Why in hell would the quebcois indepence movment go facist. With the mother country of france occupied by Nazs, Qubec would become the most anti Nazi provinces in the country
Last edited:
Determined to Destroy Us - An Axis Victory Cold War TL
- Thread starter SirPaperweight
- Start date
Obergruppenführer Smith
Banned
Uhm, people...... Do you realize that Québécois are nationalist for Quebec, and are not all that pumped up about those froggies across the pond? If anything, the Quebec independence movement would become all the more anti-France at that point.
Because I seem to recall DeGaulle paying them a visit OTL?
I was just throwing that possibility out there. I'll put forward another possibility: would English Canada recognize Quebec as a distinct society within the country to put up a united front against a Nazi-dominated Europe?
There was cooperation between French Canadians and the French historically over this kind of thing, with there even being a period of time where France and Canada had a lot of diplomatic tensions over the matter. Though those tensions died down when de Gaulle and his followers lost power in France, and the Liberals won elections in Quebec.
The idea that a similar attempt at that kind of thing couldn't happen, to cause a headache for Canada if nothing else, is silly.
That some of the people that agitated for an independent Quebec might be swayed into adopting fascism is also something that could happen. I wouldn't expect it to be popular, but it's still something I would expect given the problem we have with, say, Neo Nazi groups today.
I mean, fuck, there are actually children and grandchildren of Holocaust survivors who became Neo Nazis and tried to exploit Israel's Law of Return to start shit in Israel.
=====================
Speaking of de Gaulle and the Free Quebec crowd . . .
What happened to the Free French?
Since Free France as an entity that is holding out in the colonies is no longer a thing, and hasn't been since WW2 ended ITTL, those who didn't want to live under a fascist France had to have gone somewhere. It would certainly be interesting if the Free French tried to move to Quebec. Fill it up with more French speaking peoples and further agitate the Quebec situation.
You could have de Gaulle being his usual piece of shit self and trying to turn Quebec into "New France" as some kind of democratic opposite to the fascist controlled "Old France".
Because the Nazis winning WW2 is no reason for de Gaulle to not cause the Allies headaches.
It'd certainly be a nice way of showing that there can be trouble in paradise so that it isn't always sunshine and rainbows for the Rio Pact.
The idea that a similar attempt at that kind of thing couldn't happen, to cause a headache for Canada if nothing else, is silly.
That some of the people that agitated for an independent Quebec might be swayed into adopting fascism is also something that could happen. I wouldn't expect it to be popular, but it's still something I would expect given the problem we have with, say, Neo Nazi groups today.
I mean, fuck, there are actually children and grandchildren of Holocaust survivors who became Neo Nazis and tried to exploit Israel's Law of Return to start shit in Israel.
=====================
Speaking of de Gaulle and the Free Quebec crowd . . .
What happened to the Free French?
Since Free France as an entity that is holding out in the colonies is no longer a thing, and hasn't been since WW2 ended ITTL, those who didn't want to live under a fascist France had to have gone somewhere. It would certainly be interesting if the Free French tried to move to Quebec. Fill it up with more French speaking peoples and further agitate the Quebec situation.
You could have de Gaulle being his usual piece of shit self and trying to turn Quebec into "New France" as some kind of democratic opposite to the fascist controlled "Old France".
Because the Nazis winning WW2 is no reason for de Gaulle to not cause the Allies headaches.
It'd certainly be a nice way of showing that there can be trouble in paradise so that it isn't always sunshine and rainbows for the Rio Pact.
Obergruppenführer Smith
Banned
And? You're confusing a French's interference into Canadian politics with (non-existent) Québécois support for France.
That's an interesting question. Frankly, I don't know what to say, given how the Grande Noirceur (Great Darkness) of Maurice Duplessis screwed Quebec's economy, leading to a feeling that the Anglos were sucking the province. English Canada would have to work as a partner during the Révolution tranquille (Quiet Revolution) to avoid the realignment of politics into federalist and sovereignist factions.
Actually, you're right, if English Canada puts in the effort to make Quebec feel more welcome, then the sovereignist movement might be nipped in the bud. At that point only actual fascists supported by the Nazis would raise any racket about independence.
Obergruppenführer Smith
Banned
You know, that really feels like the Jordan/Palestine situation. I love it.
Been a little bit since I last posted an update. Looking back over the timeline, I see several things that I would've done differently if I were doing this all over again. I'd probably go for a more "scrapbook story" style, to make it easier to insert narrative interludes into the story. Oh well.
