Children of the Bloody Queen: A Tudor Timeline
- Thread starter EternalMadness1997
- Start date
Twins would be a nice event for Mary, and she will definitely see herself as being blessed by God. I'm actually wondering whether she would be as hardline on the Reformation ITTL, since IOTL she felt that God was displeased with her, so she burned and persectuted more Protestants.
Admittedly I have opted to not really address it ITTL (for reasons of it kinda prevents the premise) so yeah this may be a timeline where she either didn't get it, or where it didn't prevent her from concieving a child. Not to say she doesn't have any health issues at all, but hey the point of divergence of her not getting the ovarian cancer genes would not have really caused much change in history at all up to this point so....it's reasonable to skip it.
Oh I had no idea about that little thing about twins - thanks for the biology lesson!
Mary certainly would love to have twins, knocking (her sister) Elizabeth down to 4th in line should all three of her kids be healthy.
Of course, her mother did reach Menopause in her 40's, and Mary is approaching that decade fast; and obviously she would need Philip the Elder/Of Spain to be in England or herself to be in Spain (by that point he will be King of Spain) in order to concieve them in the first place.
Great ideas, thanks for the suggestions! Obviously my unwillingness to give spoilers means I have to not say what I will go with, but I definitely see her naming at least one if not the first of her potential daughters Catherine; and for whom she's named would be obvious.
Mary would be over the moon if they were to happen, as would Philip! The Protestants, not so much.
True, so maybe 2~ish Kids in total then?
That is true! Though it is possible she would view the birth of a son as a sign that she should keep going as it is, since God would be "pleased with what she's doing". Though, she could calm herself down some too. Could go either way if you ask me, though what might not is the fate of Thomas Cranmer - the man who annulled/"divorced" her parents and as such, caused much of the misery she'd experienced up to this point. Would the birth of her son persuade her to spare him? Or would the memory of his involvement in the "Great Matter" stay her on the path of vengeance? It's hard even for me to decide his fate.
Most likely, between her age and the likelihood of her menpause coming up like with her mother she shouldn't expect to have that big a brood. Honestly had she married a man who actually stayed in England more (or loved her - he's no Henry VIII but her king clearly doesn't feel for her as strongly she does him) she might be able to hope for a larger number (maybe 4-ish at least).
Just having at least 2 would be enough. An heir and a spare (even if the spare is a daughter) would be more than sufficient to ensure her policies would be carried out. After all, the whole reason why she was considered to be a pretty ineffectual monarch historically was because her reign was shockingly short. (5 years, made worse by the fact that she died aged 42) And it's kind of a shame really, because a lot of the policies that made Elizabeth a fondly remembered monarch (fiscal reform, naval expansion and colonial exploration) did have its start with Mary I. While it's still likely that it could end up being the case, perhaps another legacy that could stick is England mending fences with Papacy rather than confirming in its Protestantism.
Ah, yes, Mary will have the perfect number of 2.5 kids.
On a serious note, 2-3 kids does seem like the most likely amount, especially since IOTL she had at least two false pregnancies, one in Sep 1554-Jul 1555 and another which ended in Mar 1558(can't find start date for this one, but roughly around Philip's OTL return to England in 1557). If the second pregnancy is successful, or Mary's conception schedule is moved forwards(Philip returns early to visit his new son?)then we might see three kids-one single pregnancy and one doubles, or three singles.
Cranmer is definitely a goner-Mary remembers all too well the 1533-1536 years, and she's not going to forget that, son or no. Even without the Great Matter, Cranmer was Archbishop of Canterbury during Edward VI's reign and implemented most of his religious reforms. He was also by Nov 1553 already condemned to death for treason; the execution was only delayed so that he could be tried for heresy as well. By Apr-May 1555 after Mary's son has been born, he's already in Bocardo Prison awaiting the heresy trial, and Mary won't pardon him for sure, so it'll go ahead and he'll be found guilty of heresy as well. The main issue is his six recantations, of only which the last two were full concessions. Mary did postpone his burning after the fifth(and first full)recantion, so whether she continues with postponing, accepts the recantation, or continues with the burning is the main question. Of course, if you can't decide, there's always the random number generator to decide for you!
I would like if she had the twin girls first, then a son second. A fake out would be fun lol
I wonder how she would have reacted-two girls is two heirs, but they're female heirs; that would be an interesting thing to read!
