather useful in assisting these endeavours. Samurai lords would greatly appreciate Plirite reading material, especially if it's well written in a prestigious enough dialect (which is where input from Japanese Plirite missionaries would be very helpful). So properly translated scriptures would fit the bill well there. And of course, religious tracts meant to be widely disseminated would greatly help missionaries in converting the masses.
Getting these Japanese missionaries out of Japan to assist the propaganda operation back in Nuttana lands might present a problem, of course with the restrictions on Japanese leaving Japan. You could have the Nuttana smuggle them out and then back in as they can. I wonder if many other Plirite Japanese might want to escape to the Nuttana if they get into trouble back home. For some of these Japanese, for example Samurai, the Nuttana could make much use of their skills, so it might be an attractive alternative to facing punishment for being Plirite in Japan, or whatever else.
So in summation, convert the lords so that you can convert the people. Make use of locals to carry out the mission in your stead of you're not able.
That sounds mighty anarchistic for something labeled "nationalism"
.E: Thinking more on Plirite samurais and liege lords, considering that they were well educated and were known to read a lot, more than just being converted they might want to continue discussing Plirite theology and do more in-depth study of the religion. In that end perhaps we could see some Plirite Japanese lords pay to have a Plirite priest / theologian settled in their court long term. Might be a way for certain Nuttana priests to go to Japan anyway if it happens to be at the request of someone powerful. Could be an interesting part of how Plirism could spread in Japan, so something to consider. Court Plirites could be a continuing source of Plirite influence in Japanese society.
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Ah ok, I had assumed that the Five Rivers were closer culturally and linguistically than that. Will just have to wait and read what happens then. I am kinda of hoping that the Hunter succeeds in his goal, at least while he's living, as it would be fun to see how the Europeans (possibly fail to) deal with a large Aururian power.
If the Qing still get screwed like an OTL, a Plirite version of Hong Xiuquan would make quite the interesting story.
Just finished rereading this whole timeline, and I have to say, once again, that this timeline is fantastic. Im interested in the future of settlement in Aururia, and the visions of its future makes me think that the English population in Durigal is more like Australia OTL than it is India. Am I wrong in this? Also, how is Homosexuality viewed in the native cultures?
I'm pretty sure the qing never formed in this timeline. The manchu invasion failed.
Oh, certainly I would expect Aururian crops to penetrate eventually. I'm just not expecting a fast process. So when most Aururian crops did not reach parts of Europe until 1640 at the earliest (with a couple of exceptions), it will take a while for them to spread over most of the continent, particularly as staple crops. There are exceptions, such as those which offer quick cash crop status, but those are rare.
The Nuttana, and Plirites in general, see no barrier to ethnicity directly as being a barrier to religious work. (They have inherited a prejudice against hunter-gatherers, thanks to their Kiyungu forebears, but that's not directly an ethnic matter). What does matter more is that they see proper religion as being about proper behaviour, and that's something which must be learned over time. They think that too much truth too fast can overwhelm or provoke rejection in someone who was still learning. For instance, in the description of when Nameless converted the first Maori ariki iwi (king), he did it by a process of observing, learning, and dispensing advice, and gradually building up a sense of trust. He shied away from translating a major Plirite text (Oora Gulalu, the Endless Road), because it contained too much truth for the ariki iwi to grasp at once. This is part of why they tend not to translate their religious texts too early. (Of course, with a few exceptions, even Christianity tends not to present the Bible as the starting point for potential conversion, though they may print extracts. They may also use other forms of written communication.)
Where the Plirites would be worried is that poor understanding may make a poor convert disharmonious, since they don't know proper behaviour. They might try something like a series of pamphlets / progressive lessons or the like, but I suspect that they would still want the personal touch somewhere, even if it is by a chain of converts. Plirites would be horrified at the equivalent of, say, some modern Christian denominations which engage in mass baptisms in areas which are mostly non-Christian. They would see that as only making things worse.
The idea of Plirite missionaries in Japan does intrigue me, but this falls under the heading of would need to do some more detailed research to work out if it is plausible. In particular, what would be the likely government reaction to it, both local daimyo but more generally the central government. Also, whether there would be a coordinated pushback from Japanese Buddhists and/or Shinto clergy.
The OTL concept of nationalism is intertwined with the concept of a nation-state, where a state derives its authority from the nation it is part of. There's no need for that always to be the case. Sovereignty can be viewed as deriving from other sources, without dispensing with the concepts of government or state.That sounds mighty anarchistic for something labeled "nationalism"
Interesting idea, though as per above, the question remains of whether the official restrictions on foreigners entering Japan would be enforced here. Plirism doesn't have the same issue of being viewed as linked to inviting foreign conquest, but that doesn't mean that there will be an official welcome either.
