yeah, there was a lot of jealousy and just plain stupidity in how that was handled
plus they were pretty exhausted by that point (the men)
Eisenhower in the Pacific: Part 1 The Shoestring Warriors of Luzon
- Thread starter galveston bay
- Start date
yeah, there was a lot of jealousy and just plain stupidity in how that was handled
plus they were pretty exhausted by that point (the men)
Thanks for the breakdown on TTL planes in the Philippines. Glad to hear that the surviving Tigers will make it to China. Hopefully having more real combat experience will assist them when they take on the Japanese over Chinese cities and inflict even more casualties on the Japanese hordes.
And I'm simply waiting for the fun of the fecal matter hitting the air circulation device
Fearless Leader
Donor
Interesting butterfly...without having to refuel by hand the B-17s flying from Pearl to Clark, the Marines at Wake are likely a bit more prepared for when the Japanese arrive.
I hadn't thought of that, but in this timeline they still go down.. just go down a bit harder
marathag
Banned
Where does Albert Baumler in this TL end up? Going to the PI shouldn't give him the OTL passport troubles with joining the AVG at the start
he didn't need a passport to go to the Philippines but did in OTL to go to Hong Kong and then Burma
so he is the civilian who served with the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War who is now working for the Philippine Army Air Force (although on December 8 he is still in Cebu)
The US military took a rather short sighted view of Americans who served in the Spanish Civil War on the Republican side, considering them tainted with Communism
Here the US forces have about 43 more operational P-40s than OTL, about the same number of P-26. No P-35, but these are replaced by P-40s and the total fighter numbers are larger. The A-24's can be very useful and the increased observation and transport aircraft will come in handy. The increased observation aircraft (land and seaplanes) will be another plus. perhaps the biggest plus will be the dispersal to well equipped fields.
Depending on the actual location of the fields on Formosa, the flight distances will be roughly 550-750 miles to the various targets on Luzon.While the Zeroes and the Betty and the Kate had the range to reach these targets the Nates did not, operating form the closest possible fields they barely made northern Luzon. At least early on the US forces can operate from fields where the bombers would be unescorted or with escorts that had minimal time over target. With more time and better planning the airfields on Luzon can be damaged enough to take some time for Japanese to get in to service - especially if care is taken to destroy bulldozers etc. Japanese heavy engineering equipment accompanying forces was generally not very robust compared to US equipment and certainly not as prevalent. Keeping the Japanese from making use of fields on Luzon as long as possible will be important so the engineers hopefully will crater concrete runways, destroy facilities etc quite thoroughly.
Depending on the actual location of the fields on Formosa, the flight distances will be roughly 550-750 miles to the various targets on Luzon.While the Zeroes and the Betty and the Kate had the range to reach these targets the Nates did not, operating form the closest possible fields they barely made northern Luzon. At least early on the US forces can operate from fields where the bombers would be unescorted or with escorts that had minimal time over target. With more time and better planning the airfields on Luzon can be damaged enough to take some time for Japanese to get in to service - especially if care is taken to destroy bulldozers etc. Japanese heavy engineering equipment accompanying forces was generally not very robust compared to US equipment and certainly not as prevalent. Keeping the Japanese from making use of fields on Luzon as long as possible will be important so the engineers hopefully will crater concrete runways, destroy facilities etc quite thoroughly.
Now, I can understand giving Hart a DC-3, OTL and I imagine, ttl, Iloio, and Cebu were Hart's anchorages for the Asiatic Fleet. With AVG fields at those locations Hart does not need his PBY transport. Are the AVD Preston and AVP Huron at their OTL anchorages with J2F'S?
no because Phillips isn't there yet and has a somewhat different fleet
Japanese Plans
Japanese Plan for the Philippines
The initial plan to conquer the Philippines is put forward based on more general plans developed over the last 20 years in October 1941.
The first phase will be the destruction of the primary American airbases at Clark, Nichols, and Nielson, as well as the destruction of the American Navy Yard at Cavite.
The next phase will be the seizure of forward bases at Legaspi, Aparri, Vigan, as well as seizing the Cagayan Valley in Luzon, as well as a landing at Davao to seize that useful harbor and establish airfields there for operations toward the eastern Dutch East Indies and Darwin, which is viewed as a primary goal for the defense of the East Indies and Malaya once they are seized (as well as ensuring they are seized more easily by blocking a major route of Allied reinforcements to the East Indies from Australia).
Once American air and naval power in the Philippines has been crippled, then a two prong landing will be conducted at Lingayen Gulf and Lamon Bay and these two forces will drive to Manila and destroy the bulk of the American troops in a pincer movement. Once that is completed the remaining American troops that retreat to Bataan will be mopped up.
The final phases will be the seizure of the remaining islands, including a siege and assault on the powerful American fortress at Corregidor.
