Children of the Bloody Queen: A Tudor Timeline

[EternalMadness1997]

Well, Elisabeth can very well marry don Carlos (as was planned) and Henry II dying for the same accident in the same tournament as celebrations for a wedding between Elisabeth and don Carlos would be comparable to the OTL ones. The thing who change most is Calais, who at this point is less interesting for France than OTL (as ATL Calais instead of being the last continental possession of England would be at the border of them).

Well, they did occupy Calais in the previous post, but of course there is always the chance of getting it back later. Especially after Philip the younger's potential inheritance. Or even restored in a peace treaty if there is enough reason to. I had them take it because, I mean, England still has the whole bad weather with failed harvests and weakened but recovering economy going on, which Mary even IOTL was warned about. So there was really no stopping it. The weather can't really be butterflied. I wish there was a record of the weather consistency during this time though, so I could know specifically when to mention it started improving.

Obviously yes Mary would have an easier time if this were a "Henry VIII accepted not having a son" (Difficulty: Nigh Impossible) or a "Henry VIII & Catherine of Aragon's son lived" TL....but alas, it's not. Time travel would be ASB so just gotta keep trucking through the unfavorable weather.

 

[EternalMadness1997]

And the plot thickens.

ElizabethBowl for the hand of Emmanuel Philibert, will it be Tudor or Valois? The fight of the century!

Yes indeedy

IOTL the proposal of Elizabeth to Emmanuel Philibert was...obviously, a nothingburger. Here, it may still be or may not be.

 

[King of Danes]

Small mistake: The title of Princess Royal was based on the French title given to the oldest unmarried daughter of the French king, Madame Royale, and the French title wasn’t created until the reign of Henri IV. The title “Princess Royal” first came to Britain when Henrietta Maria wanted to imitate the French tradition. It’s therefore quite unlikely that young Catherine would be called Princess Royal. She would just be Princess Catherine

 

[Issei Uzumaki]

I swear it was France when I typed that...damn errors that only get noticed after the thing is already posted. smh.

well at least I know I'm not crazy, about this anyways haha.

 

[Prince of Permsia]

Philip will be obliged to keep the war going for the sake of Clais or else risk loosing a lot of influence in England.

 

[ranichi17]

Would Mary still be called the Bloody ITTL? IOTL it only really came about through later Elizabethan and Jacobean propaganda, and her policies weren't really as bad as other Catholic rulers in the continent have been doing (*cough* the Inquisition *cough* St. Bartholomew's Massacre).

Also, Mary wouldn't have been able to attend the proclamation in Brussels either way. There was a stipulation in their marriage contract that forbids Philip from taking Mary or their future offspring out of England.

(side note, can we have a bigger font next time please? i'm loving this tl so far but not so much the headaches from squinting at the text )

 

[EternalMadness1997]

​

Would Mary still be called the Bloody ITTL? IOTL it only really came about through later Elizabethan and Jacobean propaganda, and her policies weren't really as bad as other Catholic rulers in the continent have been doing (*cough* the Inquisition *cough* St. Bartholomew's Massacre).

Also, Mary wouldn't have been able to attend the proclamation in Brussels either way. There was a stipulation in their marriage contract that forbids Philip from taking Mary or their future offspring out of England.

(side note, can we have a bigger font next time please? i'm loving this tl so far but not so much the headaches from squinting at the text )

Ah yes, Ithen I imagine knowing Mary's love for Philip the conversation would've been:

"Oh how I wish I could be with my dear king as he's crowned..."

Heath or any other councillor - "Your majesty, that would break the terms of the marriage treaty."

"Oh....that's right..." *sighs*


And yeah, that's not to mention Philip the younger (he'd probably be listed as Philip I of England, completely ignoring his father's consortship) would probably not take kindly to his mother being insulted. Still, it makes a good title so.....


Also sure, since you bring it up. I was using the smaller text size for aesthetic reasons anyway

 

[EternalMadness1997]

Small mistake: The title of Princess Royal was based on the French title given to the oldest unmarried daughter of the French king, Madame Royale, and the French title wasn’t created until the reign of Henri IV. The title “Princess Royal” first came to Britain when Henrietta Maria wanted to imitate the French tradition. It’s therefore quite unlikely that young Catherine would be called Princess Royal. She would just be Princess Catherine

Ah! Thank you, I'll make sure to edit the post immediately. Was half tempted to make her be given Duchess of York title to highlight that Mary does feel she could become a ruler in her own right given Edward VI's surprise death, but opted not to because there's no precedent for it even in Mary's father's time so...yeah.

 

[isabella]

Would Mary still be called the Bloody ITTL? IOTL it only really came about through later Elizabethan and Jacobean propaganda, and her policies weren't really as bad as other Catholic rulers in the continent have been doing (*cough* the Inquisition *cough* St. Bartholomew's Massacre).

Also, Mary wouldn't have been able to attend the proclamation in Brussels either way. There was a stipulation in their marriage contract that forbids Philip from taking Mary or their future offspring out of England.

