Status
Not open for further replies.
Okay, REALLY random question: but I was doing research at the archives today going over an Irish Catholic newspaper in Wisconsin when I saw this utter monstrocity in the adverts.

ClimaxPlug.jpg



Which got me thinking about the state of the local tobacco industry in the United States and the CSA - obviously the succession of the South would have major impacts therein; and I wonder is 'smoking culture' developed differently in OTL
 
...I can't believe I didn't think about that but yeah, the bulk of the tobacco is in the CSA. This could have *so* much knock off effects by this ITTL 1914, to say nothing of what it will be like in later decades. Perhaps there is an earlier, more concerted effort to discourage tobacco in light of most of it being grown in the CSA.
 
What year was the newspaper? I'm not absolving anyone for producing it, just curious.
I believe that that was in late 1892/early 1893. Oddly enough, I looked up the company and in addition to knowing some of their brands (when I smoked I was an American Spirits guy myself. Such a hipster :) ) it was the oldest tobacco brand in the United States. Founded in New York in the 1760s and was an independebt company til being bought out in 2014.
 
Okay, REALLY random question: but I was doing research at the archives today going over an Irish Catholic newspaper in Wisconsin when I saw this utter monstrocity in the adverts.

View attachment 795475


Which got me thinking about the state of the local tobacco industry in the United States and the CSA - obviously the succession of the South would have major impacts therein; and I wonder is 'smoking culture' developed differently in OTL
Really depends on how the country is anti-tobacco. High Tarriffs probably push a much higher area of Maryland and Delaware to the Tobacco industry and increase imports from Cuba. OTOH, if Tobacco as a product falls into simply not socially acceptable given that it shows support for the CSA, it might get swept into the prohibition movement.

(for the second, think about how Vodka sales have gone over the last year - small touch on OTL politics)
 
My skepticism on the idea that tobacco use might collapse completely without the South is that much of Europe and East Asia smokes like chimneys even to this day without much of a domestic tobacco production industry. You'd probably see a big drop in tobacco imports during the GAW, certainly, and that probably gives you a generation that IOTL smoked quite a bit which ITTL doesn't, so the decline in tobacco use in the US maybe starts earlier than OTL, but I'm not sure exactly how big an effect that has. Maybe people start smoking doobies instead if you can't get tobacco from down South easily haha
@KingSweden24 Personally I think that you could just make longer combo posts to fit in the international stuff whilst still finishing up the GAW nicely. I've always liked having more to read rather than less.
Yeah, a trend towards longer combo posts is inevitable anyways just to better organize some of my thoughts and for pacing regardless
 
My skepticism on the idea that tobacco use might collapse completely without the South is that much of Europe and East Asia smokes like chimneys even to this day without much of a domestic tobacco production industry. You'd probably see a big drop in tobacco imports during the GAW, certainly, and that probably gives you a generation that IOTL smoked quite a bit which ITTL doesn't, so the decline in tobacco use in the US maybe starts earlier than OTL, but I'm not sure exactly how big an effect that has. Maybe people start smoking doobies instead if you can't get tobacco from down South easily haha

Yeah, a trend towards longer combo posts is inevitable anyways just to better organize some of my thoughts and for pacing regardless
and a large amount of the pre-war tobacco growing area inside the United States (the counties on the west side of the Chesapeake south of Annapolis and Washington) will be under confederate control and even parts of the Eastern Shore will be disrupted as well. So a drop in Tobacco imports (which were probably already under pressure by those against the CSA) and internal production.

OTOH, I'm not sure in the end that the effort to reduce the diamonds bought from South Africa went anywhere, but the question is whether the post war Confederacy will be viewed significantly more favorably by the average USA citizen post war, the way that Mandela South Africa was. I expect *not*.

I know it is a joke, but Marijuana could have a *significantly* different path iTTL.
 
My skepticism on the idea that tobacco use might collapse completely without the South is that much of Europe and East Asia smokes like chimneys even to this day without much of a domestic tobacco production industry.


Worldwide 6,685,611 tonnes of tobacco is produced per year.
  • China is the largest tobacco producer in the world with 2,611,610 tonnes production per year.
  • India comes second with 804,454 tonnes yearly production.
  • China and India produce together more than 50 % of world's total tobacco.
  • With 769,801 tonnes of production per year, Brazil is the third largest producer of tobacco.
  • Zimbabwe is 4th with 257,764
  • United States of America, with 212,260 tonnes of production per year is ranked at 5.”

Of course, this was somewhat different in, say, XIX century but Cuba and Philippines had been major exporters even at that time and China started its growing around XVI century.

