Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Cate13, Nov 4, 2018.

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  1. Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    Eh, no worries, it's hard to keep track of everyone. And Henry definitely wants to be her knight in shining armor, the question is does he get to?
     
  2. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

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    Nov 16, 2018
    On instinct, not if KOA is involved!
     
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  3. Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    And we can't forget Catherine of Aragon's many relatives ;)
     
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  4. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

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    Nov 16, 2018
    Indeed not.
     
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  5. The Merovingian To whom the Capets aspire.

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    Mar 11, 2017
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    Austrasia today, Burgundy tomorrow.
    Oops, thought Kathryn was Arthurs Daughter otl Henry viis niece, and since this is called Henry father of kings, i figured he was gonna marry the niece, shore up her claim, and father another future king...
     
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  6. Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    No worries, there are a lot of Tudors in this timeline. Makes them harder to keep track of.
     
  7. J. L. Stanwyck Member

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    Feb 23, 2018
    Will the Tudors engage in Habsburg-like uncle-niece incest ? I hope they won’t, or they will end up with a Carlos II of England ;-)

    Congratulations for this timeline, I really enjoy it ! I’m really looking forward to see what happens next.
     
  8. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    Feb 12, 2017
    I hope that if Henry lays a finger on Katheryn that Catherine chops if off!
     
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  9. AngelQueen Lady-in-Waiting

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    Ohio, USA
    Don't see that happening, since Katheryn is Henry's own grandchild. ;) Henry's more the likely coming to fight to uphold his granddaughter's claims as the rightful Queen of England against the "foreign meddler" Queen Catherine. Gotta remember this isn't the lecher Henry VIII of the OTL. By this point, Prince Henry is a far, far different man than his counterpart.

    What's more, Catherine herself has shown herself to despise Katheryn, primarily for her religious beliefs. So rather, you might hope that Henry will chop off Catherine's finger if she lays it on Katheryn.


     
  10. Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    I'm glad you enjoy it :) And I promise, no Carlos II.
     
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  11. Threadmarks: Section Twenty-One - 1540

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    “Maria Tudor, Queen of the Romans, was named the new Queen of England by her brother’s will. The reliability of the will has been long been contested. To this day, historians can’t agree on whether John of Wales truly designated Maria Tudor as his heir or whether Catherine of Aragon forged the will to keep the throne out of the hands of Kathryn Tudor.

    Whether the will was real or not it was initially accepted, due to John of Wales support in the South of England and the popularity Catherine of Aragon had gained as Queen of England. Additionally, Maria Tudor was seven years older than the young Kathryn Tudor and married.”
    Everett Jacobs, “Catherine and Kathryn”​


    “Queen Catherine’s declaration that her daughter, not her granddaughter, would be the next Queen of England was less accepted as established. People were simply used to listening to Queen Catherine. But, due to a variety of circumstances outside Queen Catherine’s control, momentum was lost, and England devolved into a civil war, those supporting Kathryn Tudor verses those supporting Maria Tudor.

    Among the circumstances that shook Queen Catherine’s control on England was Kathryn Tudor’s escape. Forces had been sent to intercept the Kathryn before she reached the shore. Unfortunately for Queen Catherine, Kathryn Tudor hadn’t headed for the shore and Navarre, but North for Scotland.

    The other contributing factor to Queen Catherine losing control of England, was Maria Tudor inability to quickly arrive in England. Standing between the Holy Roman Empire and England was France and Navarre. Navarre obviously was against Maria Tudor as Queen of England; Kathryn Tudor was King Henri III’s niece. France was the surprise. King Francis had watched as religion was used as an excuse for the rights of a monarch to be subverted in Navarre, and now he saw it happening again. He saw supporting Kathryn Tudor as a way to curb the power of the pope over monarchs in their own country.”
    Walter Owens, “The Tragedy of Catherine of Aragon” ​
     
  12. Threadmarks: Section Twenty-Two - Late 1530s

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    “Sybylle Von der Mark, wife of Prince Henry Tudor, would die in fifteen thirty-nine giving birth to John Tudor the new Duke of Julich-Cleves-Berg. John Tudor inherited the Dukedom from his elder brother Arthur Tudor who had died some three months previously. Arthur Tudor had inherited the Dukedom from his uncle William. Prince Henry would retire from court in deep mourning. Like with the death of Anne Boleyn, it would take a war to shake Prince Henry from his grief.

