Bookmark1995
Banned
Slay the Silver? It's cool, but how do you tie that to Nazis?
How about "Down with the Reich!"
Determined to Destroy Us - An Axis Victory Cold War TL
- Thread starter SirPaperweight
- Start date
Slay the Silver? It's cool, but how do you tie that to Nazis?
How about "Down with the Reich!"
Bookmark1995
Banned
Yeah, but their not around right now to mock.
Oh, I just thought of another idea. In light of the black uniforms the SS wears, Americans could say "black out!"
The Silver Shirts weren't part of America First. They were part of the Silver Legion of America.
Their symbol was the letter L, with their flag being a silver field with a red L in the upper left corner.
The red L supposedly stood for Loyalty (to the United States), Liberation (from materialism), and Legion (the Silver Legion itself).
The Silver Legion took a hit when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, and completely fell apart once Germany and Italy declared war on the United States.
The Silver Legion would have been around for . . . A defector shared information on the Holocaust in 53, and in this timeline Japan didn't attack until 1955 . . . So they would have been around for 20 to 23 years more or less unmolested. Though after those two events their survival as an organization would be in question.
That being said, in our timeline they were never really anything more than a fringe group. Even the KKK was more popular than them. Whether or not that would change, at least in the short term, is unknown. Though I think it could be possible that they had a brief period where they gained some popularity due to the successes of Fascism in this timeline.
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The America First Party was an isolationist party that wanted the United States to stay out of world affairs. Isolationism was really popular in the United States, right up until Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Getting dragged into WW2 killed isolationism as a popular ideology, and with it the America First Party.
Their symbol was the letter L, with their flag being a silver field with a red L in the upper left corner.
The red L supposedly stood for Loyalty (to the United States), Liberation (from materialism), and Legion (the Silver Legion itself).
The Silver Legion took a hit when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, and completely fell apart once Germany and Italy declared war on the United States.
The Silver Legion would have been around for . . . A defector shared information on the Holocaust in 53, and in this timeline Japan didn't attack until 1955 . . . So they would have been around for 20 to 23 years more or less unmolested. Though after those two events their survival as an organization would be in question.
That being said, in our timeline they were never really anything more than a fringe group. Even the KKK was more popular than them. Whether or not that would change, at least in the short term, is unknown. Though I think it could be possible that they had a brief period where they gained some popularity due to the successes of Fascism in this timeline.
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The America First Party was an isolationist party that wanted the United States to stay out of world affairs. Isolationism was really popular in the United States, right up until Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Getting dragged into WW2 killed isolationism as a popular ideology, and with it the America First Party.
I can only imagine using that insult having a considerable chance of going very, very badly due to one simple reason: The American South.
I've been reading the discussion about the plausibility of America's swing to interventionism, and I want to explain my reasoning. IOTL, American isolationism lost a lot of popularity in the years leading up to Pearl Harbor. Sure, Americans were initially interested in neutrality, but very quickly recognized the German threat for what it was, especially after the fall of France. Indeed, almost 90% of respondents in a poll conducted in the summer of 1940 stated that in the event of an Axis victory, Americans should "arm to the teeth at any expense." Two-thirds believed that a German victory would put America in danger. There was a large shift away from isolationism in the two years before Pearl Harbor, one that I think would continue through the Forties ITTL. I don't see how that's implausible, to be honest.
Pearl Harbor did a lot to convince isolationists that they were wrong, sure, but they were already squarely in the minority by that time anyway.
Pearl Harbor did a lot to convince isolationists that they were wrong, sure, but they were already squarely in the minority by that time anyway.
Bookmark1995
Banned
I think what you mean to say is that while the American public was isolationist, the majority were not head-in-the-sand Lindbergh isolationists. Many did understand the danger of Nazi Germany, and believed that some kind of action would be needed.
That's why Roosevelt OTL could push for a peacetime draft and do Lend Lease, as the public understood the need to be prepared.
Burton K Wheeler has lost public respect ITTL for doing NOTHING and allowing the Nazis and the Japanese to gain the power they did. Liberals blame him for the death of millions of people, while conservatives blame him for allowing two very dangerous enemies to threaten American interests and sovereignty.
