Keynes' Cruisers Volume 2

[fester]

I am not sure if it is already mentioned, but what is the status of the Italian 8th Army that in OTL was destroyed in the Eastern Front ?

8th Army was hit hard in the Planetary Offensives but not destroyed.

TTL it had an extra division in 1942 https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/keynes-cruisers.388788/page-420#post-17052141
It also had some integrated armour units of the Centauro division.

During Little Saturn, it was still holding the Don River line but on a slightly smaller front so the firepower density was higher and it had mobile and somewhat capable reserves to stop a penetration from becoming a rout.

By May 1943, it is still part of the southern Axis army group with effectively 7 divisions (including a weak armoured division) under command. At this time, has four divisions including the armoured division holding a quiet part of the front near Kursk and three infantry divisions on anti-partisan duties.

 

[RyderWest]

So Italy is still in the war?

 

[fester]

So Italy is still in the war?

Yes; they aren't in good shape as they lost their North African possessions faster (but at lower total net costs), they lost their Aegean possessions much faster, and their fleet is spends most of the day underwater (intentional and unintentional) at this point. But compared to OTL, the defenses in Southern Italy are probably in better shape for ground forces and equal shape for air forces right now and the 8th Army in Russia is merely mauled instead of destroyed during the Winter 1942-1943 fighting.

 

[mudhead]

he now had priority on maintenance and choice of patrol boxes.

The Kammhuber Line was quite effective up to this point, though this point is about to come to an end.

Seven thousand German soldiers of the 17th Panzer Division along with the fifteen percent of their authorized tanks and artillery that needed depot or factory level maintenance were moving to the strategic reserve. The veterans would be given a month to see their homes or to get blind drunk before they were reconcentrated to rebuild the division with new recruits and factory fresh equipment. If all went well, the division would head back to the Eastern Front in six months, rested and far more powerful then compared to now.

17 Panzer had some noteable commanders: von Thoma, von Arnim, and von Senger und Etterlin.

ITTL we may seem a different disposition for the Pz V, which IOTL made a somewhat dismal debut during CITADEL.

 

[RyderWest]

Yes; they aren't in good shape as they lost their North African possessions faster (but at lower total net costs), they lost their Aegean possessions much faster, and their fleet is spends most of the day underwater (intentional and unintentional) at this point. But compared to OTL, the defenses in Southern Italy are probably in better shape for ground forces and equal shape for air forces right now and the 8th Army in Russia is merely mauled instead of destroyed during the Winter 1942-1943 fighting.

I imagine the Italians holding on longer, and the better defences in Southern Italy would at least give caution to an invasion of Italy by the Allies this time around. And an additional knockon effect is that the Sicilian invasion actually derailed Citadel IOTL.

ITTL we may seem a different disposition for the Pz V, which IOTL made a somewhat dismal debut during CITADEL.

Wasn't it rushed into service?

 

[fester]

Crete, May 5, 1943

P-38s circled the airfield. The fighter group had been in support (not escort as that would be an absurd violation of doctrine, but support) of three heavy bomber groups. The bombers had targeted the arsenal at Kazanlak in Bulgaria. The Bulgarian air force had attempted to oppose this strike. Twenty three Me-109s of a type that were obsolete in 1941 had risen from a pair of airfields and had attempted to slash into the bomber boxes. One squadron of the twin boomed fighters led by Major Evan King jumped nine of the single engine fighters that were five thousand feet below them and thirty miles from the bombers. A single pass led to only four Bulgarians surviving. Those survivors were chased for eighty miles by the supporting Lightning squadron. All the pilots made it back to base, three of the aircraft had branches and leaves breaking up the smooth airflow. The other group of Bulgarian fighters made a single head on pass, their heavy cannons claimed a trio of Fortresses. The fire from the defensive box drove the fighters away. Many of them had left the battlefield trailing smoke.

Twenty miles to the west of the fighter field, the RAF and RHAF medium bomber squadrons were warming up. Another strike was planned for just after nightfall. This time, the rail marshaling yards in Athens would be the target. Six Mosquitoes configured as intruders would give the five squadrons cover against any German night fighters based in Southern Greece.