I have also just realized my statement about twins and single vs. doubles pregnancies sounded like an announcement of tennis matches...
Girls can inherit both England and the Netherlands (and in the worst case also Philip’s other lands) while Maria and Maximilian had a lot of sons so Philip (who has already a son as heir for his lands) would NOT be (too) displeased for an healthy girl (or two). What he want and need is an Habsburg heir(ess) for England and a girl is good enough
Tests of Faith & The Second Coming
1555 - 1556: TESTS OF FAITH
With the birth of Philip, Prince of Wales, Queen Mary could finally rest well at night knowing that Elizabeth would not become queen after her. So long of course that her son remained healthy; after all her brother had died very surprisingly after a life being in decent health, and that's not to mention her uncle Arthur who was her beloved mother's first husband. Though being a reigning queen limited the time she could spend with her prized prince, Mary spared no expense in keeping in touch with his nurses - constantly corresponding with them to keep up to date with the health, wellbeing and care of her son. The mere thought of him being poisoned by some protestant noble or 'bishop' before or even after her reign could make her spiral into a panic and dash to where her infant boy was - only to find him safe in the care of the women nursing him. Even her own servants where concerned, saying to her at many times something along the lines of "Your Majesty, you need not worry about the young Prince of Wales; he is very much in fine health and far from the grasp of heretic lords"To which the Queen would reply; "'Tis only a mother's concern; so long as the very lot of you keep up the good work."
They knew well to do as her majesty 'suggested'.
Truth be told, outside of the care for her son the state of the world as well as the realm was perhaps the greatest test to her faith and will that the lord could have devised.
It started not long after Philip, Prince of Wales, had been born. Pope Marcellus III died virtually the day right afterwards, and come the end of May was replaced with his holiness Paul IV. The problem with Paul, for her majesty, was that he quite disliked Lord Cardinal Reginald Pole as well as the Spanish - being a staunch ally to the French. For quite obvious reasons, this meant that Mary would not receive the support of her righteous efforts that she would have liked. Also not helping her was Paul's insistence that Pole be recalled to Rome, something which Mary always refused - Pole did take a more 'humanist' and soft-hearted approach to heresy, though he was also a supporter of the so-called 'Spanish Marriage' and as such a key asset to her majesty. Besides, should that leach Thomas Cranmer be soon dead, Mary would see to it that Pole would be the next archbishop of Canterbury. Something which she had been longing to see since she came to power.
There's also the fact that this heresy was only worsened by England's growing economic concerns - her father and brother both squandered the coffers once filled shrewdly to the brim by her grandfather, though admittedly it was of no fault of theirs that the Antwerp cloth trade fell so sharply in decline - leaving many along the east coast with reduced if any at all income. Mary did best she could to relieve this situation, though the east and particularly the southeast was also a stronghold of heretics - which did indeed get in the way of her efforts there. Her majesty also knew all too well that the revenue collection system did not match at all with the modernity of the English state. In fact it was very possible that William the first himself had been using this same tax system, while the realm of Mary was supposedly to be a contemporary renaissance state. Now that her marriage and succession was secured, she could more adequately focus on amending this - though it would of course take some time to implement. Time that she hoped she had.
On the upside, her joy would be restored come September of 1555 - news had soon reached her that Thomas Cranmer's heresy trial had concluded, and much like she had suspected he was found properly guilty of both that along with his prior charges of treason. How excited did she await the day of his execution, having the man who had so ruined her life for an agonizing amount of decades be sent to the fire. However, the queen's thirst for revenge was blockaded when news further reached her of him recanting his heresy - no doubt in an effort to save his own skin, the queen thought. Though he obviously figured it would buy him precious time or get him out of his predicament immediately, Mary would have none of it. Having his execution be postponed was honestly an insult to her - in fact she would have rushed it sooner had it not been for the news of her Lord Chancellor Stephen Gardiner's death on the 12th of November. From what the Queen had been informed, he had simply fallen suddenly ill and quickly thereafter perished, leaving this world to be with God. Gardiner had been a loyal servant and virtually right hand to the queen, having been one of her chief advisors, councilors and even had been the man to place the crown upon her head as well as preside over the christening of her dear Prince of Wales. That's not to mention the part he played in bringing England back into communion with Rome and getting the revival of the heresy laws to pass through the House of Lords; Mary had truly lost a trusted ally. Though she could not dwell on his death for long, his seat to fast be filled. Ultimately, the queen appointed Nicholas Heath - the archbishop of York. This selection was largely made at the advise of Cardinal Reginald Pole, who assured her majesty that a man such as Heath would best serve the English people during this time; though her majesty had some misgivings of him, having been aware that he didn't think highly of the maligned Spanish Marriage. Even so, Heath held no ill-will towards the infant prince and made that clear to the queen upon their first meeting at her court, and so she settled for him.
