So glad to see this back! Thanks for this wonderful installment, @Flavius Iulius Nepos . Regarding your question, I would say that the author is supreme. I do love some narrative updates (that have basically become dominant in my TL) but while they are a lot of fun to read and write because in my own view they really flesh the characters out, they do slow things down. But I say, why not do both? I would love to see a narrative showdown between Eleutherius and Valens, for instance; after that, one may well get some annals to get us some years ahead into the story. But please, take this for what it is: the wish of a fan.
From Exile to Triumph: a Western Roman Timeline
- Thread starter Flavius Iulius Nepos
- Start date
I really appreciate your compliment and you know what? That's actually a really good idea. I already have lots of details planned out for the next decade of events, which would be a pity to sacrifice, but after that I wouldn’t be sacrificing really anything. So I may as well keep going this way until the next generation of characters, before switching to another style. If people don’t like it, I may always come back to the original narration.
I haven’t had the chance to say this yet, but I’ve been really enjoying your and LordKalvan’s timeline the past few months. I still have some updates to read before I catch up but so far I find the premise and the story intriguing ( and that from someone who usually find hard to fall in love with modern Italian history). So keep up the great work.
Happy you liked my suggestion! Looking forward to seeing what's coming next, this great work of yours is by far one of my favorite TLs on this board!
Thanks a lot for your kind feedback on our work, that really means a lot to me. Modern Italian history has been a recent discovery for mine as well, I must admit I did not like it at all until last year, so I totally understand. We'll keep it up!
Well, I have to say I really like how you picked an historically missed opportunity and turned it around, without however having the Italians roll just all six. Relations with the church will probably be strained, as well as with Naples and Vienna (well the last one was definitely a given), while Trieste will probably be unable to join Italy. We have a smaller Italy here, almost surrounded by hostile powers, but 20 years ahead of time and without foreign intervention. Add to this that your Italy is going to be a confederation (going to follow closely what you are going to do with the Serenissima), and we already have a more successful story than OTL. Curious to see how, after the war is over, you are going to make Italy catch up to the other great powers (and what role they are going to play internationally), instead of being just the last of them all.Happy you liked my suggestion! Looking forward to seeing what's coming next, this great work of yours is by far one of my favorite TLs on this board!
Thanks a lot for your kind feedback on our work, that really means a lot to me. Modern Italian history has been a recent discovery for mine as well, I must admit I did not like it at all until last year, so I totally understand. We'll keep it up!
I think you should go for the annalistic route,just because it is easier to set up and drive. I like simplistic narration (as I am mostly interested in the history itself) but I also enjoy the details and the charachters. Overall,your narration isn't bad,it's very clear. Only thing you could improve is not to include pieces of narration that lead to nowhere,that's all. Waiting for your next chapter,of course.
Hello! Glad to see you here too! As I mentioned, I am a huge fan of this TL. I used to be a Late Antiquity fellow before devoting myself to modern times
That’s exactly what I feared was the problem with the narration: adding stuff that does nothing to improve the story while holding back a faster development of the timeline. So, I guess I’ll just keep this way for a few more years of the story before switching to the new format. Then hopefully I should actually be able to cover 5/10 years with each new update (and considering I have something like 300/400 more years to cover, that’s still enough stuff to keep the timeline going for a while). Of course, that’s just a rough estimation, turbulent times will of course be more detailed and packed with information, thus covering less years.
Thank you for your and everyone’s feedback!
Late antiquity rules. I used to be into the middle/late Roman republic before (I especially love the second Punic war) and still am to a degree. But then I discovered the Late Antiquity (thanks partly to my university) and now I am going to specialize on it instead of on the republic.Hello! Glad to see you here too! As I mentioned, I am a huge fan of this TL. I used to be a Late Antiquity fellow before devoting myself to modern times
You could just do the narrative updates as sort of a interlude or closer loo into certain people instead. Have the annalistic updates be the main ones and only write the Narrative ones when you’re in a block or need a breather.