The Japanese War Plan
The entire operation as planned is expected to be completed by the end of January 1942, but some of the forces assigned will be moved to other assignments and replaced by troops from Manchuria as it is clear in October 1941 that the Soviet Union is collapsing in the face of German assaults which frees additional forces needed for the campaigns planned against northern Australia and eastern India.
Once the Southern Resource area has been seized and the vital western and southern perimeters secured, then the eastern perimeter will be seized by the Navy while the Army finishes off the now isolated Chinese Nationalist government which will have only the barest communication with the outside world over the Himalayas or via Sinkiang to Afghanistan and the Soviet Union.
This is the amended plan as revised after the revision of the Navy plan to destroy the American fleet in the Hawaiian Islands (described in "Battle at Dawn") and based on urging by voices in the Army that point out that the Soviets are clearly finished (with the destruction of huge numbers of their troops at Kiev and Vyzama). The final thing that convinces the Army to strip its forces in Manchuria by 50% is the discovery of the arrival of more American Regular Army and National Guard units in Luzon and the reports that far more on the way. This more than anything else makes it clear that the seizure of Darwin is vital, while intelligence reports that the Americans have a covert fighter group training in the Philippines that they plan to send to China, as well as the reports from German and Italian intelligence that British reinforcements are on their way to Singapore means that the British must be driven not only out of Burma but also eastern India to prevent any allied help from reaching China and thus prolonging that bleeding ulcer for the Japanese Army still further.
Once all of the above have been accomplished, the Navy with Army help will hold the eastern and southern borders of the perimeter anchored at Darwin, Rabual (to be seized June 1942) and Midway (to be seized on December 10-11, 1941), while the Army with Navy assistance will hold the western perimeter (eastern India), mop up the Chinese Nationalists, and once those goals are accomplished, the shattered Soviet Union (which the Germans will certainly finish off by 1942 at the latest) will be helpless to stop the Japanese seizure of Siberia in 1943-44.
The Americans and British will then sue for peace after being defeated when they attack the perimeter and Japan will be the dominant power in the Pacific and Asia.
Such is the plan. Only a few question the final assumption, among them Yamamoto, but their voices are drowned out.
The initial plan to conquer the Philippines is put forward based on more general plans developed over the last 20 years in October 1941.
The first phase will be the destruction of the primary American airbases at Clark, Nichols, and Nielson, as well as the destruction of the American Navy Yard at Cavite.
The next phase will be the seizure of forward bases at Legaspi, Aparri, Vigan, as well as seizing the Cagayan Valley in Luzon, as well as a landing at Davao to seize that useful harbor and establish airfields there for operations toward the eastern Dutch East Indies and Darwin, which is viewed as a primary goal for the defense of the East Indies and Malaya once they are seized (as well as ensuring they are seized more easily by blocking a major route of Allied reinforcements to the East Indies from Australia).
Once American air and naval power in the Philippines has been crippled, then a two prong landing will be conducted at Lingayen Gulf and Lamon Bay and these two forces will drive to Manila and destroy the bulk of the American troops in a pincer movement. Once that is completed the remaining American troops that retreat to Bataan will be mopped up.
The final phases will be the seizure of the remaining islands, including a siege and assault on the powerful American fortress at Corregidor.
The Japanese War Plan
The entire operation as planned is expected to be completed by the end of January 1942, but some of the forces assigned will be moved to other assignments and replaced by troops from Manchuria as it is clear in October 1941 that the Soviet Union is collapsing in the face of German assaults which frees additional forces needed for the campaigns planned against northern Australia and eastern India.
Once the Southern Resource area has been seized and the vital western and southern perimeters secured, then the eastern perimeter will be seized by the Navy while the Army finishes off the now isolated Chinese Nationalist government which will have only the barest communication with the outside world over the Himalayas or via Sinkiang to Afghanistan and the Soviet Union.
This is the amended plan as revised after the revision of the Navy plan to destroy the American fleet in the Hawaiian Islands (described in "Battle at Dawn") and based on urging by voices in the Army that point out that the Soviets are clearly finished (with the destruction of huge numbers of their troops at Kiev and Vyzama). The final thing that convinces the Army to strip its forces in Manchuria by 50% is the discovery of the arrival of more American Regular Army and National Guard units in Luzon and the reports that far more on the way. This more than anything else makes it clear that the seizure of Darwin is vital, while intelligence reports that the Americans have a covert fighter group training in the Philippines that they plan to send to China, as well as the reports from German and Italian intelligence that British reinforcements are on their way to Singapore means that the British must be driven not only out of Burma but also eastern India to prevent any allied help from reaching China and thus prolonging that bleeding ulcer for the Japanese Army still further.
Once all of the above have been accomplished, the Navy with Army help will hold the eastern and southern borders of the perimeter anchored at Darwin, Rabual (to be seized June 1942) and Midway (to be seized on December 10-11, 1941), while the Army with Navy assistance will hold the western perimeter (eastern India), mop up the Chinese Nationalists, and once those goals are accomplished, the shattered Soviet Union (which the Germans will certainly finish off by 1942 at the latest) will be helpless to stop the Japanese seizure of Siberia in 1943-44.