 

[diestormlie]

The fighter group had been in support (not escort as that would be an absurd violation of doctrine, but support) of three heavy bomber groups.

Ahh, doctrine.

 

[mudhead]

Wasn't it rushed into service?

Nothing worked properly, and it had a tendency to burst into flames when the engine started. They never got the final drive fixed.

 

[fester]

Nothing worked properly, and it had a tendency to burst into flames when the engine started. They never got the final drive fixed.

So minor details then....

 

[mudhead]

Nothing worked properly, and it had a tendency to burst into flames when the engine started. They never got the final drive fixed.

So minor details then....

I dug up an old post about a programme on the Panther.

A few years ago the series Tank Overhaul had an episode on restoring a Panther. Usual stuff - some good technical details, separated by much too much inaccurate guff on kill ratios, and the "mystery" of how a particular vehicle was lost (clue: 45 tons, bottom of a river, thin ice).

Full programme (wrongly titled) is here: to avoid wasting time, because I've done that for you, go to:

• 25 mins: information on the torsion bar suspension, the 20" suspension travel giving stability and a smooth ride.
• 26 mins 30 secs: Maybach engine - engine block too light; connecting rod & gasket failures; stack fires.
• 32 mins 10 secs: the neutral steer capability - first AFV to have an effective system of this type?
• 33 mins 30 secs: final drive and transmission: straight spur gears, teeth overstressed; comparison with M4 double herringbone system; problem of utilising a system designed for a 32-35 ton vehicle on something that turned out 45 tons.
• 35 mins 13 secs: transmission final drive failures/damage, and the difficulty of repairing them.

I've also read something - can't remember where - about the problems with the traversing mechanism - apparently too feeble to defy gravity and work on a slope.

Also, there were unresolved issues with the balance of the turret. By the time they got the reliabilty problems (mainly) resolved, they'd run out of the materials to make effective armour plate.

Tank Encyclopedia has a good section on the beast.

 

[Killer in]

Nothing worked properly, and it had a tendency to burst into flames when the engine started. They never got the final drive fixed.

Fairly sure at Kursk 13 panthers destroyed themselves getting off the rail cars. Since as mentioned previously the early Panthers had an alarming tendancy to burst into flames. Caused by if I'm remembering right the fact that due to the weight they figured it'd be easier for Panthers to ford relatively deep rivers so the engine compartment was made mostly water tight which meant fuel fumes couldn't escape effectively leading to the fires.

 

[paaskynen]

Palawan, April 28, 1943

The next ten minutes was the longest lifetime for the survivors as two battleships fired their main batteries on a metronome. Arizona on the minute and Pennsylvania on the half minute. Trees that had reached four stories into the sky before the bombardment were now scattered toothpicks, the road was a battered obstacle course impassible to the ox drawn carts that hauled the heavy weapons. Even if the carts could be hauled forward, most of the oxen were dead, a few were bellowing with pain until their drivers could give them a mercy shot. And just as the bombardment lifted, the guerrilla band started sniping at any Japanese soldier who showed either courage, stupidity or bravery.

Just, wow

 

[docfl]

Steel rain

 

[fester]

Bataan, May 6, 1943

General Wainwright gripped the rail of the cruiser’s gangway. USS Raleigh had unloaded, her engines were making steam, and her captain was ready to leave in an hour. She had left half a dozen additional powered barges and landing craft. Her gunners had fired a quarter of her magazine at a pair of multi-squadron air raids. They had unloaded half of the remaining shells that morning. The raiders managed to sink USS Waters, thankfully after she had landed her cargo of artillery ammunition and medical supplies. One hundred and twenty tons of food went to the bottom of the bay. Divers and fishermen would soon enter the water to recover what they could.

The general had been aboard for an all-night planning session as well as a chance for a hot meal of fresh food and a scalding hot shower. The luxury was incredible. His command would no longer be losing men to disease and evacuation. Instead, they would hold steady in numbers and critical specialists, including four dozen men who had already started surveying several large, reasonable flat and firm areas on the western edge of the peninsula, would be run into the siege camp.

