Determined to Destroy Us - An Axis Victory Cold War TL

[Shogo]

After Germany won in Europe, there might actually have been closer relations between the Irish and the Germans if they decided to try to support Ireland's claims to Northern Ireland.

Even if those relations soured when knowledge of the Holocaust got out, I don't necessarily think that would stop them from accepting German aid.

Though it is interesting to note that during the war, the British offered to give Northern Ireland to Ireland if it declared war on the Germans. The main reason they didn't declare war was because the offer was "if Northern Ireland agrees to it". That alone was enough to make them reject it, simply because Northern Ireland would be allowed to say no and Ireland didn't want to send people to fight and die in a war if they weren't going to get anything out of it.

O another note, the Irish were once asked what they would do if German paratroopers "liberated" Northern Ireland. The leader of Ireland at the time was quiet for awhile and simply said, "I don't know."

 

[karatachi]

Was there interment of Japanese-Americans like OTL?

 

[President Earl Warren]

what happend to the american communists after the destructon of the soviet union

 

[karatachi]

what happend to the american communists after the destructon of the soviet union

Obliteration through obscurity and irrelevance.

 

[SirPaperweight]

Sorry for not responding in a while. I just moved into college and I'm still getting situated. I'll get back to updating and responding to comments soon™.

 

[Shogo]

It's hard to say what would happen to the American Communists. Socialism and Communism were already kind of unpopular. The Red Scare of the Cold War was actually the Second Red Scare. Though I can't really say for certain how things would go for them in this timeline.

 

[Tales Weaver]

It's hard to say what would happen to the American Communists. Socialism and Communism were already kind of unpopular. The Red Scare of the Cold War was actually the Second Red Scare. Though I can't really say for certain how things would go for them in this timeline.

I think American government will use the communists to back USSR to fight nazis..

 

[Shogo]

Well, historically the Communist Party of America tended to support Stalinist policies. Even after Stalinism fell out of favor in the USSR. This lead to the USSR eventually cutting off all support to the CPA.

Odds are pretty good that they would have been supporters of Suslov, who continued Stalin's rather nasty policies in this timeline. And that they might still be favoring the Soviets even after the Russians overthrew them and established Democratic Socialism in Russia. (I don't think the USSR actually exists anymore . . . Or at last it doesn't call itself that anymore.)

If the American Communists are still supporting the Soviets and their guerrilla war against the US backed Russians . . . That could cause them to face problems in this timeline. In other words, Communism might remain weak.

Hmm. I wonder if Socialism has itself been damaged in America simply because people will look at the Nazis and decide . . . "National Socialists? Socialist is in the name! I'd better hate Socialism!" (Because people love being stupid.)

 

[thekingsguard]

I'm just going to point out that Pope Pius XII has a forest in Israel named for him. For the last decade, there has been a push to recognize him as Yad Vashim.

People who lick Nazi bootheels tend not to be the kind of people honored so highly by Israeli Jews.

 

[karatachi]

The biggest winner in all of this is going to be China. With earlier social and economical liberalization, not to mention US aid and no cultural revolution.
When will China detonate its first nuke?

 

[President Earl Warren]

so are the american parties united when it comes to foreign policy.

 

[SirPaperweight]

I will not "like" this chapter, but your writing is impressive. Have you created these citations from nothing, or simiiar theories were publicized OTL?

Thanks! As far as I know, the theory of a "Nordic master race" is hardly new, but the Nazis' intensity of belief in it is made up.

I only liked it out of appreciation for how the author managed to take crazy Nazi race theories and invent an even crazier variant. That's a characteristic of a good writer.

Thanks, I figured that

I'll just disagree on that blood sport thing . . . Though the Nordist thing is interesting.

I'd have assumed that it would be rather hard for Nordism to gain the advantage over Aryanism, if only because Aryanist would be able to say that Hitler was an Aryanist.

Someone promoting Nordism is kind of implicitly stating that Hitler was wrong. For that reason alone, I'd assume it'd be an unpopular stance.

Well, Hitler's dead. He can't really say anything one way or another anymore. There was a limited degree of deviation from established doctrine even during Hitler's lifetime (see the crazy religious beliefs of Heinrich Himmler and some of his SS buddies), and I think a Fuhrer coming from the cutting-edge-crazy SS would embrace Nordicism.

Wow, you're good. You actually were able to rationally explain the irrational shit. The Nazis are insane - still funny how Goering managed to not be completely nuts - but you describe their insanity well. Lol, those university titles were awesome in an unsettling way; although the OTL Politicizing Beyonce still takes the cake for most insane class title.


That we are writing of the Third Reich descending into madness - when they were clearly mad to begin with - is amazing. Burn baby, burn

Those university titles are all OTL.

Speaking of that chapter, How did Italian fascism Evolved?

Fascism in Italy is pretty much as it was in the twentues, albeit a bit less anticlerical.

Don't sell yourself short. I very much enjoy what you write.