    John Tudor, Duke of Julich-Cleves-Berg, would be escorted to his new lands by his elder half-brother Charles Tudor, Duke of Calais.”
    Matheo Henrikson, “The 1500’s Was A Crazy Century, and It Was Mostly the Tudors’ Fault”​


    “Cardinal Henry Aviz would travel to Rome late in the fifteen thirties to speak with Pope Marcellus II about the possibility of a Portuguese Inquisition. While the Portuguese Inquisition would not be created at this time, Cardinal Henry’s journey would not be in vain. While in Rome, he would find his nephew, John Emmanuel, a bride, Caterina de Medici.”
    Melina Navos, “Caterina, Mother of Iberia” ​


    “Maria Tudor ended the fifteen thirties a happy wife and mother. She had given her husband a son and three daughters, showing she didn’t share her mother’s infertility or her elder sister’s health. She was Queen of the Romans, and she must have been looking forward to the day she would be addressed as Empress. It would be shortly after the birth of her third daughter Catherine, that Maria Tudor received word of the death of her father and brother and that her mother had declared her, Maria Tudor, Queen of England.”

    King James V of Scotland ended the fifteen thirties as he always was, exasperated with and overshadowed by Alexander Stewart. The twenty-six-year-old prince had once again outshined his elder brother by…”
    Harper Wayne, “Keeping Up with The Tudors, Your Guide to Who’s Who” ​
     
  13. Threadmarks: Section Twenty-Three - 1540

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    “Kathryn Tudor’s party, composed of the Boleyns, the Cromwells, several Howards, and a few of her ladies would reach Scotland where they were granted sanctuary but not assistance, by King James. Kathryn Tudor had hoped that her cousin would support her claim to the throne, but King James was torn between a concern about the irregularity in inheritance and his own religious principles.

    But, the young Queen Claimant found an ally in Prince Alexander.”
    Xander Tallmar, “Alexander Stewart, Was it All True?”​


    “Interviewer: And what about the decision to end the movie before Prince Alexander and Queen Kathryn meet?

    Director: We struggled with that choice. But it was felt that including Kathryn Tudor would change the focus of the movie. Instead of a story of two brothers, it would be the tale of a Queen and her husband.

    Interviewer: Could there be a sequel that tells that story?

    Director: It’s been considered. Ewan (McGregor) has let us know he would love to do a sequel to Prince Alexander.”
    Interview with the Director of Prince Alexander Stewart (1993)​


    “Lucy Lawless: Here we are at the castle where Kathryn Tudor would live while in Scotland. It was here that she be Prince Alexander and the two fell in love. This is Vanessa Corey, author of Glorianna.

    Vanessa Corey: I wouldn’t say the two fell in love, at least not right away. More than anything I think the two saw in each other someone with the same drive and, as my grandmother would say get-up-and-go.

    Vanessa Corey: Both Kathryn Tudor and Prince Alexander were very determined people; they wanted to accomplish things. In fact, I’d say that many of Prince Alexander’s earlier problems with his brother were due to the desire to do something, and nothing to do, and…

    Lucy Lawless: Thank you. So, you would say the two fell in love later?

    Vanessa Corey: I don’t know if we can definitively say the two ever fell in love. The Tudor family is full of great love stories; we all want to include Kathryn and Alexander in that. But, I just don’t know if we can number them among the great love stories.

    Vanessa Corey: The two were faithful to each other through war and infertility, Prince Alexander was Kathryn Tudor’s greatest defender, but were they ever in love? We don’t know. The two weren’t demonstrate people and neither were great letter writers or journal keepers.”
    Selections from the documentary Kathryn Tudor


    “Those few months in Scotland must have been extremely difficult for Kathryn Tudor. Conflicting reports would have been constantly arriving: Queen Catherine has complete control of England and Maria Tudor just landed, France and Navarre were keeping the Hapsburgs back, revolts are spring up all over England calling for Kathryn’s return, and many more. It must have been here that Kathryn Tudor realized one of her greatest advantages; she was here.

