AHC: Peerless Air Ministry

[Mr Carrot]

I think numbers peaked at around 350/400k during the Blitz but a lot of these were TA etc. Still a big manpower sink.

I would say that despite the poor levels of k/d it played an important role in disrupting attacking formations, forcing enemy action to night time, impacts on training and morale etc.

 

[Jellico]

All this talk of German tactical reactions to cannon armed fighters has got me wondering about technological changes. It might be beyond the scope of this, but what has German intel been picking up and how are they responding? Surely they will want more cannons as a starter.

Also, if there are more fighters available will the French be screaming for more support on the continent and can the RAF reasonably resist? Or should it resist?

 

[merlin]

Would Dowding be justified in saying 'No' to Churchill's request for more RAF squadrons to go to France, because unlike OTL the RAF has more aircraft. And what follows from that - any delay in France's surrender - unlikely, some Lw losses yes, but more RAF losses in men & equipment.

 

[Mr Carrot]

Well I would argue that simply by dint of having more airframes available the RAF could be in a position to mitigate many of the advantages of Sickle Cut in its area of frontage - especially the broad breakdown in LOC and Recce that took place.

Cannon armed fighters would absolutely mince the panzer divisions too....

 

[steamboy]

Would Dowding be justified in saying 'No' to Churchill's request for more RAF squadrons to go to France, because unlike OTL the RAF has more aircraft. And what follows from that - any delay in France's surrender - unlikely, some Lw losses yes, but more RAF losses in men & equipment.

Yes, his motivation IIRC was based purely on the situation on the ground and he could see that the situation on the ground was disastrous and sending more men across to France wouldn't help that.

 

[Crowbar Six]

RE AA guns in general, the UK's AA defences never seem to get much lime light, I don't know how effective they were, but with the 3.7-inch AA gun they had a potent weapon for sure. Hell the UK even put 5.25-inch guns in their turret mountings ashore as AA weapons.

There were also some 4.5" turrets added eventually as they felt the 5.25 weren't as practicable

 

[Crowbar Six]

All this talk of German tactical reactions to cannon armed fighters has got me wondering about technological changes. It might be beyond the scope of this, but what has German intel been picking up and how are they responding? Surely they will want more cannons as a starter.

Also, if there are more fighters available will the French be screaming for more support on the continent and can the RAF reasonably resist? Or should it resist?

Well, German fighters and bombers already had armour fitted and more is not always better as it reduces range and payload for the bombers. They might try to swap the fuselage mounted 7.92 for 13mm but the 109 was already a very cramped airframe and again more weight.

 

[Killer in]

If the Germans feel the need to up gun and armour the 109s then they will have even less combat time over England during the BoB.

 

[TimM]

If anything I suspect they would accelerate the deployment of the FW 190 and up gun that as required.

 

[sonofpegasus]

7.2 March 1940.

Sir Phillip sat at his desk, working late yet again. It was difficult to think that Britain had been at war for fully six months. In that respect he quickly thanked god for what was becoming known as the ‘Sitzgrieg’.

Six months of aircraft production, six months of pilot training and flying time had wrought massive changes in the order of battle for the RAF. Other factors had made big differences as well. Whilst no knockout blow had been launched by the Luftwaffe the Germans had not been idle, especially at sea. On September the 14th 1939 HMS Ark Royal had been on anti-submarine patrol when U-39 had fired two torpedoes at her. Turning to comb the tracks both torpedoes had explodes either side of the ship causing shock damage. Analysis of the attack and damage suggested that the torpedoes were using magnetic fuses and were sensitive enough or perhaps faulty and had exploded as they passed the Ark Royals bow. Ark Royal had to be escorted back from out near Rockall Bank to the Clyde for repairs.

The Cabinet meeting the next day had been somewhat fraught as Churchill as the newly installed First Lord of the Admiralty had not raised the near loss of Navy’s newest aircraft carrier. However Sir Phillip felt obliged to do so, RAF long range Stirling’s from Maritime Air Command had provide air patrols over the stricken carrier and they had been joined by Flamingos as she headed for the Clyde. Sir Phillip had disagreed with the policy of using the fleet carriers to go U-boat hunting from the start and once again voiced his concern that rather than destroying U-boats the policy would only result in loss of at least one valuable aircraft carrier.