How much of a collaborationist is this pope? Is he writing papal bulls supporting the mass murder of Jews and Poles, and the suppression of Catholicism in Germany proper? Or is he merely making noise about the horrors while squatting in the Vatican?

If he is doing the former, he might seriously alienate Catholics outside of Europe. The American people are becoming increasingly anti-Nazi, so I think American Catholics might be horribly disillusioned seeing their spiritual leader praising the most monstrous crimes ever, especially those of Irish descent. Would South and Central Americans also be going through a painful moral dilemma as they see the Vatican turning a blind eye to some god-less crimes?

Pope Gregory XVII isn't supporting Nazi atrocities, but he isn't speaking out against them, either. He's also chummy with the Catholic fascists because they give the Church plenty of power and authority.

SirPaperwright, how is computing tech in this TL?

I'll need to do more research before I can say.

Is there a situation where there are two Popes (with the anti-Fascist Pope being in Latin America) or is there still a single unified Papacy?

Nope. One, unified Papacy.

What are the Irish doing? Trying to become the new Switzerland?

Ireland is neutral in the Cold War; the Northern Ireland conflict is keeping Dublin out of the Rio Pact.

Was there interment of Japanese-Americans like OTL?

A little, but not to the extent of OTL; Japanese-Americans supported the American war effort overwhelmingly, although the destructive aftermath is more divisive.

what happend to the american communists after the destructon of the soviet union

American commies weren't really relevant in the first place, but they see the new Russia as a counterrevolutionary force and they're divided on how to view China.

I'm just going to point out that Pope Pius XII has a forest in Israel named for him. For the last decade, there has been a push to recognize him as Yad Vashim.

People who lick Nazi bootheels tend not to be the kind of people honored so highly by Israeli Jews.

Pius XII isn't the Pope ITTL. IOTL, Valerio Valeri (the cardinal who ITTL became Pope Gregory XVII) collaborated with the Vichy regime in France.

The biggest winner in all of this is going to be China. With earlier social and economical liberalization, not to mention US aid and no cultural revolution.
When will China detonate its first nuke?

About the same time as OTL, so mid-1960s.

so are the american parties united when it comes to foreign policy.

Pretty much.

 

[SirPaperweight]

A hint on what the next update will be about. Should be up in the next couple of days, unless something happens.

 

[Knightmare]

Unemployment charts, pictures of forced laborers, and their currency.

Add in a.... less than skilled leader, and I see a recipe for long term economic prosperity!

 

[BananaJoe]

Just something I wanted to ask. In one of your earlier updates, you said that there was a degree of political liberalisation under Goering, but what did this look like in practice? How critical could you be under Goering that you couldn't under Hitler or Heydrich?

 

[andry2806]

Nazi economic crash and an equivalent of Berlin Wall?

 

[The Karavoka Man]

I'm going with the great Nazi financial recession. A long time coming. Milton Friedman will not be defied, not even by Nazi Germany.

 

[Bookmark1995]

I'm going with the great Nazi financial recession. A long time coming. Milton Friedman will not be defied, not even by Nazi Germany.

What would Friedman say about the Nazis? How would he use his free market ideas to argue that the Reich was on a collision course?

 

[SirPaperweight]

Just something I wanted to ask. In one of your earlier updates, you said that there was a degree of political liberalisation under Goering, but what did this look like in practice? How critical could you be under Goering that you couldn't under Hitler or Heydrich?

Goering's reforms were mostly cultural and not political. You could still get arrested for disagreeing with the party line, but at least you wouldn't have to read as many, eh, "corrected" books, and you could freely worship Christ without worrying about being harassed by Gestapo thugs.

 

[SirPaperweight]

Chapter XXXI: Era of Tears

Once he was formally declared Führer, Reinhard Heydrich and his advisers faced the daunting task of rectifying the problems in the German economy. The amount of spending by the government since the end of the German-Soviet War was enormous; it had to rebuild German infrastructure, establish the bureaucracy necessary to govern the new empire, create programs for settling the East and engage in large new construction projects. To pay for this, the government took on enormous amounts of debt. By 1960, German national debt accounted for over 300% of GDP, and debt repayment accounted for almost 30% of the national budget. All this deficit spending, however, could only keep the economy just above water; RGDP growth, which stood steady at around 2% in the 1950s, was now approaching zero.

Unemployment was growing as well; during wartime, it was nearly nonexistent, but by 1960 was at 12% and growing. Heydrich knew that excessive government spending was the only thing keeping unemployment from spiraling out of control, but doing so added to the already-immense debt issue. The government was divided on where to go next; some, like Karl Schiller and Reich Economic Minister Ludwig Erhard, proposed a reduction in government spending, an increase in taxes and a liberalization of the economy in order to reduce debt and stimulate growth. Others, like Franz Hayler, believed that the solution was to continue deficit spending in order to increase available capital and keep Germany at work, hopefully resulting in a more productive economy in the long run.