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@SirPaperweight @Spartacus1224
I'll write something up, RL is just hectic at the moment (there is either great celebration in the future or disappointment) and I want to get my ducks in a row, so to speak. I haven't forgotten, in any case.
I'll write something up, RL is just hectic at the moment (there is either great celebration in the future or disappointment) and I want to get my ducks in a row, so to speak. I haven't forgotten, in any case.
Bookmark1995
Banned
What exactly is the policy America and its allies have toward German and other Europeans refugees? Not just the people the Nazis have singled out for mass murder and/or enslavement, but ethnic groups made second class citizens and even Aryan people who can't stand living under the Nazi heel. Will the Rio Pact accept people wanting out of fascist Europe?
If you're say, a German tried to reach the UK by taking a raft across the English Channel, would the authorities grant that person asylum, or would they deport them out of a Germanophobic contempt? If you were a Dutch person wanting to keep your ethnic identity, would US authorities be more sympathetic?
And is Germany increasingly subjecting its population to North Korean restrictions on movement? If a German person who try and flee to England and other Rio Pact countries, would their families all end shipped off to a concentration camp?
If you're say, a German tried to reach the UK by taking a raft across the English Channel, would the authorities grant that person asylum, or would they deport them out of a Germanophobic contempt? If you were a Dutch person wanting to keep your ethnic identity, would US authorities be more sympathetic?
And is Germany increasingly subjecting its population to North Korean restrictions on movement? If a German person who try and flee to England and other Rio Pact countries, would their families all end shipped off to a concentration camp?
Generally, Germans are accepted, although they are treated with suspicion. Ethnic groups persecuted by the Germans receive much more sympathy. Worth noting that there aren't many Axis refugees in the Rio Pact; it's hard to cross the Channel or trek across the formerly Russian wilderness.
Oh, absolutely.
Chapter XXVIII: Dixie Defiant
Chapter XXVIII: Dixie Defiant
For a time, it seemed that a consensus was forming around civil rights in America. The Republican Party, which championed equality of the races, was dominant in a way not seen since the 1920s. The Democrats, meanwhile, faced internal bickering that prevented the formation of a unified segregationist resistance. By 1960, legal racism was mostly gone, and many believed that social discrimination would soon fade away as well.
Oh, how wrong that view was.
The troubles started with Earl Warren's difficult four years in office. On foreign policy, the Warren administration was a success; the Jackson Plan successfully opened up new Asian markets to American goods, swaying those countries into the American bloc in the process. Additionally, the US took a hard line against the Germans, a position that was popular at home. However, in July 1957 the economy slipped into a recession, with unemployment reaching 7.6% by January 1958. In response, Warren proposed a slew of federal funding increases, most especially for education, infrastructure and healthcare. However, fiscal conservatives in the GOP refused to cooperate, and Congressional Democrats did not want to give the Republicans a victory before the 1958 and 1960 elections. The plan never got off the ground, embarrassing the White House just before the midterms.
Indeed, in 1958 the Democrats took back both houses of Congress, doing especially well in the North, where they reversed Republican gains in the region during the Dewey administration. This victory had the effect of flooding the Democratic Party with pro-civil rights liberals, throwing the balance of power in the party away from the South. Thus, the nation looked on to 1960; Warren was an unpopular president leading a united party, while the Democrats were still plagued by factionalism. The candidates for the Democratic nomination were Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Johnson of Texas, Senator John F. Kennedy of Massachusetts (who survived the Democratic loss of the North unscathed), Senator George Smathers of Florida, Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson of Washington and Senator Strom Thurmond of South Carolina. The "Battle of the Five Senators" was a long and hard fight; Kennedy's well-organized campaign gave him successes in West Virginia and Wisconsin, but Johnson won victories of his own in Pennsylvania, New Hampshire and Illinois. Jackson swept California and Oregon while Southern Democrats overwhelmingly supported Thurmond's campaign.