The Five Rivers are close culturally in many respects, just not so close linguistically. For instance, their religion is mostly on a continuum of belief, including both traditional religion and Plirite schools, albeit that Yigutji has a different state religion which the others lack. Physicians move freely between all three kingdoms without any problems, and there is a great deal of commercial and other contact. It's a bit like how, say, England, Scotland and Ireland had a lot of cultural contact pre-unification, though still with distinct identities.
As to seeing the Europeans dealing with a large Aururian power, that may be the case regardless of whether the Hunter succeeds or fails.
It's certainly true that the Qing per se are gone. That doesn't mean that as *China develops, that there won't eventually be someone who calls himself the Good Brother (i.e. brother to the Good Man).
Well, the interactions of Clements and Ashkettle (and a few other future glimpses) show that there has been some significant English cultural influence in Durigal. The two are talking in English - their conversations haven't been "translated" - and there are a few other signs of influence as well. That said, the question of how many Europeans have settled in Aururia is not yet clearly shown. Indeed, the ancestry of Ashkettle (who is from Durigal) has not even been shown directly.
What's not clear is whether what's been shown is a "pocket" of English influence. The interactions are taking place in *Geelong, which is the centre of English contact with Durigal, and is likely to have become an English-influenced city even if the rest of the country is not so English-influenced or English-speaking. There may be a bit more insight into this as the rest of the Clements framing device unfolds, but it won't be completely answered until Act III.
For the most part, they don't even have a concept of homosexuality as a separate identity. That is, like a variety of cultures around the world, they view it more as a specific act rather than dividing people into gay or straight orientation. Gay people would be expected to still perform the usual social obligations of marriage (i.e. to have children and carry on the family line), but what they did outside of marriage is usually less of a concern.
There are a couple of societies which are exceptions to this general rule. The Kiyungu, as has been described in the posts on them, have a system of same-sex mentors (Elder Brothers/Sisters) which often includes an older mentor-younger lover component, though this is far from universal within their society. The Yadji tend to be rather disdainful of homosexuality, though this is more of a social custom than any religious requirement. The Yadji also consider male homosexuality more of a thing to be spurned than female homosexuality, though they don't encourage the latter either.
On another note, to tide things over until the Hunter sequence is finalised, there will soon be an interlude post about the longer-term consequences of one introduced species in Aururia.
That doesn't discount a mass evangelical mission to Japan (or any other place) simply that these "converts" won't be seen as full Plirites as the Christians would. Consider them more as "set upon the right path" perhaps. And I don't see why Nuttana Plirites would shy away from evangelizing in Japan because of such a trivial distinction. They are still setting a larger and larger part of the world onto the path of harmony than they ever have before. They'll probably emphasize to Plirite daimyo the importance of behaving harmoniously and encouraging said behaviour in the people, and where such behaviour norms don't conflict with the ones already existing for Japanese aristocrats and commoners, I'm sure they'll be followed without raising the ire of the shogunate. And of course, printed material describing proper behaviour and such would help a lot in this regard.
Trivial distinctions / disagreements like that can easily be taken care of by massaging the definition of what a full Plirite is. Also, you can easily keep people hooked if they believe there is a lot more left to learn. Which would be important to keep richer and more powerful Japanese in the influence of Plirite priests / missionaries.
Those sticklers who require a "personal touch" would, I expect, come short in defining what that entails without significant disagreements amongst themselves. I'm certain someone can persuasively argue for the relaxations of expectations regarding behavior from Japanese Plirites due to the large cultural gulf between Aururians and them. And after all, how many aspects of prescribed Plirite behaviour came from Plirism rather than from pre-existing Aururian cultural norms?
I am sure that the Nuttana school of Plirism would come farther than many others in realizing that "harmonious behaviour" would differ between cultures (as much as between different schools of thought, no doubt). And indeed, I doubt even many Aururian Plirites conform exactly to religious strictures on behaviour so it would be hypocritical to demand the Japanese behave exactly like Aururian Plirites do.
I think it's likely a new understanding will emerge among the more global Plirite schools, like the Nuttana orthodoxy, that harmonious behaviour is more a continuum of behaviours that all have one ultimate effect, either raising or hurting harmony, rather than a strict checklist of dos and don'ts.
The wiki article on kirishitans has some good info, a few frustrating [citation needed]'s, but that's standard. The government reaction seems easier to avoid / would be more amenable. The Jesuits weren't completely prevented from moving around or even removed entirely at first. There might be a reaction from Buddhists and Shinto, but the government would do its best to prevent any outright conflict between religious groups or sectarian conflict, I feel. Though it'd be important to be wary of daimyo who're more staunchly Buddhist or even Christian who might take direct action against anyone else. If Plirite daimyo and peasants are instructed to keep amongst themselves and not shake things up too much, I think they'll get along fine at least with the authorities.
And how would they make sure that the state or another statist entity doesn't eventually go back to deriving legitimacy and sovereignty from the identity of its citizens, thus in this way placing restrictions on the freedom of its citizens to identify and organize? And I take it that these nationalists are concerned with matters of identity politics and not economic organization?