Plenty of places for Europe and the US to import tobacco from.

You'd probably see a big drop in tobacco imports during the GAW, certainly, and that probably gives you a generation that IOTL smoked quite a bit which ITTL doesn't, so the decline in tobacco use in the US maybe starts earlier than OTL, but I'm not sure exactly how big an effect that has. Maybe people start smoking doobies instead if you can't get tobacco from down South easily haha

Or import it. BTW, at least some sorts of the tobacco are easily grown even in a moderate climate: one of the few items with which there was hardly a problem during the RCW was makhorka, ), a coarse, strong type of tobacco (Nicotiana rustica), especially grown in Russia and Ukraine. The people had been routinely growing it in their vegetable gardens. Climate-wise a big chunk of the US would do. Taking into an account that its origin was either in Brazil or Mexico, there would be no need to sail across the Atlantic to get it and quite easy to grow it domestically. Quality would be lower but, judging by the stuff the Americans had been drinking during the Prohibition, the strength could easily replace quality.
Yeah, a trend towards longer combo posts is inevitable anyways just to better organize some of my thoughts and for pacing regardless
 
and a large amount of the pre-war tobacco growing area inside the United States (the counties on the west side of the Chesapeake south of Annapolis and Washington) will be under confederate control and even parts of the Eastern Shore will be disrupted as well. So a drop in Tobacco imports (which were probably already under pressure by those against the CSA) and internal production.

OTOH, I'm not sure in the end that the effort to reduce the diamonds bought from South Africa went anywhere, but the question is whether the post war Confederacy will be viewed significantly more favorably by the average USA citizen post war, the way that Mandela South Africa was. I expect *not*.

I know it is a joke, but Marijuana could have a *significantly* different path iTTL.
Just need to butterfly the production of Reefer Madness :p
Worldwide 6,685,611 tonnes of tobacco is produced per year.
  • China is the largest tobacco producer in the world with 2,611,610 tonnes production per year.
  • India comes second with 804,454 tonnes yearly production.
  • China and India produce together more than 50 % of world's total tobacco.
  • With 769,801 tonnes of production per year, Brazil is the third largest producer of tobacco.
  • Zimbabwe is 4th with 257,764
  • United States of America, with 212,260 tonnes of production per year is ranked at 5.”

Of course, this was somewhat different in, say, XIX century but Cuba and Philippines had been major exporters even at that time and China started its growing around XVI century.

Plenty of places for Europe and the US to import tobacco from.



Or import it. BTW, at least some sorts of the tobacco are easily grown even in a moderate climate: one of the few items with which there was hardly a problem during the RCW was makhorka, ), a coarse, strong type of tobacco (Nicotiana rustica), especially grown in Russia and Ukraine. The people had been routinely growing it in their vegetable gardens. Climate-wise a big chunk of the US would do. Taking into an account that its origin was either in Brazil or Mexico, there would be no need to sail across the Atlantic to get it and quite easy to grow it domestically. Quality would be lower but, judging by the stuff the Americans had been drinking during the Prohibition, the strength could easily replace quality.
I’m sure plenty of folks on the north bank of the Ohio will be growing tobacco ITTL.
Yeah, I'm thinking if you want a cigarette in the US you can find one even with the war. That said, it's probably a lot more expensive, not just with imports of raw crop going away but also the dirt-cheap machine-rolled Duke cigarettes (though the tariff war probably already drove those prices up even pre-9/9)
 
Just need to butterfly the production of Reefer Madness :p


Yeah, I'm thinking if you want a cigarette in the US you can find one even with the war. That said, it's probably a lot more expensive, not just with imports of raw crop going away but also the dirt-cheap machine-rolled Duke cigarettes (though the tariff war probably already drove those prices up even pre-9/9)
Sorry, but the machine-rolled cigarettes are not the cheapest option by far. To start with, papirosa is cheaper because it does not have a filter but even this is somewhat of a luxury item. For the really cheap stuff you just need tobacco (which you are growing in your garden) and a piece of a paper (newspaper will do). Millions (probably tens of millions) people had been doing that for many years. 😜
1670993511703.jpeg
 