The Americans and British will then sue for peace after being defeated when they attack the perimeter and Japan will be the dominant power in the Pacific and Asia.
Such is the plan. Only a few question the final assumption, among them Yamamoto, but their voices are drowned out.
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And as we know, the Japanese didn't knock out the US Pacific Fleet or capture Midway at all. The Kido Butai is just a shadow of its former self and now they are hiking back to Japan for repairs.
More like overzealous failure, in my eyes.
authors notes:
Major points of departure
The Japanese are more certain that the Soviets are finished (not unreasonable, the US and British governments were pretty sure of this too in October and November 1941)
More American forces in the Philippines and discovery that more are on the way did happen, and the Japanese did adjust their forces. In this TTL the Japanese decide that Darwin and eastern India (specifically Bengal and Assam) must be conquered to prevent American airpower from reaching China and thus prolonging what is indeed a running sore for the Japanese. That requires more troops.
The "Battle at Dawn" story discusses what the Japanese plan for the US Pacific Fleet in TTL. Destroy what they can at Pearl Harbor and then draw the rest out for a battle that finishes it off by landing at Midway as bait. Now this didn't work out as planned but the Japanese do not know this when they plan their campaigns in late 1941.
The Japanese stripped Manchuria of much of the garrison there over 1942-44, replacing it second and third line reservists (that were meat when the Soviets came calling in August 1945) so stripping it earlier is not unrealistic although is a major departure. Now the Japanese do not foresee that airlift over the Hump (which was an amazing accomplishment really) but they do see the Americans sending fighters and bombers to the Chinese that would create further difficulties. Burma was seized in part to cut China off. Seizing Calcutta and Assam just takes that further and prevents the Allies from sending aircraft to China.
Darwin is far from Australian centers of economy and population. In real terms it is practically an island with a vast desert in the south, ports that are far away, and with a difficult approach via the Coral Sea from the east. It is also practically naked in December 1941 and reinforcing it was difficult.
This is the Japanese order of Battle December 1941 which I will be using.
http://niehorster.org/014_japan/_ops.html
again click on units and you get sub units and click on those and you get down to individual ships, including the names of transport vessels
The minor amendment is that the Striking Force has all 4 fast BB and more tankers, and the Mutsu and Nagato are with the Southern Operation Covering Force (instead of the 2 FBB) and there are fewer tankers. The major amendment is that the operation to seize the Gilbert Islands and Bismark Operation are postponed for later (May - June 1942) and those troops went to Guam, while the Guam invasion force went to Midway (and its doom)
here is a map of the actual Luzon Campaign
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/engineers_v1_1947/luzon_bataan_1941_42.jpg
Major points of departure
The Japanese are more certain that the Soviets are finished (not unreasonable, the US and British governments were pretty sure of this too in October and November 1941)
More American forces in the Philippines and discovery that more are on the way did happen, and the Japanese did adjust their forces. In this TTL the Japanese decide that Darwin and eastern India (specifically Bengal and Assam) must be conquered to prevent American airpower from reaching China and thus prolonging what is indeed a running sore for the Japanese. That requires more troops.
The "Battle at Dawn" story discusses what the Japanese plan for the US Pacific Fleet in TTL. Destroy what they can at Pearl Harbor and then draw the rest out for a battle that finishes it off by landing at Midway as bait. Now this didn't work out as planned but the Japanese do not know this when they plan their campaigns in late 1941.
The Japanese stripped Manchuria of much of the garrison there over 1942-44, replacing it second and third line reservists (that were meat when the Soviets came calling in August 1945) so stripping it earlier is not unrealistic although is a major departure. Now the Japanese do not foresee that airlift over the Hump (which was an amazing accomplishment really) but they do see the Americans sending fighters and bombers to the Chinese that would create further difficulties. Burma was seized in part to cut China off. Seizing Calcutta and Assam just takes that further and prevents the Allies from sending aircraft to China.
Darwin is far from Australian centers of economy and population. In real terms it is practically an island with a vast desert in the south, ports that are far away, and with a difficult approach via the Coral Sea from the east. It is also practically naked in December 1941 and reinforcing it was difficult.
This is the Japanese order of Battle December 1941 which I will be using.
http://niehorster.org/014_japan/_ops.html
again click on units and you get sub units and click on those and you get down to individual ships, including the names of transport vessels
The minor amendment is that the Striking Force has all 4 fast BB and more tankers, and the Mutsu and Nagato are with the Southern Operation Covering Force (instead of the 2 FBB) and there are fewer tankers. The major amendment is that the operation to seize the Gilbert Islands and Bismark Operation are postponed for later (May - June 1942) and those troops went to Guam, while the Guam invasion force went to Midway (and its doom)
here is a map of the actual Luzon Campaign
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/engineers_v1_1947/luzon_bataan_1941_42.jpg
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historical Campaign Map (OTL)
The Lamon Bay landing and landings further south are not pictured