The Catholic Church (run by an Axis collaborationist Pope as of right now) is very influential in Spain, Portugal, Italy and France. Conservative, traditionalist Catholics make up a powerful political faction in those countries. Nazi neopaganism, meanwhile, is nonexistent anywhere outside of the Reich. It's pretty much just a German phenomenon, and the Nazi leaders understand that. It's not meant to be a universal, Axis-wide faith.
I... don't know. I'll have to think about that. Especially regarding Quebec nationalism.
Not really, since the Nazi authorities are quick to crack down on any semblance of dissent.
The fall of the Soviet Union is occurring around the same time as Heydrich's rise to power, so nothing really new.
One last thing... Here's a bit of a hint on what the next update will be about.
The Catholic Church (run by an Axis collaborationist Pope as of right now) is very influential in Spain, Portugal, Italy and France. Conservative, traditionalist Catholics make up a powerful political faction in those countries. Nazi neopaganism, meanwhile, is nonexistent anywhere outside of the Reich. It's pretty much just a German phenomenon, and the Nazi leaders understand that. It's not meant to be a universal, Axis-wide faith.
I... don't know. I'll have to think about that. Especially regarding Quebec nationalism.
Not really, since the Nazi authorities are quick to crack down on any semblance of dissent.
The fall of the Soviet Union is occurring around the same time as Heydrich's rise to power, so nothing really new.
One last thing... Here's a bit of a hint on what the next update will be about.
That doesn't look good.One last thing...Here's a bit of a hint on what the next update will be about.
Chapter XXX: Nazi Racial Theory in the Sixties
Chapter XXX: Nazi Racial Theory in the Sixties
Reinhard Heydrich's anti-reformist government accompanied a shift in the way prominent Nazis viewed race and ethnicity. Racial theorists at major universities across Germany led a revolution in the way the Aryan race was seen. Previously, such diverse groups as Iranians and Northern Italians were all seen as functionally "Aryan." Even if they were still seen as inferior to the Germans, they were part of the master race. Additionally, the Chinese and Japanese were seen as "honorary Aryans," stemming from Adolf Hitler's respect for their civilizations.
Starting in the Fifties, Nazi academia turned against this conception of what the master race was. The idea of a large, overarching "Aryan" race fell out of favor with racial theorists, with emphasis instead placed on "Nords" as a separate race with a unique ethnic heritage. These "Nordicists," led by anthropologist Otto Reche, claimed that the Aryan race either did not exist or was identical to the Nordic race. Nordicists also claimed that there was no such thing as an "honorary Aryan." Hans F.K. Günther, meanwhile, clung on to the old beliefs held by Hitler and his colleagues, leading the "Aryanists" (both terms had been in use beforehand, often describing different racial beliefs, but they have since come to refer solely to their Nazi definitions).
One thing that also separated the Nordicists and the Aryanists was the role of race to the individual and to the broader society. Nordicists took the typical Nazi devotion to ethnicity and went further, claiming that ethnicity was a key part of someone's view of themselves as a person. The significance that Nordicists placed on race was almost religious, as can be gathered from quotes from prominent contemporary racial theorists.
Nordicist beliefs were dismissed by Göring and his allies as useless bunk, but they found strong allies in the SS. Heinrich Himmler quickly adopted Nordicism, as did Reinhard Heydrich. SS troops were indoctrinated according to Noridicist values for years before Heydrich's rise to power. Following the purge of the NSDAP in the early 1960s, most prominent Nazis were Nordicists. Traditional Aryanism was firmly in the minority.
---------------------------------------------------------------
And you thought OTL Nazi racial theories were crazy. Man, this chapter was hard to write. Anyway, some of those theorists I mentioned are real people, some are made-up. I'll chalk it up to butterflies.
Reinhard Heydrich's anti-reformist government accompanied a shift in the way prominent Nazis viewed race and ethnicity. Racial theorists at major universities across Germany led a revolution in the way the Aryan race was seen. Previously, such diverse groups as Iranians and Northern Italians were all seen as functionally "Aryan." Even if they were still seen as inferior to the Germans, they were part of the master race. Additionally, the Chinese and Japanese were seen as "honorary Aryans," stemming from Adolf Hitler's respect for their civilizations.
Starting in the Fifties, Nazi academia turned against this conception of what the master race was. The idea of a large, overarching "Aryan" race fell out of favor with racial theorists, with emphasis instead placed on "Nords" as a separate race with a unique ethnic heritage. These "Nordicists," led by anthropologist Otto Reche, claimed that the Aryan race either did not exist or was identical to the Nordic race. Nordicists also claimed that there was no such thing as an "honorary Aryan." Hans F.K. Günther, meanwhile, clung on to the old beliefs held by Hitler and his colleagues, leading the "Aryanists" (both terms had been in use beforehand, often describing different racial beliefs, but they have since come to refer solely to their Nazi definitions).