Relief would not be tonight. It would not be this week nor next. It would not be in June, but relief was coming. The defenders of Bataan just needed to be supplied and they could hold long enough to serve as an anvil upon which the Japanese could be hammered flat against.

As his he came ashore and collected his balance once again, half a dozen staff officers who were intimately familiar with the corps and the corpus of men defending the peninsula waited, snapped a salute and then hurried aboard. They carried little besides papers and plans as their personal luggage could be fit into third of a duffel bag. The Navy would dress the Army from surplus stores.

Relief was in sight.

 

[jlckansas]

And now the big job starts, convincing those who are not there, have not fought there, have not been there, that they are totally and unequivocally wrong in their planning. This is the hardest part of the campaign.

 

[Alanith]

I'd be interested to see what the Japanese calculus on the war's progress is.

 

[fester]

Gibraltar, May 7, 1943


The Rock was an American bay today. USS Independence and USS Princeton had arrived just after lunchtime. They were the most powerful American ships in the Rock’s lee, but they were joined by half a dozen cruisers, two dozen destroyers, destroyer escorts and gunboats, fifty subchasers and patrol craft that were good mainly at keeping submariners scared and submerged and over one hundred merchant ships and assault vessels.

The Royal Navy had left two days ago. Two old battleships, a pair of escort carriers, and almost a gross of lesser ships had cleared the anchorages. The bars had a chance to clean up and restock before the liberty boats with young sailors with cash and minimal supervision descended along the waterfront. Something big was almost ready to happen but no one quite knew where and no one quite knew when, so those who could relax within the moment did so.

 

[fester]

I'd be interested to see what the Japanese calculus on the war's progress is.

This is probably the closest that I will give:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...uisers-volume-2.451883/page-157#post-18786563

 

[fester]

Wake Atoll, May 7, 1943

USS Wahoo entered the narrow, swept lagoon channel. At her mast was a broom. Painted on her sail were her claims from her fifth war patrol. Five merchant ships and a training cruiser had been sunk. Her skipper was ecstatic, for the first time in the war, he was returning without any torpedoes, and, more importantly, for the first time, they worked. All twenty four torpedoes had left the tubes without a problem. Twenty two had run hot, straight and normal. Thirteen of them had hit a target, and twelve of them actually exploded. The fixes from both Newport and the tenders had finally given him a working weapon.

An hour later, the submarine was tied up next to the tender. She would be fourth in line for repairs behind her sisters that were soon to depart for their own patrols, but her crew was second in line for ice cream, hot showers and steak dinners behind only USS Silversides who had returned from a bust of a patrol near Truk an hour earlier than Wahoo.

 

[mudhead]

Wake Atoll, May 7, 1943

USS Wahoo entered the narrow, swept lagoon channel. At her mast was a broom. Painted on her sail were her claims from her fifth war patrol. Five merchant ships and a training cruiser had been sunk. Her skipper was ecstatic, for the first time in the war, he was returning without any torpedoes, and, more importantly, for the first time, they worked. All twenty four torpedoes had left the tubes without a problem. Twenty two had run hot, straight and normal. Thirteen of them had hit a target, and twelve of them actually exploded. The fixes from both Newport and the tenders had finally given him a working weapon.

IOTL Morton had to start his patrols from somewhat further away than Wake. Seems to have been an inspiring leader, despite suffering from prostrate problems - he would be hospitalised on returns from missions.

He initiated a policy of having the XO man the periscope during attacks, as, according to his Third Officer George Grider it

left the skipper in a better position to interpret all factors involved, do a better conning job, and make decisions more dispassionately. There is no doubt it is an excellent theory, and it worked beautifully for him, but few captains other than Mush ever had such serene faith in a subordinate that they could resist grabbing the scope in moments of crisis.

Clay Blair Jr: Silent Victory, Bantam ed pb 1985, p381-2

Of course, it helps if your XO is Dick O'Kane.

On the USN's torpedoes: Wiki is comprehensive on the Mark 14.