As 1555 turned into 1556, her majesty was assured that this coming year of the lord was to be one of her best. To her and the rest of England's joy, Philip was showing so signs of poor health. He was only but a little under a year old, but whenever his mother laid eyes upon him she already saw in him the mighty catholic ruler she was confident he would become.
These were interesting times for the rest of the family too as well, as on the 12th January word had reached Mary that her cousin and father-in-law, Charles V - Holy Roman Emperor & King of Spain, had abdicated from his Spanish throne. As her husband was his eldest son, he promptly succeeded him and became King of Spain and by extension she became his consort - her husband being proclaimed as such in Brussels. Though Mary would have loved to be present with her 'beloved', she alas could not attend - not only was she barred from it anyway by the Spanish Marriage treaty, but she would have ultimately decided against it anyway, her responsibilities and love for England outweighing her love for her husband. Philip the elder seemed to understand as well - he never did seem to desire Mary at his side as much she did him. It did pain her to have him so far away from her side, but at least she had the presence of their son to alleviate the pain.
Speaking of alleviating pain, this year was also to be the year that something long over due finally took place. The downfall of Thomas Cranmer. he hadn't ceased his recantations at all - from what Mary had heard, he put her and all of England through about five or so, each causing a postponement of his execution. Evidently ending her parents' rightful and lawful marriage and spreading heresy into the realm simply wasn't enough for him, he had to deny Mary even the deliverance of proper justice. Just looking at a mere portrait of him made the queen near burst a blood vessel, her infamous scowl returning to her face in full force. Not a single day went by that she didn't think about what that man did to her on that fateful day in the year of the lord 1533. If it wasn't for him, she would not have witnessed her mother in such terrible heartbreak nor been separated from her, and her father would not have courted with heresy. Following his fifth recantation however, he would receive no further quarter from her majesty. Even though he would recant a sixth time, he would not be pardoned nor postponed any longer - nor would she switch to beheading. No, she wanted the man to feel as she had felt. She wanted him to burn.
On the 21st of March, 1556 the queen received her long awaited wish. The man who had tormented her for so long was finally taken out of prison, to see to it that he was righteously put to burn. The only regret she had was that she didn't attend it personally - though from the letter describing the event she was sent she may not have been as pleased with it as she had thought she would. The treasonous heretic had recited one last recantation just as he was to be burned, only to at the last moment reverse his words and denounce both the catholic faith, his holiness the pope and all of his prior recantations; even after he was then pulled away to where Latimer & Ridley had been burned in October of 1555, he continued to insult Mary by ensuring his right hand was the first part of him to burn - the very "unworthy" hand that had signed the recantations. Hearing of this as she read from her servants' recounts of it, Mary shook her head in fury. The man couldn't simply let justice be served, he had to make a grand spectacle out of it. No doubt he was trying to make saving the souls of England harder on her majesty, As much as her government published his recantations, the news of what had actually happened became common knowledge nevertheless - there had evidently been a bigger and more talkative crowd than anticipated it seems; however, it was thanks to his prior recantations that the very protestants he burned alive for found difficulty in using it for their own ends as well; and with the Prince of Wales remaining healthy through his first birthday it would seem to the queen that whatever game Cranmer thought fit to play didn't work.
Further cementing March of 1556 as one of Mary's personal favorite months, she was very happy to see that young Prince Philip was beginning to speak his first words as he approached 11 months of age. It wasn't much in the way of actual language just yet, but she couldn't help form a genuine smile on her face whenever she heard his voice beginning to forge words. Indeed, Mary Tudor cracking smiles. Perhaps some of her servants did think she had become some other person.
Nevertheless, the man who had caused her so much strife throughout her life was now dead and gone - no doubt rotting and burning in the depths of hell for both treason and heresy.