He reminded the cabinet of the ‘Disaster of the broad 14’s’ in 1914 and asked if they were willing to face the same magnitude of loss. The fact that it was an RAF Stirling that had sunk U-39 added weight to Sir Phillip’s argument that Maritime Command and the RN should wage a co-ordinated campaign against Germans Naval assets both surface and submarine. Having used all his available diplomatic skills to avoid a confrontational stance with Winston Churchill over this matter, Sir Phillip was mightily relieved when Churchill, stating the caveat, that he had only been in favour of the anti U-boat patrols by the fleet carriers upon advice from the First Sea Lord, that all carriers would be withdrawn from such patrols and a new policy of combined air and sea searches started. The fact that Sir Phillip had warned Churchill that he would raise the matter had gone a long way to adverting open hostilities between the two men. Sir Phillip had spent several years cultivating a working relationship with Churchill and that had progressed to a light friendship. It had impressed Churchill that sir Phillip had sought no political gain or to embarrass him but used the government’s fear of losses to force his hand. Since then the relationship between the two men had been workmanlike rather than warm.

Now months later with the Navy suffering both tragic losses and inspiring victories Sir Phillip was impressed with how Sir Frederick Bowhill the Commander of the Maritime Air Command had forged a close working relationship between his command and the navy. This could be put down to the fact that Sir Frederick had been in the RNAS up until 1918 and had been captain of the seaplane carrier HMS Empress, giving him grounding in naval requirements and an understanding of the inner workings of the naval mind. The availability of RDF equipped search patrol aircraft and the deployment of the new 250lb aerial depth charge had quickly proved that aircraft could find and kill U-boats. The pre-war testing of the available anti-submarine bombs had quickly shown their deficiencies and this had resulted in the development of the specialised airborne depth charge designed for use from the new higher speed monoplanes rather than the old slow biplanes from the 1920’s.

In six months the factories had turned out almost 1500 Hurricane Mk1c’s and an equal number of Spitfire Mk1b and Mk2’s. Add to these the Defiants and Reapers and Fighter Command almost had an embarrassment of riches. As far back as October 1939 Sir Hugh Dowding had observed that Fighter Command expansion would be constrained by lack of pilots rather than aircraft. Much had been done to expand both the existing pilot pool and the training capacity but competent pilots need hours of flight time and experience and that did not happen quickly.
It was whilst having one of his regular meetings with Sir Henry Tizard and F.W. Winterbottom that he had made an offhand comment about this pilot situation. Winterbottom had expressed surprise that the RAF had not contacted the Polish Government in exile as to his knowledge a lot of very experienced Polish pilots had escaped after the German invasion and were very eager to get back into battle. Asked how he knew this Winterbottom merely shrugged and explained that a number of Polish intelligence officers were now working directly with his organisation and he had been fully briefed upon the course of the invasion of Poland and not all propaganda about the quality of Polish arms should be believed.

Enquiries from Sir Phillip to the CAS about using the Polish pilots got a fairly chilly response. A direct approach to Sir Hugh Dowding had a similar response until Sir Hugh was asked whether or not two or three hundred pilots with Hurricane Mk1a’s and b’s would have faired better against the Germans rather than the same number in Gauntlets and Gladiators. Also with Sir Hugh so concerned about the number of Fighters and pilots being sent to France it was pointed out that offering the Polish Government in exile, Currently based in Paris, fighters and bombers to fly with a Polish wing of the Air Component of the British Expeditionary Force and the Advanced Air Strike Force would be beneficial.

The French were pleased by the offer as they were struggling for front line aircraft for their own Armee de l’Air and gallic pride was not infringed if their gallant Polish allies were given British cast off’s rather than accepting them themselves.

So now in late march not only was the position of Fighter Command much improved with all the frontline squadrons flying cannon armed fighters but the BEFAC and ASF now had no less than four Polish Squadrons of Hurricanes, two of battles and one of Blenheim’s attached, all with Polish ground crews and officers. Finding sufficient liaison officers had been problematical but position had been helped by placing French speaking RAF officers with the squadrons as well. Mock battles between the Polish squadrons and the RAF ones had been most informative with it quickly becoming apparent that tactically the polish pilots were better than their Raf counterparts.