The Ishii Maru Incident
"...some confusion to this day what exactly occurred at Canada Pacific Railroad's Pier A in Coal Harbour. Though Canadian immigration policy, most infamously the head tax, was set at the federal level, enforcement generally fell to a mix of provincial and federal officials with overlapping and oft-confused jurisdiction. In the socially and politically tense climate of 1914 Vancouver, this meant that enforcement and greeting these newcomers fell to local policemen and customs officers who were perhaps even more hostile to Asian Indian immigrants than federals who thought of India merely as some far-off exotic land. Though anti-Oriental agitation in Vancouver had previously largely been focused on the region's Chinese, the population of Japanese, Korean and particularly Sikh immigrants had boomed along with the city over the past decade, and "the Hindoo" (though few of the Punjabis in Vancouver were, in fact, Hindus) was as much a target of the large race riots in 1907, 1911 and 1912 as had been other "Asiatics." One thing that set Indians apart in particular was their reputation for political radicalism; unlike the Japanese and Koreans who often converted to Christianity and endeavored to assimilate, or the politically disorganized Chinese who typically kept to themselves in their enclaves, many of the Punjabis in British Columbia were educated and connected to a particular intellectual current throughout their diaspora, with the militantly revolutionary Ghadar Party that advocated an imminent and violent Ghadar, or revolt, first in Punjab and then to spread throughout India to secure the subcontinent's Swaraj, or independence from British rule. While Ghadar was becoming increasingly potent in Punjab proper, it was first and foremost a movement tied to radicalized and left-wing Punjabis on the North American West Coast, with its intellectual epicenter in San Francisco but increasingly in the socialist-friendly Northwest, such as in International Workers of the World strongholds like Seattle and now Vancouver, where many prominent Ghadarites had made a home and were eagerly anticipating the arrival of many of their countrymen.

The Ishii Maru was prevented from even tying up to the slip at first, kept 200 feet offshore as Canadian officials tried to decide what to do. Unlike the more bureaucratic American customs officials who were posted in Asian ports, the Canadian laws were more dependent on the cooperation of British officials in Hong Kong or Singapore, and how nearly four hundred Indians had slipped through the cracks to now arrive, packed tight aboard a Japanese cargo vessel, was a question vexing them. The federal government even got involved to debate next steps, with Whitney taking the pulse of Cabinet members on whether to seek a court opinion. There were a variety of problems at play that the ever-pragmatic Whitney had to consider, such as nervous cables from the India Office in London that communicated concerns about how handling the situation poorly could backfire in the subcontinent, but also public opinion in Vancouver. If the passengers of the Maru were allowed to disembark, their illegal gambit to immigrate to Canada would have worked, proving that Canadian immigration laws were not worth the paper they were printed on and presaging a rush of not just Indian but potentially East Asian immigrants overrunning British Columbia as the exclusion policy proved unenforceable - this was precisely the nightmare scenario ferociously Nativist western voters had feared for a generation.

Whitney's hand was forced before long as the long-serving and reformist Conservative Premier of British Columbia, Richard McBride, had gotten out ahead of his allies in Ottawa with a statement definitively ruling out any chance of the disembarkation of the people aboard the vessel. McBride had made a name for himself with a policy program of economically progressive reforms to stimulate his province's oft-volatile economy that included railroad construction, the establishment of a university, and a novel course of deficit reduction through spending cuts and tax raises, but had balanced this approach with a populist, nativist appeal demagoguing against Asian immigration. He was partially pushed into this position by the enormous local popularity of the "Vice Crusader" H.H. Stevens, who had parlayed his campaigns against opium dens, brothels and even ordinary taverns into serving as an MP for the city in Parliament, and was now thought to be looking for a more lucrative role either in British Columbia or Ottawa. Becoming the public face of the opposition to the Ishii Maru served his purposes very well and he quickly staged rallies and legal interventions to "keep the Hindoos on the water." In turn, local Punjabi immigrants began organizing their own "shore patrols" who started agitating and holding meetings to push for the boat to finally dock and resolve that if the Maru was not allowed to deposit its cargo, they would follow it and its passengers back to Punjab to instigate Ghadar. The circumstance of this one Japanese ship was now a red line for both sides from which they could not back down, the situation in the Burrard Inlet spiraling out of control as Ottawa and even the new Cecil government in London panicking as it tried to discern the path forward.