Also occurring in March was something most pressing - after her husband had negotiated peace with the French in February, the French Ambassador to England, Antoine de Noailles, was found guilty of a plot to assemble an invasion force from within France- spearheaded by Sir Henry Dudley - a second cousin of the executed John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland. Needless to say, Mary was absolutely furious to learn of this conspiracy. She wasn't told if this conspiracy was to replace her with her son and surround him with a protestant council, or if it was to replace her with Elizabeth. Either way, she demanded immediately "All those who think to commit such high treason against her majesty their queen, will be shown my firm and unconditional justice!" Of course, that was the 'official' statement of what she had said, after she had gotten done furiously cursing as though she had been overtaken by her father. As Dudley remained in France, he shall consider himself lucky for the time being. Those of his conspirators who were in England were swiftly rounded up and given the proper punishments for treason by the end of the year.
The rest of the year 1556 would not be kind to her majesty though; just as she was pleased over the spring by the downfall of Cranmer and the continued good health of her son came the news that the harvest had yet again failed following a rather grueling summer; though Mary herself had no control over this, she knew who did. Ever the ardent prayer, she did not understand if the lack of a successful harvest was God being displeased with her reign or if it was merely a test of her willpower & faith. She knew that unless there was favorable weather soon, the people would likely revolt again - no matter much relief she gave to the poor. She was sure however that once proper economic reform could be implemented, that the livelihood of these downtrodden people would improve; for now she was fortunate to keep England floating away from being too seriously indebted despite this setback.
Speaking of rebellious threats, Mary couldn't help but still have in the back of her mind thoughts of her heretical half-sister, the daughter of the 'great whore'. Though she had been present for Prince Philip's birth and christening, and since released from the tower, Mary still effectively had her under house arrest at her household - that old Hatfield Palace to be precise. Elizabeth herself had been quite quiet since the Prince of Wales' christening, seemingly content with remaining at her home with her staff and whomever else might regularly be there. The fact that Wyatt's Rebellion had intended to place her on the throne still remained firmly in her majesty's memory, and even with the Prince of Wales now ahead of her she still remained immediately behind him in the succession - and given the quick demise of Edward VI, Mary perhaps would never feel completely safe from the threat of Elizabeth gaining power after her.
That said, Elizabeth seemed to make herself scarce in terms of things relevant to her majesty. There had been little no correspondence to Mary from the Hatfield palace at all, not even from one of her half-sister's maids or other such staff. Though it did make Mary at least somewhat suspicious, she could not act without reason. So long as her sister carried on keeping herself so silent, the queen would do nothing to her.
1557: THE SECOND COMING
The year of the lord 1557 would prove to be one of Mary's most pivotal years to date. For one, the young Prince of Wales had survived his second year of life and was fast approaching the time in which he was beginning to speak proper sentences - though for now he could mostly put together sentences of only about two words. As adorably endearing it was, soon would come the time that his proper education began - just as her mother had taught her, Mary anticipated her son to learn both English as well as Spanish at the very least, alongside an obligatory learning of Latin. In fact, she was more than willing to soon teach her son herself, should time and her other duties allow it.
Though that was not quite what made this year important in Mary's mind. What did was when come March, a certain Spanish ship arrived in the ports of London - bringing with it not only a significant troupe of Spaniards but also her dear Husband, the elder Philip - now King Philip II of Spain. Delighted was Mary when she yet again had her husband present alongside her within the borders of her realm; even the younger Philip seemed giddy about it, though it may well have been him reacting to his mother's sudden joy. He even recognized the elder Philip as his "papa", having been seen the portraits of him of course. While Philip did finally get some time with his son, even staying over the spring and into the summer to observe his second birthday, it was clear that was not the primary reason for his visit to England; before long he spoke with his wife about a desire of his to get her support in his renewed war against France - indeed, the unsteady peace from just a year prior had unsurprisingly been short lived.
Though Mary personally wanted to join up arms against the French in support of her husband, she was legally bound by the compromise of the Spanish Marriage Treaty, and would no doubt be vehemently rejected by parliament. Even more so, her councilors advised strictly against it - after her brother's reign and the recent lackluster harvests, it was feared England simply didn't have the capability to wage war against the French - Mary very well understood her husband's frustrations with these 'arguments'. However, at the very least the queen did convince her king to yet again, reluctantly bed her.