Despite that fact being hard to swallow the RAF pilots started to informally emulate the tactical formations and attack style of their Polish comrades. When a couple of the RAF units were rotated back to 11 group Park was soon appraised of the developments and flew to France to see for himself. The Polish pilots were inpressed when such a senior officer paid them a visits flying in his own Hurricane. A couple of sorties with the Poles on mock missions against the RAF squadrons and a flight in a Polish Battle to see the difference between the Polish fighter attacks and the RAF style convinced Parks that the formal attacks of the RAF were out dated and tactical instructions to his pilots would need to be revised rapidly.

 

[Astrodragon]

Would more Huriicanes also logically lead to more being supplied to Belgium, and some to Norway?
Both of which would eventually lead to more LW losses.

 

[steamboy]

Clever way of saving the Courageous, IIRC the attack on the Ark wasn't even detected until after the sub had launched and she was damn lucky to get away as she was. The Sitzkrieg is proceeding as per OTL seemingly, but its almost April and Norway and Denmark are still at risk.

I'm not sure how many Spits and Hurricanes the RAF had in OTL during this period but I assume that 1,500 Spits and Hurricanes is an improvement over OTL's production figures and a big number of these are going to be cannon armed variants. You've also got the RAF's own two heavy fighter analogues the Defiant and Reaper as well as a rather decent ground attack aircraft with the Henley Dive bomber.

According to this

http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/2012/07/raf-fighter-command-strength-1939-45.html

The RAF had 264 spits and 272 Hurricanes in service, if those figures are correct then the RAF's far far far stronger.

I still think that France will fall, the problems there were too endemic to fix with the armed forces, their tactics, their reactions (or lack thereof) and the German military is far more prepared for the war, but golly...3000 fighters in service without counting other craft. That'll make the Germans sit up and take notice.

I doubt the RAF would be really willing to let any be sold or traded away, but the way of getting a few hundred extra pilots through the Polish exiles is clever, lets hope they also extend that to the Czech's.

Offering Norway more modern aircraft I think won't help. You'd have to first have the Norwegian govt willing to accept them and then you'v got to get the pilots familiarized with them and the like. If there's any Gladiators left, give them to the Norwegians instead.

I can see the RAF rather wanting to hold back the aircraft as a reserve. Maybe sell some to the Belgians but this also cuts down on the RAF thinking of splurging cash on Tommahawks and other USAF aircraft if they've got somewhere around 3000 planes ready to use.

 

[sonofpegasus]

Along with an extra 750 plus Spitfires, Castle Bromwich even at half capacity just about doubles the delivery of Spitfires from OTL. To free up Merlins for Fighters Bomber command has lost a lot of Fairy Battles and Whitleys are not using Merlins either. Without the Vulture, Peregrine or Exe, RR at Derby are building a few more Merlins but more importantly development of the Griffon and Merlin is ahead of OTL. I have kept Hurricane exports as OTL. ITTL Sir Phillip, the CAS and Dowding are insisting on the full war reserve. Only when there is 150% of frontline fighters held at squadron and storage level will anything be released. Now that the PAIE, has four squadrons of HurricaneMk1a&b's with the Ia's being rotated out as metal winged Ib's become available, that absorbs an extra 224 aircraft that now cannot be sent to other areas or allies.

 

[steamboy]

One thing that should be released. IIRC the RAF had a large number of 'ol Vickers HMG's in storage, the 'ol watercooled MGs. Might want to start putting them around RAF bases and radar sites for point defence.

 

[yulzari]

One thing that should be released. IIRC the RAF had a large number of 'ol Vickers HMG's in storage, the 'ol watercooled MGs. Might want to start putting them around RAF bases and radar sites for point defence.

Pedantic trivia: they are MMGs and were air cooled. They had fixed (i.e. not quick change) thin barrels and relied on 100mph+ airflow for cooling so would burn barrels out fast.