Oh yeah I also love Late Antiquity,it really feels like the end of an era. That's why I really like WRE TLs (and to a lesser extent ERE ones). In fact the very first Timeline I read was "The Reign of Romulus Augustus",which was such a fantastic one.
Yeah, it seems to be unanimous, after switching to new format (I’ll write 4 or 5 more updates this way first) I’ll just save the narrative updates for key characters and events.
It’s also a bit easier (at least for me) to write a timeline where the Romans are not exactly at the peak of their power and lots of changes are taking place, for bad or for good. I also remember the first timeline I read was a late antiquity one, followed by a Greek-Megali idea one (years later I even found out that its author is in this forum as well).
I have to admit that one of the reasons that made me fall in love with Late Antiquity is that is a part of history that is so neglected at the Italian school, even good ones. I attended a very good Liceo Classico and all we got regarding the late Empire was "yeah, you know, decadence, Romulus Augustulus, boring Middle Ages starting". Years later, in my university years, I stumbled upon a very good novel, "Imperator" by Giulio Castelli. Only then I understood that there was more, a lot more. There are just so many characters and situations to play with to construct a radically different world...
I attended a Liceo Scientifico and we literally skipped all of that. Even Justinian and the whole reconquest of the West. Comes 1453 the only thing the professor had to say was: “we’ll skip that since it was not that important anyway”. Didn’t really help that she was also teaching Literature, so she would always sacrifice History for the latter. Kinda annoying but unlike university, High school is not exactly a place for debates. There definitely is however a more general problem in Italy regarding how history is taught.
I remember that book too, whenever I was in a book store that would frequently pop up, so I would read it leaving the rest for the next time. I think it was also part of some sort of unofficial trilogy, but all the books had a really depressing ending (I mean considering the setting it would have been alternate history otherwise). But yeah, the potential for alternate history is great, probably the best if you want to write something about the roman empire (unless you are aiming for an early Rome-screw of course).
Well at least in my school the teacher tried to teach us about the Late Empire,but in a non-organic way. I only understood the situation there a bit later. Also yeah,a lot of super interesting charachters are in this period,like Aetius,Majorian,Theodoric the Great,Anastasius,Stilicho et cetera....
Chapter LXI: Magnificent Mediolanum
Chapter LXI
Magnificent Mediolanum
555
News of the victory over the Goths spreads all over the empire. A lavish triumph is arranged for the victorious Theodosius Augustus in the imperial city of Mediolanum. His new conquest is celebrated on new coins depicting Hispania being freed and Gothia begging for mercy in front of the personification of Rome.
The old Diocese is formally reestablished in the peninsula, including 6 of the 7 (the last one andportions of the others are still ruled by the Suebi) old provinces: Tarraconensis, Baetica, Carthaginensis, Lusitania, Hispania Balearica, and Mauretania Tingitana. Of these, Lusitania exist mostly on paper while the creation of Tingitana, more of a series of cities and fortresses along the coast rather than an actual province, preceded the actual conquest of Hispania, being formerly subjected to the authority of Carthage. As for the other three mainland provinces, their control over the countryside is still tenuous at best, especially far from the eastern coast.
At the head of the administration of the new Diocese is placed Flavius Rusticus Caesarius Candidus, former right-hand man of king Agila, tasked with the restoration of the application of proper Roman law in the kingdom turned province, the abrogation of the measures of the last 2 kings, the return of all ecclesiastical properties to the true Nicene church, ensuring peace and concord between Romans and Goths and most importantly a steady income towards the imperial treasury. All attempts made by Caesarius to win over the Goths however are thwarted by the imperial palace’s demands to ensure the new conquest immediately starts to repay itself, with obvious disastrous consequences for the future of the DIocese.
The new Vicarius sets up the administration of Diocese in the city of Carthago Nova. The entire Diocese is placed within the Praetorian Praefecture of Gallia, ruled from the city of Arelate. A few years later, with the end of the term of current Praefectus Praetorio, Caesarius would be chosen to succeed him. Still, despite the higher level of power at hand and the obvious focus of the new Praetorian administration on Hispania, roman authority would fail in stabilizing the situation and finding a solution to the many problems troubling the recent conquest [1].
