Determined to Destroy Us - An Axis Victory Cold War TL

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Knightmare

Knightmare

The Red said:
It's a micronation but one with disproportionate power. It's not like the fascists can strut in and dictate their agenda.
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No, but nothing says any cardinals who make proposals don't get stopped on the way out for "immigration hearings", or other paperwork, and then vanish into a cell.
 

The Red

Knightmare said:
No, but nothing says any cardinals who make proposals don't get stopped on the way out for "immigration hearings", or other paperwork, and then vanish into a cell.
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If the fascists are kidnapping Cardinals then that's something that's going to be publicly protested by Catholic newspapers, and presumably non-fascist press as well.
 
Knightmare

Knightmare

The Red said:
If the fascists are kidnapping Cardinals then that's something that's going to be publicly protested by Catholic newspapers, and presumably non-fascist press as well.
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It's not kidnapping, it's just detention.

For a week.

See, here's the cardinal back! Alive, and with most of his limbs still attached. We apologize for that, BTW, someone was a bit snippy while in custody, but it's all sorted out now.

The fact is, yes, the papers will be upset. But it won't proceed past it. Probably.
 

lukedalton

Knightmare said:
It's not kidnapping, it's just detention.

For a week.

See, here's the cardinal back! Alive, and with most of his limbs still attached. We apologize for that, BTW, someone was a bit snippy while in custody, but it's all sorted out now.

The fact is, yes, the papers will be upset. But it won't proceed past it. Probably.
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And it's very probable that the prefect and the agents arresting the cardinal will be transferred at Sassu Frittu, province of Carbonia (Sardinia) with the job of mules as a scapegoat; better not understimate the power of the church on a very devout country (expecially in the countryside) and with a lot of tie with the higher echelons of the society. Basically this kind of intimidation mafia-style will have the opposite effect (and everybody knows it)...a more nuanced approach between the two sides wil happen.
 
Knightmare

Knightmare

lukedalton said:
And it's very probable that the prefect and the agents arresting the cardinal will be transferred at Sassu Frittu, province of Carbonia (Sardinia) with the job of mules as a scapegoat; better not understimate the power of the church on a very devout country (expecially in the countryside) and with a lot of tie with the higher echelons of the society. Basically this kind of intimidation mafia-style will have the opposite effect (and everybody knows it)...a more nuanced approach between the two sides wil happen.
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Or more likely use German personnel, thereby shifting any anger into Germany.
 

lukedalton

Knightmare said:
Or more likely use German personnel, thereby shifting any anger into Germany.
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Even worse, German personell roughing up italian cardinal under the watch of the fascist? It mean in practice admit that Italy is nothing more than a puppet and the German authorities can do what they want here; remember that the PFI and his Duce (or whatever) doesn't hold the same type of power that OTL communist or nazi had in their respective nation and so it's much more prone to compromise.
 

sloreck

The fascist governments can make life unpleasant for the Catholic Church in many ways, before they go in for kidnapping senior clerics or assassinating cardinals. Loss of state support, restrictions on parochial schools, limitations on vocations, taxing church property, confiscation (eminent domain) of church property for "necessary state purposes" are only a few of the ways the governments can arrange difficulties. All communications in and out of the Vatican can be forced through a central/controlled communication office (although of course some will leak through). Pressure can be gradually increased, and if being a practicing Catholic will count against you in university admissions, job promotions or hirings, housing allotments, many folks will drift away and as the number of true believers decreases, the ability to apply pressure on the Church increases.

The Holy See is as aware of those realities, and will trim its sails appropriately.
 