Still useful with gunners trained to minimise barrel heating with short burst fire with a cooling pause. They will need tripods or similar for ground mounting. IIRC some Army water cooled ones were pintle mounted on vehicles informally. Perhaps a barrel jacket could be contrived to use water cooling again? Or a heavier barrel made? Also they would need a manual firing trigger at the rear. Not just a slide them off the shelf and send them off to the Home Guard job but doable with some extra engineering input.

 

[steamboy]

Ahh cheers for the fix there Yulzari I was watching this

And it reminded me of the vickers and I thought the ones on the older planes were the same gun (and basically are but with a different cooling method as you described )

You could probably put them on some simple kind of tripod mounting, have one designed and then put together in a workshop. You don't need something over the top, just a big tripod mount and bracing for one or two MGs, a simple sight and a trigger. Or failing that, as you said, give them to the Home Guard if you can convert them back into water cooling, they'd probably be thankful for them.

 

[riggerrob]

Just a thought if the wing and tail plane of the Whitley ...... At least by the looks of it the C.26/31 would make a half decent parachute training aircraft, a lot better that the cramped Whitley any which way.
The Whitley did do good service with Coastal Command OTL

——————————————————————————

Good eye!
By 1944, WALLIES concluded that 2 yard high by 1 yard (2m x 1m) side door was as the minimum practical size for dropping paratroopers. See Douglas C-47 (DC3) half cargo door.

If paratroopers jump with heavy (up to 100 pounds) leg bags or rucksacks, they need to stand with their spines vertical. Any door less than 6 feet tall guarantees spinal injuries before they leave the plane.
Bloche MB220, Bristol Bombay, DH Flamingo and Handley-Page Harrow were all in the same weight and performance range as Douglas DC2 .... an excellent place to start building airliners.

As for Bloch MH220 only carrying 16 passengers .... that is probably a “luxury” airliner configuration. Seating varies widely depending upon comfort levels.
In comparison, DC3 only carried about 14 in “sleeper” configuration, but 26 to 31 in airliner service. I have flown in a (stripped) DC3 carrying 40 skydivers! Yes, we were cramped, but we were all skinny, all wearing the latest in (1980) skydiving gear and it was a short flight to 12,500’.

As for wing spars bisecting cabins ..... a nuisance in a passenger plane like a Boeing 247, but less important the larger the airplane grows. A huge airliner merely needs two doors to access the forward and aft cabins seperately.
Modem airliners solve the problem by installing wing spars under the cabin floor to eliminate the hump. Externally, that positions the wings’ bottom skin level with the bottom of the fuselage.

 

[phx1138]

Your right but I still think they will double down with larger ops "to bring the British to battle" and/or an earlier Adler Tag and then switch to night ops.

I don't think you're wrong about that. As I'm seeing it, there are three possibilities:

• they do that, & switch to night ops on about the OTL schedule
• they doh't do that, & switch to night ops much earlier than OTL
• they do that, & when it continues not to work, switch to night ops somewhat earlier than OTL (but less than option 2)

Each of these, IMO, is equally reasonable, & which one obtains depends on the writer's desire & opinion of German willingness to take losses, or perception of success (that is, are they deluded into thinking they're doing well enough to continue, or are losses disproportionate to success?). That's an open question, IMO. It may be there's information out there on exactly what level of losses caused Fat Hermann to change his mind; I haven't really looked. If there is, it may be possible to decide this on evidence; if not, author's call, IMO, & I wouldn't say any of them is ASB.

 

[sonofpegasus]

'Steamboy' interesting bit of info, re Vickers HMG, do you have a source. I do not think there is a driver for their disposition to airfields until france falls

 

[steamboy]

'Steamboy' interesting bit of info, re Vickers HMG, do you have a source. I do not think there is a driver for their disposition to airfields until france falls

I wish I could remember, it may well have been France Fights On. It was basically the MG's from the older Bi-planes the RAF was replacing (Fury's etc) and the RAF put the weapons into storage. Ammo wouldn't be a problem as there's untold millions of .303 rounds in depots. But I dunno if you could convert the air cooled MG back into its water cooled config, but its just putting a shroud round the gun, and putting a trigger on it.

Totally agree that a driver for it could be the fall of France, then the Army and RAF would be scrambling for anything and even some old MG's that need a bit of faffing around could come in handy.