From Exile to Triumph: a Western Roman Timeline
- Thread starter Flavius Iulius Nepos
- Start date
Yes, I understand. Problem is, for all the Restauratio Imperii rhetoric I have seen over the years, the more I read about the subject, the more I dislike Justinian-and at the same time, the more I am interested in seeing a TL where Italy remains Romano-Ostrogothic. But that is for another thread.
I would argue that for an Empire centered around Italy it makes more sense to take Hispania back than it was for Justinian, although I'd have preferred Western Rome and Visigothia allied and eventually hammering the Franks.
That would be quite difficult to pull off: having to deal with what is happening outside the Mediterranean/Persia (right now for example I can safely ignore what's going on in China or the Americas), new technologies, alternate ideologies and also find fresh material to fill 15 centuries worth of history.
If people would like it, at the end of the timeline (around the XI century more or less), or even in the middle of it, I might give the readers small glimpses at what I think ALT XXI century would look like (is the empire still around? Who rules it? Any past great event worth mentioning?). Personally though, I would prefer to leave to the readers figuring out their preferred canon subsequent events following the ending of the story.
That one I can do, provided I can give an equal or greater number of crisis.
Historically I don't think the empire really wasted that many resources on Hispania. Granted, it was probably not much of a boon either. 50 years later the province was almost completely gone. Here, given the hostile relationship and the fact the Goths could potentially threaten both Africa and Gallia, it made perfectly sense to either reconquer the kingdom or install a pro roman king (after all among the roman commanders is Agila's son Athalaric).
As for your wish of seeing the Goths around for longer I was thinking (but this is still just an idea) of turning the Gothic kingdom into a ghost title/entity, kinda like the kingdom of Italy was during the Middle age. Something for the anti-Roman elements in Hispania (some of them Goths and some not) to rally around. I think in OTL Spanish and Portuguese aristocracies and royal houses claimed some sort of link to the old Gothic kingdom. How about giving more substance to that claim (keep in mind neither Portugal nor Spain are going to be a thing here)?
A well done TL about the Ostrogothic kingdom would make for a great reading. Even a timeline where the attempt to win over the Goths through the marriage between Germanus Justinus and Matashunta succedes would be great (not sure it would count as a gothic kingdom though). And yes, Justinian is an emperor that needs to be more critically judged but at the same time it cannot be denied how great and important (with all the good and bad that came with it) his reign was.
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I had not thought of a Gothic "lost cause" of sorts but I do love the idea, it's pretty unique and fit. On the Goths (last come about it, I swear) I would love to see one where they integrate with the Roman populace and see how things evolve (even from a linguistic standpoint).
Two random questions I have on your TL, by this point the two Roman Emperors see each other as equals or the Western is still considered a junior partner? And does the better situation in the Balkans mean that probably the Eastern half does not make Greek official? I sort of like the idea of an alt-Griko evolving in Constantinople...
That is an even better way of describing it! Essentially something as dramatic as 1204 but for the Goths this time.
Oh don't worry, I do enjoy talking about the future direction of the timeline. It is a good source of inspiration and ideas I may implement in the story.
That is definitely in the card, Gothic elements joining forces with discontent roman aristocrats (and a few other key figures) and helping shaping a Roman culture heavily influenced by Gothic remnants. Comparisons with VIII-IX century Italy, divided between Roman and Germanic influences, come to mind. The church might also be of help if the Goths join Chalcedon yet the local clergy finds itself at odds with Rome for whatever reason. Of course the whole things deserves more thought and it is going to be a gradual process, with back and forth.
Legally speaking the Eastern emperor is the junior one, since he ascended to the throne a few years after Theodosius III. The two halves recognize each other as equals, even though the last ecumenical council has thrown a wrench against the notion of complete harmony between the two. Nothing too serious yet, but who knows in the future...
But, to be honest, the Eastern emperor is still way more powerful and in control of more resources compared to his Western colleague.
The current political situation, with Latin Illyricum still under the direct control of Constantinople and a more relevant West still part of the entire empire, favours the Status quo. Meaning the use of Latin in the palace, the army (at least when imparting commands) and the administration will remain a thing but Greek will be used to actually relay the will of the emperor to the people.