Onboard the Ishii Maru, in cramped conditions and frustrated with bobbing aimlessly offshore, the men started to find their patience wearing thin. On the morning of May 28, the Maru was brought up to the dock so it could be properly inspected after the Japanese government complained. A mutiny had already occurred onboard the boat, however, with several Ghadarites having relieved the Japanese captain of his command. When the ship touched to the dock and Canadian immigration officials led by Stevens and the intransigent chief officer RJ Reid attempted to board, they were rushed by the passengers, who also began pelting policemen down on the dock with pieces of coal and bricks from the ship's hold. Punjabi bystanders from the city's local community rushed out onto the dock to help their countrymen, and were immediately fired upon, as were men on the boat; the situation quickly descended into pandemonium as white Canadian dockworkers got wind of the situation and hurried down to Pier A to help. A full-blown riot on the docks and onboard the Maru erupted simultaneously. Twenty passengers died, as did four policemen and three dockworkers, while over a hundred total people were wounded. Dozens of Punjabis from both the vessel and Vancouver were arrested, with three shot outside the courthouse due to claims of resisting arrest. The night of the 28th was tense, but violence returned upon the news on the afternoon of the 29th that Reid had succumbed to his injuries in the crush aboard the Ishii Maru. On the steps of Vancouver General Hospital, where Reid had died, an injured and visibly shaken Stevens followed up the Premier's public call for calm with a fiery speech in which he denounced "our enemy within" and "this city's most savage element" and further elaborated that the "barbarism of the Panjab-man underlines why it is we must exclude them from our civilized shores."

Whether the ever-ambitious Stevens had intended to incite Vancouver's fourth major race riot in seven years is debatable, but the impact of one of Canada's most infamous polemics is without dispute. While the previous anti-Oriental race riots had managed to avoid any loss of life, the incident of the Ishii Maru had inflamed the opinion of the city's white majority into an all-out pogrom. Dominion Hall, a popular meeting place for the Punjabi assemblies of the prior weeks, was attacked during a meeting; six men were beaten to death and another five lynched outside. A further ten men and women were killed in Vancouver during a night of violent rioting in Punjabi-heavy boroughs, and dozens of businesses and homes destroyed, leaving hundreds Indo-Canadians homeless and destitute. Every man arrested for his behavior during the riot was eventually acquitted if charges were even brought, while seventeen Punjabis from the boat and Vancouver were eventually sentenced to die for their role in the events on Pier A while a further forty were deported back to India rather than imprisoned. As for the Ishii Maru itself, it was escorted out of Vancouver Harbour and back to Calcutta, where attempted arrests of Singh and other leaders aboard the vessel resulted in yet another riot started by the ship's unlucky and angry passengers, resulting in a further twenty-one deaths.

The Ishii Maru Affair is often cited on both sides of the Pacific Ocean as one of the most important events in Indian history, curious as it may be for that distinction to be levied upon an incident that occurred in Vancouver. The inflammation of Indian public opinion and spiking popularity of hardline Anglophobic sentiment, particularly Ghadarites in Punjab, would lead to the following year's Ghadar Mutiny and the beginning of the civil conflict in the Punjab; as for Canada, its impacts still reverberate today. Politically radical movements had found a fertile breeding ground in British Columbia on both left and right. H.H. Stevens was now a rising star to nativist Canadian Tory activists and following the death of James Whitney in September, his inclusion in Leighton McCarthy's Cabinet, even in junior portfolio, was seen as a necessary sop both to the grassroots and to McBride, who worried that Stevens wanted his job, and the "Vice Crusader's" demagogic brand of populist politics soon was finding purchase not just across the West but in Ottawa. [1] Punjabi-Canadians, meanwhile, to this day hold the event up as the formative experience of their community. Ghadarite publications did not cease but flourished even with attempted censorship rules, and suspected informants were murdered, as was British immigration official WC Hopkinson, to whom information had been passed on Ghadarites aboard Ishii Maru. Commemorations to the dead are held to this day both in Vancouver and in India, and indeed many leaders of the coming Mutiny were Vancouverites who had indeed meant it when they resolved to return to the mother country in the event of the Ishii Maru being denied her dock...

- Faultlines: The Complicated History of Canada's Ethnic Tensions [2]

"...anger. The Viceregal office, already reeling for over a year since the assassination of Hardinge and following crackdown on Indian political activity, was terrified by the rapidness with which the Swarajis were able to organize. Intellectual and elite opinion, which had previously viewed Punjabi agitation as a distraction, was firmly sympathetic to Singh's cause upon his return and the men slain in Vancouver and at Budge Budge were immediately martyrs. More than anything, the event had a huge impact inside Congress itself, where the hardline Garam Dal faction was suddenly re-ascendant after years of tension and equanimity with the "soft" of Naram Dal, who were done no favors with Gokhale's death less than nine months later in February 1915, leaving the path for Tilak and his fellow "hots" clear to fully take over Congress's internal machinery to the dismay of the moderates..."