For a moment, all seemed to be going quite well for her majesty and her king, when in April news had reached them of a most surprising event - some man had been arrested alongside over 30 men by the Henry Neville, the Earl of Westmorland, having arrived from France with support of the latter's government. Much to Mary's fury, she learned that this Thomas Stafford - a nephew of Cardinal Pole. The man had been trying to stir up a reprisal of Wyatt's rebellion from what Mary had heard, and was arrested after speaking & committing treason not only against the queen and her king, but also the prince of wales. It was unclear in the moment whether this was to impose Elizabeth on the people, though it was posited to Mary that Stafford may well have wanted himself on the throne. Lucky it was for both Cardinal Pole and Elizabeth that no evidence of involvement with this incident could be found with them; for the queen was absolutely enraged by this act. Naturally, Thomas Stafford and all who supported his petty rebellion were locked away in the tower - awaiting their truly Tudor fashioned beheadings. As for the war, with the confirmation that the French had directly supported this incident, there was very little parliament nor the council could do - the queen's hand was forced, and she agreed with her husband to declare war against the French.
Pleased, at least in that his goal was successful, Philip returned to his court in Spain come June. No sooner than the early onset of July did Mary feel a certain sensation in her body that she had felt when the younger Philip had first been conceived - she was again with child, indeed in the midst of war. As joy an excitement yet again overtook her majesty at the realization, she couldn't help but equate this with meaning God was yet again shining on her reign - and just as much perhaps he had blessed her war effort as well.
OOC - Yes I know what you're thinking with the title here. Stop it. All of you.
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You can't stop it hehehe.
Still a great read overall, can't wait to see the developments over Phil Jr. and Lizzy.
*snickers loudly* No.
But great chapter! Cranmer, I see, did not inspire quite the same sense of martyrdom this time round, and Mary is still going to war with France. I wonder whether she'll lose Calais this time round. Nice to see Baby Phil growing up nicely and healthily, and Elizabeth appears to be fairly content for now in Hatfield. If the war with France goes better ITTL and they can maybe get an enlargement of the Pale of Calais, Mary would definitely be over the moon.
Ehm, Calais here is already sort of “enlarged“ as baby Philip is the heir of all the Burgundian inheritance (who are continental lands who share a border with Calais)
My money is on Philip getting a little sister called Catherine, of course, and if paranoia doesn’t get the best of her Elizabeth waiting on Catherine like Mary was forced to with Elizabeth
Ah, yeah, I forgot about that. Does Philip Jr's inheritance of it affect the aforementioned Antwerp cloth trade?
I never thought about Elizabeth waiting on baby Catherine, but I still don't think Mary feels Elizabeth's proved her loyalty enough to be let near her daughter...
Well obviously the next post will confirm the next child! As for Elizabeth, yeah, I dunno. She did let her sister witness the birth and christening though, but I don't know about letting her be all too involved in the raising process. Mary in general goes back and forth on hating Lizzie and being chill with her it's hard to know with her majesty lol. Honestly so long as Lizzie just stays vibing at Hatfield she's fine.
Honestly knowing her she's probably enjoying good art and/or books and chilling with Kat Ashley. It's tempting to have her do more....but her doing nothing is basically keeping her alive so....yeah.
Indeed - though it could still be lost/occupied to the French in this coming war, as it was IOTL. Which would certainly hush the celebrations of Mary's upcoming birth. Though, if it was lost, would be a justification for a future war (unless the peace treaty just gives it back to England).
As Isabella said, Philip's inheritance already enlarges things quite a bit! Though it is true that the "great dream" so to speak would be completely conquering all of France to create the hypothetical "dual monarchy", but....that would be a rather difficult affair to happen through war....and they did take 100 years to try just that and ended up failing so....yeah.....
As for the fate of Calais, even if it is lost, getting it back could be a goal in a future war.
As for Cranmer yeah....he hurt Mary too much for her to just let him go. I'm still on the fence about whether or not the burnings are still happening as IOTL, but I imagine important figures like him would still burn. It's kind of like, on one hand IOTL she amped it up after her first phantom pregnancy, but it's just as possible if she had a child it'd be seen as a sign to keep going God approves so....yeah
.I was on the fence about the Stafford plot too, at first thought it could be butterflied (which it could) but looking it up, it was more pertaining to the Spanish Marriage than her religion, and reportedly wasn't to impose Lizzie onto the throne (though it would be reasonable Mary would briefly assume that) so I figured it could still happen. I imagine Stafford would just add some lines to his men about the Prince of Wales being more Spaniard than Englishman or something (or something along those lines).
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