Democrats entered the convention without a clear winner. Smathers dropped out on the first day, giving his votes to his friend Kennedy. However, Kennedy lacked the delegates to secure the nomination, especially after Jackson bowed out of the race on the third day, giving his delegates to Johnson. Thurmond, angry at Johnson for "betraying" his native South by permitting the Civil Rights Act, attempted to compromise with Kennedy on civil rights. However, Kennedy was even less receptive to Thurmond's beliefs than Johnson, and so he left the race on day four without pledging his delegates to any candidate in particular. Ultimately, Lyndon Johnson won the nomination, further angering Southerners by choosing Henry Jackson to be his running mate (his first choice, Kennedy, refused).
That was not the last Johnson would hear of Strom Thurmond, however. The South Carolina Senator announced his own run for the presidency shortly after the Democratic National Convention, with Harry F. Byrd as his running mate. His hope was that he would steal the South from the more liberal Johnson and force either Johnson or Warren to compromise with him on segregation and civil rights. Indeed, for a third party candidate he polled extremely well - Southerners were furious that the convention nominated a candidate that had "betrayed" the South by not putting up a fight against the cause of civil rights. Warren seemed like hardly a viable alternative.
Strom Thurmond entered the race as an independent in order to steal the South from the Democrats and throw the election to Congress
The election was extremely close. Johnson received almost no support from Southern Democrats, but made gains in the North due to Warren's unpopularity. Warren and Johnson ran neck and neck while Thurmond sat at a distant but respectable third. Pundits deemed the race too close to call until well into the night of November 8. Would Johnson find himself unable to break the Republican hold on the North, and end up with a third place finish in the Electoral College? Would Warren do well only in the West? Could Thurmond even win enough states to make a difference?
In the end, the result shocked everyone. Strom Thurmond outperformed the polls, winning 17.64% of the vote and 92 electoral votes, all from the South. Warren won 40.56% of the vote and 202 electoral votes, primarily from the GOP stronghold of the West. Johnson eked out a very narrow popular vote victory with 40.57% and 243 electoral votes. He barely won New Jersey, but lost Illinois by about 3,000 votes, thus keeping him from an outright victory in the Electoral College. Thus, the election would be decided in the House of Representatives.
Johnson won the popular vote by a margin of only 7,316 votes.
Both houses of Congress had Democratic majorities, but Southerners backed Thurmond overwhelmingly, keeping Johnson from getting the support he needed. Thurmond's demands were no less than the repeal of the Civil Rights Acts of 1955 and 1956 and the Voting Rights Act of 1955. Johnson outright refused. The Southerners turned next to Warren, but he rebuked them as well. America was left with a crisis. No candidate could get a majority of the state delegations, and nobody was willing to budge on the issue of civil rights. Luckily, the Senate, only allowed to pick between the top two candidates, managed to pick Henry Jackson as vice president, giving the country a leader until the impasse could be resolved.
Johnson supporters immediately tried to pry some Southern delegations from Thurmond, with little success. Segregationists had an immense power; they would not squander their chance now. Johnson or Warren would bend the knee to segregation, or else there would be no president of the United States. As the new year passed, the nation, and indeed the world, was growing ever more restless. Public opinion - outside the South at least - was decidedly against Thurmond, who the public believed was holding the nation hostage to bring back a dead system. Congress was fraught with anger and fear. Supporters of Thurmond began bringing Confederate battle flags to the floor of the House, representing their ironclad commitment to white supremacy.
Inauguration day came and went and there was still no president. Henry Jackson was sworn in as acting president in a quiet ceremony hidden from the public eye. Behind the scenes, Johnson and Warren tried desperately to win the presidency, without success. Eventually, the nation grew fed up with Southern obstinacy, and Warren invited Johnson to a private meeting to discuss the crisis. Warren saw the writing on the wall and agreed to drop out of the race, preferring a pro-civil rights liberal to a conservative segregationist. On February 4, Earl Warren officially ended his candidacy for reelection, endorsing Lyndon B. Johnson as "by far the superior alternative to the stubborn and reactionary man holding the presidency hostage." Two days later, the House of Representatives chose Johnson to be the next president. The political crisis was over, but America's troubles had just begun.