(side note, can we have a bigger font next time please? i'm loving this tl so far but not so much the headaches from squinting at the text )

​

Ah yes, Ithen I imagine knowing Mary's love for Philip the conversation would've been:

"Oh how I wish I could be with my dear king as he's crowned..."

Heath or any other councillor - "Your majesty, that would break the terms of the marriage treaty."

"Oh....that's right..." *sighs*


And yeah, that's not to mention Philip the younger (he'd probably be listed as Philip I of England, completely ignoring his father's consortship) would probably not take kindly to his mother being insulted. Still, it makes a good title so.....


Also sure, since you bring it up. I was using the smaller text size for aesthetic reasons anyway

That do NOT mean who Mary is forbidden to go abroad for a short period, specially in the Netherlands (who technically are part of her domains) if she want. What the marriage contract forbidden was most likely Philip’s relocation of the permanent residence of Mary and their children outside England (and was probably directed more against Spain than Low Countries).

 

[Prince of Permsia]

Mary loved Philip. But she was Henry VIII's daughter. She would not compromise English interests or her own for the sake of Philip, no matter how much she loved him.

 

[EternalMadness1997]

Mary loved Philip. But she was Henry VIII's daughter. She would not compromise English interests or her own for the sake of Philip, no matter how much she loved him.

That do NOT mean who Mary is forbidden to go abroad for a short period, specially in the Netherlands (who technically are part of her domains) if she want. What the marriage contract forbidden was most likely Philip’s relocation of the permanent residence of Mary and their children outside England (and was probably directed more against Spain than Low Countries).

Which is of course, a good thing.
Much as she may wish for a more 'traditional' marriage, it'd still be for the good of the realm.

I'll edit the sentence a little.

 

[GrandMaster]

Dem Habsburgs are at it again, expanding their influence, first they got the Holy Roman Empire, then they got Spain, now they got England. Aye dios mio, when will it end?

 

[Guatemalan Revolutionary]

Dem Habsburgs are at it again, expanding their influence, first they got the Holy Roman Empire, then they got Spain, now they got England. Aye dios mio, when will it end?

Probably never.

 

[EternalMadness1997]

Random but any suggestions for who Reginald Pole's successor might be? Should I choose to have him die on schedule in 1558, or relatively soon considering he's approaching 60 and it's the 16th Century. It's hard for me to track potential candidates down, I think Nicholas Heath is already an archbishop of York, so....probably should be someone else? My first pick would be William Allen, but it seems he wasn't a high enough rank at the time (unless he would be?)

 

[FalconHonour]

Random but any suggestions for who Reginald Pole's successor might be? Should I choose to have him die on schedule in 1558, or relatively soon considering he's approaching 60 and it's the 16th Century. It's hard for me to track potential candidates down, I think Nicholas Heath is already an archbishop of York, so....probably should be someone else? My first pick would be William Allen, but it seems he wasn't a high enough rank at the time (unless he would be?)

Gardiner would be my pick, if he's not dead...

 

[EternalMadness1997]

Gardiner would be my pick, if he's not dead...

Alas, he is

 

[TheLionOfJudah]

Hope this timeline isn't done permanently, it's really good.

 

[EternalMadness1997]

Hope this timeline isn't done permanently, it's really good.

Oh don't worry, I want to update it! I just got overwhelmed with other things and stuck on the issue of whether or not (or how) there could be an attempt to retake Calais in the midst of the ongoing war haha. IOTL it doesn't seem like the concept of that was even on the table there was like, very few battles of the war with an article after that. But of course, IOTL there was no continuation of Philip's line in England. It's basically either will the older Phillip bother to try lifting the occupation or will he ultimately leave it for his son to try and do?

I'm sorry for yet again taking a while between updates.

 

[TheLionOfJudah]

Oh don't worry, I want to update it! I just got overwhelmed with other things and stuck on the issue of whether or not (or how) there could be an attempt to retake Calais in the midst of the ongoing war haha. IOTL it doesn't seem like the concept of that was even on the table there was like, very few battles of the war with an article after that. But of course, IOTL there was no continuation of Philip's line in England. It's basically either will the older Phillip bother to try lifting the occupation or will he ultimately leave it for his son to try and do?

I'm sorry for yet again taking a while between updates.

No it's completely ok I understand having to delay a TL because of other stuff, you have no need to apologize I was just wondering.

But if you'd like my two cents I'd say that it should fall to Philip the Younger to take over Calais rather than his father, since I don't think Philip the Elder would care enough about taking it over until like the French Wars of Religion, and by that point he's already old as hell and close to dead.

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

No it's completely ok I understand having to delay a TL because of other stuff, you have no need to apologize I was just wondering.

But if you'd like my two cents I'd say that it should fall to Philip the Younger to take over Calais rather than his father, since I don't think Philip the Elder would care enough about taking it over until like the French Wars of Religion, and by that point he's already old as hell and close to dead.

Except by the start of the French Wars of Religion, Philip was about 35. Granted as you say, intervention was far off and by the time Philip the Elder would care enough, he would be close to dead.

That being said, with England, and likely Scotland, remaining Catholic, I wonder how that will affect the Protestant's fortunes in the French Wars of Religion.