556
While the empire is still celebrating its most recent victory over the last barbarian tyrant lording over the Roman population of the West, roman units and their allies are being gradually recalled from Hispania. Of the army that had conquered the kingdom only a few units are left behind, to deal with those Goths still at large and refusing to submit to Rome. Over time those units would become the spine of the new army of Hispania, tasked with ensuring the conquest would be permanent. At the head of the new army is Flavius Anthemius Valens himself, left there by an imperial administration that clearly doesn’t want him back so soon.
Among the commanders and officers recalled from Hispania is Procopius, a man of Eastern origin who managed to earn a commendation for his campaign of distraction in the southern portion of the kingdom. Back in Mediolanum Procopius would deliver a panegyric dedicated to emperor Theodosius, on the occasion of the latter elevation of his young son Valentinian to the rank of Caesar, that would win him the approval of the palace and the commission for a new historical work: a history of the Gothic wars (both against the Pannonians Goths and the Visigoths) as a continuation of his previous “History of the Wars” against Persians and Vandals, itself a continuation of prince Procopius’ biography of his father Iulius Nepos.
In Mediolanum meanwhile the emperor would find another way to celebrate and immortalize his own reign, by commissioning several works of arts, some defying the technological limits of the age, some defying the slow march of time and some defying both of them. Among them, and probably the most important one, was the Augustaeum. Informarlly also known as The Hall of Theodosius, the Augustaeum represented a new addition to the imperial complex of the palace, itself a subject of restoration and new additions. A giant new hall, meant for receiving and impress foreign embassies and more commonly to host the different session of the imperial Consistorium, its most remarkable feature was the giant dome surmounting it, the largest in the city and the entire empire. Such impressive display of defiance to the limits of mankind would be further adorned and embellished by both external and internal art. On the outside the dome was a real-life-size bronze statue of the emperor holding a Labarum surmounting the whole structure and dominating the entire city. On the inside the ceiling of the dome was covered by a giant circular mosaic divided in two different scenes: on the lower half of it was the portrayal of the different provinces and people of the empire (Italia, Africa, Gallia, Hispania, Illyricum) as women standing together on left while on the right representatives of the many people defeated in recent years (Persians, Vandals, Goths) were portrayed kneeling with their arms stretched out forward. All their gazes fixed towards the center of the ceiling, where a Chi Rho dominated the entire mosaic. On the upper half instead, was a real scene of emperor Theodosius (in purple and golden robes) surrounded by the members of his administration and the commanders of the army. The figure of the emperors is obviously the focus of the scene, serene yet resolute, still many other historical figures can be recognized on this scene. Close to the emperor was the ever looming and powerful Eleutherius yet more puzzling was the figure immediately to the right of Theodosius. Dressed richly as an imperial prince, it was always assumed to be the young Caesar Valentinianus but many are not so sure about this identification as the figure in the scene looks like representing a young man (20-30 years old), while the young Caesar at the time the whole construction started was barely 12.
Other ways to celebrate the emperor’s patronage of the city of Mediolanum was a new triumphal arch, commemorating the end of the gothic tyranny, a new triumphal column surmounted by an equestrian statue of the emperor with the horse standing on his hind legs and the restoration of several older building closer to the imperial neighbourhood of the city. These and many others display of imperial might would contribute to the golden age of the city of Mediolanum (the one to benefit the most from the current emperor’s liberality) and the sorrow state of imperial finances at the end of Theodosius’ reign. For there was no doubt that this was a great age, but its many contradictions and flaws would soon catch up to the emperor and his successors.
Regardless of that, to this day the Augustaeum (and the whole imperial palace for that matter) still is the city’s most recognizable feature dominating its skyline with its imposing magnificence, despite the many tragedies and disasters that have befallen over the city during the course of a millennium and more and the fact that it is no longer used for the original purpose Theodosius III had in mind.
Note
[1] To be listed next time.