Unemployment in the Third Reich grew steadily in the 1950s despite massive government spending​

Worse still, neither solution adequately addressed a third economic problem: a nonproductive agricultural sector. Generalplan Ost was proceeding smoothly; thousands of Germans were moving east, incentivized by generous homesteading programs. Additionally, the birth rate amongst ethnic Germans remained high, especially in the East, which never ran out of new land to colonize. Despite this, agricultural output in Eastern Europe was declining. German settlers and Slavic forced laborers were simply not as productive as hoped. Many foodstuffs produced in surplus in the United States were heavily-rationed behind the Atlantic Wall. The problem was made worse by the lack of mechanization in German agriculture. Something had to be done.

To begin resolving the crises, Führer Heydrich dismissed Economic Minister Ludwig Erhard and replaced him with Franz Hayler. He saw the debt as a major issue, but for political and ideological reasons believed that high unemployment was worse. He feared that the reduction or elimination of social welfare programs, skyrocketing unemployment and the rise of taxes would generate significant unrest that could destabilize the Nazi regime. Additionally, he trusted that investment in capital goods would create long-term economic growth for the Third Reich. In his words, "debt is an abstract problem. The standard of living is not."

Furthermore, Heydrich took steps to increase government control over the economy. Over the course of the last decade, the new Führer had come to believe in both the nationalist and the socialist elements of Nazism, and sought to build an economy where the government, not the private sector, was the main economic driver. Heydrich had come to believe that private enterprise constituted a power base separate from the state, an unacceptable situation in his eyes. Capitalism, to him, was a means of subverting the power of the Nazi Party, and thus had to be dismantled.

Heydrich thus authorized a series of sweeping reforms nationalizing a number of industries, including burgeoning industries like civil aviation (Luftreich, the German flag carrying airline, was expanded massively during Heydrich's rule). The Four Year Plans initiated during the Hitler era were brought back, with a focus on building up industry in the East. Factory towns sprung up to support a growing (albeit very limited) industrial base, something that Heydrich hoped would eventually allow for the full economic integration of the East with the German heartland. Of course, every steel mill, power plant and railway was built on the bones of thousands of slave laborers.

The Hermann Göring Hydroelectric Power Station, built along the Wolga River, was infamous for the amount of lives lost during its construction​

While Heydrich did build some industry in the East, he hardly ignored the agricultural sector. More than either Hitler or Göring, Heydrich fetishized the ideal of the independent, racially pure smallholding farmer. These farmers, many of them veterans of the German-Soviet War and their children, were the backbone of colonization efforts in the East. Under Heydrich, smallholders found renewed support, as large farms were broken up and made into smaller homesteads. However, the East's agricultural output was low, even when supplemented by large slave plantations. The small farms Heydrich obsessed over were grossly inefficient, hardly producing enough to sustain a continental empire.

The troubles in the German agricultural sector (and indeed, the whole economy) were made painfully apparent in the summer of 1962. Unusually hot temperatures mixed with severe drought to destroy most of the harvests in the East. When government-mandated quotas went unfulfilled, local enforcers went to take the foodstuffs by force. Gestapo agents confiscated the food supplies of thousands of smallholding farmers, leaving them with nothing to eat over the winter. Famine quickly set in, killing nearly four million people and causing many more to pack up and head west to find work in the factories.

These migrants, often young men, found little work in the German heartland. The Reich's poor economic growth meant that few new factories were being built outside of the East, and migrants took to begging on the streets for food and money. When, inevitably, begging failed, migrants took to less savory methods to feed and clothe their families. The crime rate in Germany spiked, and the slums surrounding Berlin, Munich, Leipzig and Königsberg soon became havens of murder, rape and thievery.

Nazi authorities did what they could to stem the westward flow. Checkpoints and roadblocks were set up to catch migrants, and Gestapo agents cleared out slums with deadly force. Still, the issue persisted, and it soon became policy to imprison all unemployed men between the ages of 16 and 40. These unfortunate prisoners were separated from their families, taken to the East and forced to work on plantations alongside the Untermenschen.

Unsurprisingly, this solution caused a great deal of anger. In 1965, chain gangs formed by forced laborers staged no less than eighteen revolts against SS authorities, in one case taking over a camp for two months before order could be restored. Violence was also directed at Jews, Slavs, Armenians and others imprisoned in the camps. Ethnic strife was often so severe that Germans had to be physically separated from other ethnic groups at all times.

All this reflected an economy that had trouble keeping up with the devastation of war and the demands of empire. Hitler's economic program in the 1930s depended on plunder from total war to sustain itself, and without that the economy had trouble functioning, let alone growing. The victories in war had given Germany a new lease on life, but it merely delayed the inevitable. The troubles of the 1960s were merely the beginning of an "Era of Tears:" a long, protracted period of economic decline and rising social strife. Even as the Reich found great victory abroad, the seeds of its destruction were being planted at home.