    She was here, her aunt was trapped on the continent. But, if this was to be part of her rallying cry, an English Queen, she needed to be in England. So, gathering her companions, Kathryn Tudor made the journey back to England. She would spend the next several years, hiding in various keeps and castles of supporters, appearing before crowds, and basically living her claim to being an English Queen.”
    Vanessa Corey, “Glorianna” ​
     
  14. Darth_Kiryan The Númenorean Sith

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    AUS
    Early unification of Scotland and England?
     
  15. Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    Eh, Alexander is pretty far back in the line of inheritance. King James has two sons and he and his wife are still young.



    But, the whole union of Scotland and England will be going differently in this timeline. I’m excited to see what’s you think when we get there.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  16. Threadmarks: Section Twenty-Four - 1540

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    “Prince Henry received the news of the death of his second son Francis, Duke of Calais, and of the brewing Civil War almost six months after the death of his third wife. King Henri III considered keeping the information from Prince Henry, fearing that the news of Prince Francis’s death would drive his father further into his depression. But, in the end, Prince Henry was told.”
    Rachel Rowell, “Father of the Reawakening, and a Good Father” ​


    “Prince Henry would speak before Cortes, requesting military assistance on behalf of his granddaughter. This speech linked the growing English civil war [1] with the Second War for the Soul of Navarre. Once again, Prince Henry claimed, papist forces attacked the sovereignty of a nation. Those dammed Catholics think they can just subvert the true heir, he would rage.

    Selections of this speech would be sent to various European leaders. One of which was the newly crowned King of France, L'autre Henri. [2]L’autre Henri must have felt that Prince Henry had a point. Perhaps L'autre Henri felt uncertain upon the thrown. Or many L'autre Henri simply sought to reawaken the old enmity between France and the Holy Roman Empire. Whatever the reason, France would stand with Navarre in support of Queen Kathryn and in keeping the empire’s forces from reaching England.”
    Matheo Henrikson, “The 1500’s Was A Crazy Century, and It Was Mostly the Tudors’ Fault”​

    [1] The Civil War would shortly be named Katies’ War.

    [2] Henry II Valois would never escape his nickname “the other Henry” or “L'autre Henri.” There were just too many Henry’s running around during this period.


    “Ferdinand I had intended to march his forces to the coast and from there sail to England. But, both Navarre and France would refuse him passage. War between the Empire on one side and France and Navarre on the other would break out early in 1540 and would last several months longer than Kathryn’s War.

    The actual Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V, wouldn’t be serious involved in the war due to a border conflict between the newly separated Castile and Aragon.”
    Oliva Martin, “Katies’ War” ​
     
  17. Threadmarks: Section Twenty-Five - 1541

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    “Fifteen forty ended with England deep in Katies’ War. Queen Kathryn Tudor had control of a good section of the north of England as well as lands near Norfolk. Queen Catherine of Aragon still had control of London and pretty much everything south of London.

    Queen Catherine’s position was suffering damage due to the continued absence of Maria Tudor; Queen Kathryn Tudor was in England. More and more, Queen Catherine of Aragon was viewed as a forging usurper. By March of fifteen forty-one, several of the Catholic nobles would reach out to Queen Kathryn Tudor.”
    Oliva Martin, “Katies’ War” ​


    “It is my greatest fear that to see faithfulness to God’s church, England will fall. Queen Catherine has ruled for almost a year with no sign of Queen Maria. News has reached us that the Spaniards are forming an armada. Queen Catherine assures that the fleet comes in support of Queen Maria, but is not Queen Maria bound by her husband’s will? And her husband is brother to the Spanish King. Where is God’s will in this?”
    Letter from Sir Thomas More to his wife, Alice​


    “Initial communication between Queen Kathryn Tudor and Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk and a leader among the Catholic nobles, was slow and short. She was distrustful of his motives, and probably suspected a trap. But, after several letters exchanged by trusted messengers, the two would meet.