Ok so apparently, I have been away for a while (first time I get to see the website asking me if I really want to post on a thread that old) but I hope this update shows you this is not dead, although just crawling really slowly. I’ve been really busy with study and exams for the past few months and only now I am finally getting a few days for myself (before having to plunge again into deep study). I’ll keep posting new updates every time I get some decent time off study. You may also have noticed this update is slightly different (all the internal thoughts and streams of consciousness of the various characters are gone), this is only a first step towards a, let’s call it, annalistic style I want to try in order to make narration of events quicker and easier. But at the same time, I don’t want to cut out too many details, those are what make this fictitious world somewhat alive. I’ll give it some further thoughts before the next update. Enjoy!
Magnificent Mediolanum
555
News of the victory over the Goths spreads all over the empire. A lavish triumph is arranged for the victorious Theodosius Augustus in the imperial city of Mediolanum. His new conquest is celebrated on new coins depicting Hispania being freed and Gothia begging for mercy in front of the personification of Rome.
The old Diocese is formally reestablished in the peninsula, including 6 of the 7 (the last one andportions of the others are still ruled by the Suebi) old provinces: Tarraconensis, Baetica, Carthaginensis, Lusitania, Hispania Balearica, and Mauretania Tingitana. Of these, Lusitania exist mostly on paper while the creation of Tingitana, more of a series of cities and fortresses along the coast rather than an actual province, preceded the actual conquest of Hispania, being formerly subjected to the authority of Carthage. As for the other three mainland provinces, their control over the countryside is still tenuous at best, especially far from the eastern coast.
At the head of the administration of the new Diocese is placed Flavius Rusticus Caesarius Candidus, former right-hand man of king Agila, tasked with the restoration of the application of proper Roman law in the kingdom turned province, the abrogation of the measures of the last 2 kings, the return of all ecclesiastical properties to the true Nicene church, ensuring peace and concord between Romans and Goths and most importantly a steady income towards the imperial treasury. All attempts made by Caesarius to win over the Goths however are thwarted by the imperial palace’s demands to ensure the new conquest immediately starts to repay itself, with obvious disastrous consequences for the future of the DIocese.
The new Vicarius sets up the administration of Diocese in the city of Carthago Nova. The entire Diocese is placed within the Praetorian Praefecture of Gallia, ruled from the city of Arelate. A few years later, with the end of the term of current Praefectus Praetorio, Caesarius would be chosen to succeed him. Still, despite the higher level of power at hand and the obvious focus of the new Praetorian administration on Hispania, roman authority would fail in stabilizing the situation and finding a solution to the many problems troubling the recent conquest [1].
556
While the empire is still celebrating its most recent victory over the last barbarian tyrant lording over the Roman population of the West, roman units and their allies are being gradually recalled from Hispania. Of the army that had conquered the kingdom only a few units are left behind, to deal with those Goths still at large and refusing to submit to Rome. Over time those units would become the spine of the new army of Hispania, tasked with ensuring the conquest would be permanent. At the head of the new army is Flavius Anthemius Valens himself, left there by an imperial administration that clearly doesn’t want him back so soon.
Among the commanders and officers recalled from Hispania is Procopius, a man of Eastern origin who managed to earn a commendation for his campaign of distraction in the southern portion of the kingdom. Back in Mediolanum Procopius would deliver a panegyric dedicated to emperor Theodosius, on the occasion of the latter elevation of his young son Valentinian to the rank of Caesar, that would win him the approval of the palace and the commission for a new historical work: a history of the Gothic wars (both against the Pannonians Goths and the Visigoths) as a continuation of his previous “History of the Wars” against Persians and Vandals, itself a continuation of prince Procopius’ biography of his father Iulius Nepos.