- Seeking Swaraj: The Struggle for Indian Independence

"...that even moderates such as Motilal Nehru had begun to concede to reality made an impression on the elite students at Presidency. It was the first time in his life that Subhas had felt any stirring of nationalist feeling, with his privileged background within the bhadrilak elite having previously inured him from such passions. Ishii Maru changed everything, though. "I was not a Punjabi by birth, but in the summer of 1914, especially as one traveled through the Raj on break from studies, one realized that all politically aware Indians were suddenly Punjabi by sentiment," he wrote years later. Indeed, upon returning to school after his long and strange journey searching for a spiritual guru that same year, the debates on campus had taken on an entirely new tenor, one in which the well-educated minds of Bengal's wealthiest men had suddenly lost much, though certainly not yet all, of their sympathies for Britain..."

- Bengal Tiger: Subhas Chandra Bose and India [3]

[1] Or, the "Orange Crush Gets Worse"
[2] A lot of this is basically just lifted from OTL's similarly-important Komagata Maru incident, just with the name of the ship changed and in my typical fashion making things way bloodier/worse for everyone
[3] And so we are introduced for the first time to a very important character in Cincoverse history
 
Just need to butterfly the production of Reefer Madness :p

Honestly, it would be relatively easy to avoid Marijuana Prohibition; though the crackdown does fit the general theme of Prohibition during that area. First, Hearst doesn't have his newspaper empire, nor even the bully pulpit at the time. Seondly, Anslinger probably doesn't end up in a position of authority in this postwar world. This doesn't completely take care of the social forces that lead to the law in the first place (Cannibis' association with Mexicans and Black Jazz players didn't help matters; though Mexican immigration is much lower in the ATL, and though we are seeing a Great Migration through the lens of refugees, I'm really not sure if Jazz is even a thing in the ATL - though with thefre community of New Orleans I'd lean towards it is - or if it takes off as it does in OTL. So much of it's initial spread was through Freedmen communities up and down the Mississippi - and that likely won't be a thing here), but it's a huge start.

And the removal of Cannibis prohibition in the US also deals a deathblow to that policy throughout the world as many of those laws seems to have been inspired by the US (though correct me if I'm wrong, in case we have a historian of drug laws in this thread!) Which, culturally and legally, changes a lot!

I also wonder how Prohibition is going to function in the Cinqo-verse. It's been hinted that it's more limited than in OTL, and we know that the Dems are largely in charge during the 1920s. Since the Dems DO - contrary to popular belie - have a Prohibition wing, but it is limited size, it's unlikely that the Dems would initiatite such a law. So this leads to two conclusions: 1) the Liberals, in their waning days of relevance, pass Prohibition but the Dems put only a token effort into enforcing it during their rule or 2) the Dems don't push for Prohibition and leave it up to the states. A great number of states had prohibition in the years leading up to national Prohibition (33, before January 1, 1920), so removing Federal Prohibition doesn't equate to no Prohibition at all. But state-based would be fascinating as it could lead to very real stresses between the states ad even more social chaos (Oh, North Dakota has prohibition? Thats so cute. Real shame about those liquor distribution centers opening up just across the Red River in western Minnesota, hmmmmm? Though, ahving said that, both ND _AND_ Western Minnesota had prohibiton by that point, but you gather what I'm saying :D )


Yeah, I'm thinking if you want a cigarette in the US you can find one even with the war. That said, it's probably a lot more expensive, not just with imports of raw crop going away but also the dirt-cheap machine-rolled Duke cigarettes (though the tariff war probably already drove those prices up even pre-9/9)

Likely. Even in OTL there were efforts to grow tobacco as far north as Southeastern Wisconsin during this time - and some of those farms lasted into the efirst half of the 20th century. But i would assume that tobacco is more expensive than OTL, and it's association with the Confederacy (even if not all, or even most, tobacco comes from the Confederacy) may make it more subseptible to moral pressure from certain interest groups. If nothing else, I'd expect that the politics and growth of the industry is different in OTL.
 
Last edited:
Great update!

[3] And so we are introduced for the first time to a very important character in Cincoverse history
Very interesting… Bose died relatively young (48) in a plane crash while attempting to flee to Japan in August 1945 as his puppet master fell apart. We could see a LOT more out of him for a LOT longer than OTL save any assassinations…
 
Just need to butterfly the production of Reefer Madness :p


Yeah, I'm thinking if you want a cigarette in the US you can find one even with the war. That said, it's probably a lot more expensive, not just with imports of raw crop going away but also the dirt-cheap machine-rolled Duke cigarettes (though the tariff war probably already drove those prices up even pre-9/9)
Have the director Louis J. Gasnier stay in France?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top