    While what exactly was discussed during this meeting has been lost to history; we have no record. What we do know is whatever Queen Kathryn said convinced Norfolk. He would begin meeting with the other Catholic lords speaking on behalf of Queen Kathryn.”
    Walter Owens, “The Tragedy of Catherine of Aragon” ​
     
  18. Threadmarks: Section Twenty-Six - 1541

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    “With more and more Catholic nobles switching sides, Queen Kathryn Tudor began advancing on London. In light of the changing tides, Queen Catherine of Aragon made the choice to meet Queen Kathryn Tudor in person. The two met under a flag of truce in a field near Cambridge. It would be the last time grandmother and granddaughter would see each other.”
    Oliva Martin, “Katies’ War”​


    “Kenny_Art_my_boi: How about tonights episode! Kathryn and Catherine together again!

    Kath&Cat: that is not what happened! my girl kath was never that attached to gramma. that’s why the two are fascinating. the whole tudor family could get caught up in ‘there my family/can’t hurt them’ and the kath & cat are like, ‘kingdoms to rule, people to execute.’

    Malwavery: you’re just ticked you didn’t get to say Kathryn puts the cute in execute.

    Kenny_Art_my_boi: Hey, just cause Kathryn and Catherine tended towards country and duty over family, doesn’t mean they didn’t care for each other.

    Malwavery: didn’t Catherine later say Kathryn was the devil in disguise?

    Malwavery: whatever, the speech was super cool. anyone know how accurate the speech is?

    Kath&Cat: kath’s line ‘I am to be Queen of All England’ is a quote, but it’s from a later address about religion.

    Malwavery: cool”
    Tudor Chatroom​


    “Both Kathryn Tudor and Catherine of Aragon apparently offered to accept the other’s surrender at their last meeting at Cambridge. And both did have strong positions. Kathryn Tudor’s army had grown considerably in the last several months, but it still wasn’t as large as Catherine of Aragon’s mercenary augmented army. What’s more, Catherine of Aragon had walls to wait behind.

    The reunion would end without any significant agreements or concessions from either party. Catherine of Aragon would return to London and Kathryn Tudor would prepare for battle.”
    Everett Jacobs, “Catherine and Kathryn”​
     
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  19. Threadmarks: Section Twenty-Seven - 1542

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    “Lucy Lawless: This field would have been just like this, foggy and unclear, that August morning three hundred years ago when the forces of Kathryn Tudor attacked Queen Catherine. Where would Prince Alexander been? He was one of the general right?

    Vanessa Corey: Prince Alexander wasn’t attached to any of the companies or battalions, nor was he a general. In fact, he didn’t have any official authority. Formally, he was a guest of Queen Kathryn.

    Lucy Lawless: But he did fight?

    Vanessa Corey: Yes, he did, what’s more, he somehow found himself in command of one of the larger contingents after their commander died. He apparently talked them into following him.

    Lucy Lawless: And that sort of thing happened a lot?

    Vanessa Corey: All the time, Prince Alexander had this habit of not stopping, or pausing to think. Just, forging ahead. Most of the time that worked out for him. People are still arguing if it was luck or not.”
    Selections from the documentary Kathryn Tudor


    “The battle wage for several hours without either side gaining ground. Sometime around noon, reinforcements arrived. An army composed of Navarrese and French soldiers led by Prince Henry arrived during the Battle for London taking Queen Catherine completely by surprise. The tide of battle had changed.”
    Oliva Martin, “Katies’ War” ​


    “Queen Catherine left London forcibly escorted by several of her allies. She apparently had wished to fight to the last, but with forces abandoning them by the hour, several of her supporters retreated and took her with them. Ambassador Chapuys had arranged for a boat that would get them down the River Tames and to a ship waiting to take them to Castile. She would never return to England.”
    Walter Owens, “The Tragedy of Catherine of Aragon” ​
     
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  20. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    Feb 12, 2017
    Damn it. Poor Catherine. But hopefully Katheryn won't lead England to combust into a million little sparkly fires. Even if I have no faith in that girl.
     
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