In Mediolanum meanwhile the emperor would find another way to celebrate and immortalize his own reign, by commissioning several works of arts, some defying the technological limits of the age, some defying the slow march of time and some defying both of them. Among them, and probably the most important one, was the Augustaeum. Informarlly also known as The Hall of Theodosius, the Augustaeum represented a new addition to the imperial complex of the palace, itself a subject of restoration and new additions. A giant new hall, meant for receiving and impress foreign embassies and more commonly to host the different session of the imperial Consistorium, its most remarkable feature was the giant dome surmounting it, the largest in the city and the entire empire. Such impressive display of defiance to the limits of mankind would be further adorned and embellished by both external and internal art. On the outside the dome was a real-life-size bronze statue of the emperor holding a Labarum surmounting the whole structure and dominating the entire city. On the inside the ceiling of the dome was covered by a giant circular mosaic divided in two different scenes: on the lower half of it was the portrayal of the different provinces and people of the empire (Italia, Africa, Gallia, Hispania, Illyricum) as women standing together on left while on the right representatives of the many people defeated in recent years (Persians, Vandals, Goths) were portrayed kneeling with their arms stretched out forward. All their gazes fixed towards the center of the ceiling, where a Chi Rho dominated the entire mosaic. On the upper half instead, was a real scene of emperor Theodosius (in purple and golden robes) surrounded by the members of his administration and the commanders of the army. The figure of the emperors is obviously the focus of the scene, serene yet resolute, still many other historical figures can be recognized on this scene. Close to the emperor was the ever looming and powerful Eleutherius yet more puzzling was the figure immediately to the right of Theodosius. Dressed richly as an imperial prince, it was always assumed to be the young Caesar Valentinianus but many are not so sure about this identification as the figure in the scene looks like representing a young man (20-30 years old), while the young Caesar at the time the whole construction started was barely 12.
Other ways to celebrate the emperor’s patronage of the city of Mediolanum was a new triumphal arch, commemorating the end of the gothic tyranny, a new triumphal column surmounted by an equestrian statue of the emperor with the horse standing on his hind legs and the restoration of several older building closer to the imperial neighbourhood of the city. These and many others display of imperial might would contribute to the golden age of the city of Mediolanum (the one to benefit the most from the current emperor’s liberality) and the sorrow state of imperial finances at the end of Theodosius’ reign. For there was no doubt that this was a great age, but its many contradictions and flaws would soon catch up to the emperor and his successors.
Regardless of that, to this day the Augustaeum (and the whole imperial palace for that matter) still is the city’s most recognizable feature dominating its skyline with its imposing magnificence, despite the many tragedies and disasters that have befallen over the city during the course of a millennium and more and the fact that it is no longer used for the original purpose Theodosius III had in mind.
Note
[1] To be listed next time.
Ok so apparently, I have been away for a while (first time I get to see the website asking me if I really want to post on a thread that old) but I hope this update shows you this is not dead, although just crawling really slowly. I’ve been really busy with study and exams for the past few months and only now I am finally getting a few days for myself (before having to plunge again into deep study). I’ll keep posting new updates every time I get some decent time off study. You may also have noticed this update is slightly different (all the internal thoughts and streams of consciousness of the various characters are gone), this is only a first step towards a, let’s call it, annalistic style I want to try in order to make narration of events quicker and easier. But at the same time, I don’t want to cut out too many details, those are what make this fictitious world somewhat alive. I’ll give it some further thoughts before the next update. Enjoy!
It may take me some time but I fully intend to reach the end of the story.
Glad to hear that!
Indeed it will. It may also turn into an interesting area for some experimentation. Without revealing too much besides what is already known, I can tell this will not be fun time for the Romans.
To be honest I originally did not intend for Theodosius to be a hated character, more like a divisive one. On one end he is not the "knight in shining armour" like his father was (sort of at least). On the other, if you think of it, he is not much different from Justinian (himself a rather controversial emperor IOTL) for better or worse. Theodosius III is a much needed plot device to move the story forward and avoid a permanent golden age for the empire. But I can totally see why readers would prefer Anthemius Valens over him, for the same reason you would hardly find anyone hating on Belisarius (speaking of which I think it probably is time to see if the son is anything like the father).
I read that wrong and I thought you wrote: "the end of history." I can't even imagine how something like the 20th Century would even be with all these divergences and historical developments.
Byzantines: Why have one golden age when you can have multiple?
Some things remain the same I guess. Justinian in otl wasted his resources trying to gain the southern coasts of Hispania when he should have been bolstering Italy or the Danube.