25or6to4

Tanner151 said:
I would assume on average, the German panzer (ex: Panzer IX "Jaguar") would be more powerful (better armor and cannon) that's jts closest American counter-part but the Americans would have far more tanks to make up for it. The U.S. Army and Marines would be using semi-auto rifles during the '60s, with the mass introduction of automatic rifles occurring in the near future while the Reich has used automatic guns for nearly two decades or so.
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The 50s era tanks they could be using would be utilizing the 128 mm L/75 (or L/78) FlaK 45 in some form, or the next generation of tank gun after that, up to 200 mm of armour or more in some places, engines with up to 1375 HP at 2300 rpm or more ( and a top speed at or surpassing 40 km/hr). FCS tech rather would be something better than the T.W.Z. F 1. of the day since it would have 50s tech. LSSAH were already heavily experimenting with IR technology OTL so we know the Nazi tanks would undoubtedly have that featured. However, the US might actually rise to the occasion and come up with at least comparable systems to these, completely butterflying away the OTL tanks the US used, and going all out like Krupp or Porsche would be doing. It might be a matter of necessity as the OTL tank guns might not even penetrate the armour of their Nazi counterparts. Even the USSR eventually managed to get to a point where various US tank gun were of questionable value at certain times in history, and their design philosophy was the polar opposite of the Nazis, who would deliberately go one step further in their mania for massive amounts of armour. You'd probably see something like a 140 mm tank gun being used by the US at some point, which they experimented with OTL even. They'd have even more reason to adopt it here
 

Bookmark1995

Banned
sloreck said:
The fascist governments can make life unpleasant for the Catholic Church in many ways, before they go in for kidnapping senior clerics or assassinating cardinals. Loss of state support, restrictions on parochial schools, limitations on vocations, taxing church property, confiscation (eminent domain) of church property for "necessary state purposes" are only a few of the ways the governments can arrange difficulties. All communications in and out of the Vatican can be forced through a central/controlled communication office (although of course some will leak through). Pressure can be gradually increased, and if being a practicing Catholic will count against you in university admissions, job promotions or hirings, housing allotments, many folks will drift away and as the number of true believers decreases, the ability to apply pressure on the Church increases.

The Holy See is as aware of those realities, and will trim its sails appropriately.
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Yes, but how long can the Holy See go before the Vaticans loses its prestige in the eyes of every non-European Vatican. I bet ITTL, Pope Francis, a pretty swell guy, and other Western Hemisphere Catholics could become very disillusioned by all these horrors the Vatican will increasingly enable.
 

FillyofDelphi

Banned
sloreck said:
The fascist governments can make life unpleasant for the Catholic Church in many ways, before they go in for kidnapping senior clerics or assassinating cardinals. Loss of state support, restrictions on parochial schools, limitations on vocations, taxing church property, confiscation (eminent domain) of church property for "necessary state purposes" are only a few of the ways the governments can arrange difficulties. All communications in and out of the Vatican can be forced through a central/controlled communication office (although of course some will leak through). Pressure can be gradually increased, and if being a practicing Catholic will count against you in university admissions, job promotions or hirings, housing allotments, many folks will drift away and as the number of true believers decreases, the ability to apply pressure on the Church increases.

The Holy See is as aware of those realities, and will trim its sails appropriately.
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To be replaced with what, though? One of the issues with many Fascists countries (France, Italy, and Spain being key among them), is that they've built many of their mechanisms of education/enforcement and their ideological bedrock on the "traditional values and institutions" managed and propegated by the Holy Mother Church. Those parochial schools? They're the ones teaching the kids loyalty, piety, the importance of the old family structures, ect.: all at a reduced cost to the state, full compliance by the parents, local leadership, and communities. Plus, those secular universities have a nasty habit of being infested with "liberal values". Limiting the vocations of Catholics? You'll be alienating huge chunks of the population/regions from any connection to the central government, and therefore loyalty to it, to say nothing of probably running shorter on qualified candidates to fill out the (usually large) beuracracy required for your police and corperatist state to function.

Not to mention, as BookMark pointed out in the post above mine, the Church needs to look crediable/responsive to its wider world base, rather than merely cow-towing to the whims of Nazi puppet masters, in order to carry its morale weight outside of the Fascist's direct sphere of control: a huge propaganda/power projection tool in their hands if the Church retains a positive opinion of the governments. To paraphrase Napoleon "Better a known enemy than a forced ally" to which I would add "But a willing ally is better than them both"
 
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