As for Greek evolving differently, that is possible but hard to tell exactly how at the moment: more likely Greek will remain its own and prestigious language, in the East definitely but also in the West where apparently IOTL such language almost lost all its importance but here, given how the two imperial administrations are intertwined, this may be avoided.
Thanks a lot for your answers! My question on the "junior Emperor" stemmed from the East's greater wealth and the OTL attitude of Majorian, who preferred to be acclaimed as "Imperator" and waited for Constantinople's approval to style himself as Augustus, but now the situation is completely different (besides, we are a century away from those facts). I would also love if you could give your feelings regarding TTL "present". Of course it is hard to tell, but I feel that ITTL, the Mediterranean and northern Europe will be culturally really different even to this day. I wonder if TTL "French" might resemble more English than French: a hybrid language that is Germanic in structure but with a vocabulary that is heavily influenced from Latin (and maybe more tha OTL by the Celtic substrate?)
Well that was very true for the first two emperors (Nepos and Marcian II) who had to be mindful of appeasing Constantinople, but now I think it is more of a matter or keeping up the formal protocol with the younger emperor paying homage to his senior colleague, regardless of geographic matters. We also need to keep in mind the two emperors are loosely related to each other and so, with one "single family" ruling the empire, succession should not be much of an issue when one emperor dies peacefully.
In this case I'll try to provide throughout the story small hints of what ATL modern world may look like. Occasional references to modern rulers, nations, buildings or events. But I'll also try to keep the whole thing as vague as possible for you to figure out, especially when it comes to the question "is the empire still around nowadays?"
I feel like the current situation would actually favour and even more Latinized "French" language. Between Francia bordering the empire, a Gallo-Roman aristocracy still going strong in all 3 Gallic kingdoms (Burgundy, Francia and of course the Empire) and an heavier emphasis on the idea that the western kings are still ruling in the name of the emperors I think this would be the more obvious outcome. However, there is one event (that would tie in with the secondary story I am trying to develop for Britain) that could actually somewhat favour the outcome you have in mind to a degree. And of course let's not forget what might happen in what is modern day Germany.
I personally loved the bit of the Dome still being the dominant part of modern day's Milan skyline, "although it's used for a different purpose". I immediately thought of it as the seat of a Senate/Parliament of sorts, although it was just a feeling.
My reasoning behind the modern French was that without OTL Southern France and with the surviving Empire, there would be less latin-speaking population, maybe more celtic substrate, thus increasing the Germanic weight in *French. So I thought that the Franks would be driven to preserve their distinctive "German" identity to distinguish themselves (especially if Burgundy, being closer, romanizes thoroughly and quickly). So I thought *French could evolve as a compromise language between the latin-speaking majority and the germanic speaking ruling class, so actually maybe a reverse of OTL English. Now that I think about it, Latin will be a prestige language even more so than OTL, so it was probably a silly comparison of mine. Nevermind
That is what I was referring to: small tidbits of modern day Europe, North Africa and the Near East without revealing too much about the future of the timeline itself. Are the Romans still a thing? What kind of government (if any) is using the building (imperial, republican, local city council)? For all we know it could be a museum or even a church.
It is not silly at all. I'll admit it, I am not an expert in languages and their evolution, I just know that many factors are usually at play at the same time. You bring up a correct point, southern Gaul is not part of Francia (for the time being at least) and Burgundy is closer to the imperial government (I am not even making this up, even after OTL fall of the West the Burgundians were quite the Romanophile bunch) than the Franks. It should be noted however that most barbarians were all too happy to embrace the many traditions and habits of the empire,even more so than preserving a separate identity. But things will definitely change and considering I only have a rough outline of the later centuries, almost all options are open.My reasoning behind the modern French was that without OTL Southern France and with the surviving Empire, there would be less latin-speaking population, maybe more celtic substrate, thus increasing the Germanic weight in *French. So I thought that the Franks would be driven to preserve their distinctive "German" identity to distinguish themselves (especially if Burgundy, being closer, romanizes thoroughly and quickly). So I thought *French could evolve as a compromise language between the latin-speaking majority and the germanic speaking ruling class, so actually maybe a reverse of OTL English. Now that I think about it, Latin will be a prestige language even more so than OTL, so it was probably a silly comparison of mine. Nevermind