Obviously no Plirite can realistically expect an official welcome, but I can see the Plirites having a much easier time of it than the Jesuits IOTL, who weren't all removed at once anyway.
I wonder if any Aururians will support a Plirite Hong Xiuquan. Many Chinese Christians (Catholic and Protestant) and foreign Christian missionaries did at first, but found his version of Christianity to be too aberrant to their own, considering that it was ultraconservative (complete social segregation between men and women, even married couples) and that Hong ended up trying to rewrite the Bible to fit his ultraconservative ideals. Also, of course, the fact that he considered himself to be Jesus's younger brother; literally God's Chinese son. Though of course since there isn't any Manchu Qing dynasty to fight against, the OTL Hong Xiuquan won't exist in the same way. I wonder what pretext would there be for mass revolt in the Chinese dynasties that's not anti-Manchu sentiments.
It's not a question of being full Plirite or of trivialities of mannerisms, it's a view that someone who is only half-taught can make more serious errors than someone who lives on in ignorance. They think that this can do more damage than someone who is completely ignorant, because they may get things wrong and (worse) encourage others to act in the wrong way, creating more disharmony than if people just kept doing what they were doing. Thus the concern is that there may be a group who are misguided and who may then focus on those misconceptions and refuse to learn more of what is proper, especially if they shy off partway through.
To put it another way, they believe that understanding takes time to acquire, and the best way to achieve that is personal contact over a period of time. Whether that takes one missionary or several doesn't change the expectation that a proper conversion takes time. They may well adopt specialised printed materials as part of that process, but I suspect that they will still want the personal touch too.
I may not have been clear before. They aren't speaking about a specific checklist of behaviours, but of having enough understanding of how to behave properly in all circumstances. They would agree that
For me, this falls under the heading of "more research required". Plirism arrives more or less right at the point when Japan is about to close itself off completely, and when foreign influence was certainly regarded with suspicion. The Tokugawa were also promoting their own new state religion/ideology (Neo-Confucianism), and had also asserted state control over Shinto and Buddhism. (I do have some vague memory of reading that Buddhist monasteries were part of the pushback against Christianity, but lack decent sources to check that memory.)
To clarify, I don't think that Japan is going to automatically reject Plirite influence during this period, but I'd like to look more into more reliable sources than Wikipedia before making a definitive decision on it.
The whole idea of states, sovereignty, legitimacy and so forth go down rather a different path to how things ended up in OTL. While obviously there were earlier antecedents of nationalism, in OTL the concept of nationalism began to spread widely with the French Revolutionary Wars and the reactions to them. Suffice it to say that things happen quite differently here. The idea of the state still exists, of course, but there are different underlying philosophies for where it derives its authority from.
ATL nationalism is indeed more concerned about identity than economic organisation, but it's also concerned with other concepts too, such as sovereignty and social organisation. It's hard to explain further without giving too much away, but suffice it to say that the roots of *nationalism emerged on multiple continents and were in part a reaction to the challenges to absolutism which emerged in Europe.
I'd still think that dissatisfaction with an established dynasty would still be suitable motivation to launch a mass revolt. It happened against previous dynasties too. So while the details may differ for motivation, mass revolt is always a possibility, particularly since if the revolt is initially successful, it tends to attract supporters.
But this can conceivably be taken care of through how missionaries teach, by emphasizing the danger of assuming that one knows how best to behave with only half the knowledge. It might even be more agreeable to people to know that they can behave as they always have for the moment, until at whatever point they are judged to have all the knowledge in the ways of harmony. So if they shy off halfway through, they're likely to go back to their old ways instead of behaving according to misconceptions of Plirism.
I'm not saying look at just Wikipedia, but see the history of Christianity persecution in Japan. The pushback against Christians started essentially because of fear and suspicion of the Catholic European colonial powers, especially Spain (and also Portugal), which had conquered and converted the Philippines. At first the spread of Catholicism was welcomed because it would've acted as a counterbalance to the power of the Buddhists, who were rather powerful. But then you had persecution and the many martyrs. And then after violent revolts, most famous being the Shimabara Rebellion, Christianity was officially banned and persecuted and Christians went underground.
Plirites can avoid all of the persecution that the Christians received by virtue of not being represented by a powerful outside colonial power. And without the persecution Plirites would never have to rebel against the state at any point. The history of Plirism in Japan would conceivably be very different from that of Christianity.
Huh, with the mentions of ATL nationalism it sounds in fact like an ideology developed in reaction / opposition to what in OTL is nationalism, or at least statist nationalism. So what is the status quo in ATL if not that?
In OTL the European colonial powers assisted the Qing in fighting against the Taiping Rebellion, mostly because they wanted the Qing regime to persist since it suited said powers (the Qing were easy to deal with when it came to their colonial ambitions in China). What would the Europeans want to do ITTL in regards to such a rebellion?
Considering that the Aururians have managed to tame the Emu unlike the Australians IOTL, nonexistent.