One thing that also separated the Nordicists and the Aryanists was the role of race to the individual and to the broader society. Nordicists took the typical Nazi devotion to ethnicity and went further, claiming that ethnicity was a key part of someone's view of themselves as a person. The significance that Nordicists placed on race was almost religious, as can be gathered from quotes from prominent contemporary racial theorists.
"Moral values stem from purity of ethnicity. A proper understanding of what is right and what is wrong stems from the presence of Nordic blood. Negroids, semites, mongoloids and other ethnic enemies simply lack the capacity for sound moral judgement. Their monstrous tendencies are incurable. That is why the ethnically polluted people of America must necessarily embrace moral degeneracy; they dilute their Nordic blood with the blood of negroids and armenoids."
-Fritz Lenz, professor of racial health at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Anthropology, Human Heredity, and Eugenics"To understand the difference between the Nords of Germany and the other Euroid peoples in Britain and North America, one must understand passive and active race, and the process of race-realization. Passive race is the state of ignorance toward race, the lack of understanding that race permeates all thought and action. Race-realization is when that ignorance is dispelled with, and passive race becomes active race. Populations that experience active race, like ethnic Germany, have more cohesive, structured societies because people learn to trust those with whom they share ethnic kinship."
-Thorsten Neustadt, professor of general ethnology at the Frederick William University"The 'New World' is a hive of racial, moral and societal degeneracy and evolutionary backwardness. For centuries, miscegenation has diluted the ethnic purity of nations from Canada to Chile. Jews, negroids, mongoloids and others have flooded into those nations, destroying all purity of ethnicity in the process. That explains why the peoples of 'Latin America' have regressed along the evolutionary line, to the point where they are indistinguishable from negroids and chimpanzees. The collapse of Spain as a great power is directly linked to the Spanish inbreeding with racial degenerates in the Americas. The miscegenation also explains why the core value of the American nation - that of moneymaking - is a fundamentally Jewish value. America is a polluted land to the core, and Jewish traits are merely the traits that won over the others."
-Bernd Gerste, professor of American ethnology at the University of Jena"The other races of the world can be divided neatly into two categories: race-friends and race-enemies. Race-friends are other races who share proper moral characteristics with nords. Most Mediterranean peoples, as well as other Reich allies such as the Magyars, fall into this category. Race-enemies, however, are those peoples who embrace degenerative characteristics, and who envy and fear those with a proper racial stock. The Jews and Slavs are the most prominent of the race-enemies."
-Niklas Himmel, professor of political ethnology at the University of Freiburg"A nation's survival as a distinct, cohesive entity relies on the protection of its ethnic heritage. Consider the Romans. The Latin racial stock kept that empire alive for millennia, and its fall was a direct consequence of its embrace of ethnic intermixing. The key to the Thousand-Year Reich is its racial purity. Germany will exist for as long as German ethnic purity exists."
-Eugen Fischer, director of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute of Anthropology, Human Heredity, and Eugenics"To believe that there is any aspect of personhood that exists beyond race is to believe a lie. There is no thought, no action, beyond race. A man is naught but his ethnicity, and he must necessarily think and act ethnically as well. One can apply this knowledge to the grand schemes of politics and history. If all thought is racial thought, then all wars are race wars, and the 'total wars' of the modern era are simply race wars led by nations that have achieved race-realization. Indeed, it can be argued that the transition from animalistic hunting and gathering to agriculturalism was in part motivated by the desire to create an ethnic homeland."
-Thorsten NeustadtNordicist beliefs were dismissed by Göring and his allies as useless bunk, but they found strong allies in the SS. Heinrich Himmler quickly adopted Nordicism, as did Reinhard Heydrich. SS troops were indoctrinated according to Noridicist values for years before Heydrich's rise to power. Following the purge of the NSDAP in the early 1960s, most prominent Nazis were Nordicists. Traditional Aryanism was firmly in the minority.
---------------------------------------------------------------
And you thought OTL Nazi racial theories were crazy. Man, this chapter was hard to write. Anyway, some of those theorists I mentioned are real people, some are made-up. I'll chalk it up to butterflies.
Last edited:
I only liked it out of appreciation for how the author managed to take crazy Nazi race theories and invent an even crazier variant. That's a characteristic of a good writer.