Henry Martin Jackson, briefly Acting President of the United States
Lyndon Baines Johnson, 36th President of the United States of America
For a time, it seemed that a consensus was forming around civil rights in America. The Republican Party, which championed equality of the races, was dominant in a way not seen since the 1920s. The Democrats, meanwhile, faced internal bickering that prevented the formation of a unified segregationist resistance. By 1960, legal racism was mostly gone, and many believed that social discrimination would soon fade away as well.
Oh, how wrong that view was.
The troubles started with Earl Warren's difficult four years in office. On foreign policy, the Warren administration was a success; the Jackson Plan successfully opened up new Asian markets to American goods, swaying those countries into the American bloc in the process. Additionally, the US took a hard line against the Germans, a position that was popular at home. However, in July 1957 the economy slipped into a recession, with unemployment reaching 7.6% by January 1958. In response, Warren proposed a slew of federal funding increases, most especially for education, infrastructure and healthcare. However, fiscal conservatives in the GOP refused to cooperate, and Congressional Democrats did not want to give the Republicans a victory before the 1958 and 1960 elections. The plan never got off the ground, embarrassing the White House just before the midterms.
Indeed, in 1958 the Democrats took back both houses of Congress, doing especially well in the North, where they reversed Republican gains in the region during the Dewey administration. This victory had the effect of flooding the Democratic Party with pro-civil rights liberals, throwing the balance of power in the party away from the South. Thus, the nation looked on to 1960; Warren was an unpopular president leading a united party, while the Democrats were still plagued by factionalism. The candidates for the Democratic nomination were Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Johnson of Texas, Senator John F. Kennedy of Massachusetts (who survived the Democratic loss of the North unscathed), Senator George Smathers of Florida, Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson of Washington and Senator Strom Thurmond of South Carolina. The "Battle of the Five Senators" was a long and hard fight; Kennedy's well-organized campaign gave him successes in West Virginia and Wisconsin, but Johnson won victories of his own in Pennsylvania, New Hampshire and Illinois. Jackson swept California and Oregon while Southern Democrats overwhelmingly supported Thurmond's campaign.
Democrats entered the convention without a clear winner. Smathers dropped out on the first day, giving his votes to his friend Kennedy. However, Kennedy lacked the delegates to secure the nomination, especially after Jackson bowed out of the race on the third day, giving his delegates to Johnson. Thurmond, angry at Johnson for "betraying" his native South by permitting the Civil Rights Act, attempted to compromise with Kennedy on civil rights. However, Kennedy was even less receptive to Thurmond's beliefs than Johnson, and so he left the race on day four without pledging his delegates to any candidate in particular. Ultimately, Lyndon Johnson won the nomination, further angering Southerners by choosing Henry Jackson to be his running mate (his first choice, Kennedy, refused).
That was not the last Johnson would hear of Strom Thurmond, however. The South Carolina Senator announced his own run for the presidency shortly after the Democratic National Convention, with Harry F. Byrd as his running mate. His hope was that he would steal the South from the more liberal Johnson and force either Johnson or Warren to compromise with him on segregation and civil rights. Indeed, for a third party candidate he polled extremely well - Southerners were furious that the convention nominated a candidate that had "betrayed" the South by not putting up a fight against the cause of civil rights. Warren seemed like hardly a viable alternative.
Strom Thurmond entered the race as an independent in order to steal the South from the Democrats and throw the election to Congress
The election was extremely close. Johnson received almost no support from Southern Democrats, but made gains in the North due to Warren's unpopularity. Warren and Johnson ran neck and neck while Thurmond sat at a distant but respectable third. Pundits deemed the race too close to call until well into the night of November 8. Would Johnson find himself unable to break the Republican hold on the North, and end up with a third place finish in the Electoral College? Would Warren do well only in the West? Could Thurmond even win enough states to make a difference?
In the end, the result shocked everyone. Strom Thurmond outperformed the polls, winning 17.64% of the vote and 92 electoral votes, all from the South. Warren won 40.56% of the vote and 202 electoral votes, primarily from the GOP stronghold of the West. Johnson eked out a very narrow popular vote victory with 40.57% and 243 electoral votes. He barely won New Jersey, but lost Illinois by about 3,000 votes, thus keeping him from an outright victory in the Electoral College. Thus, the election would be decided in the House of Representatives.
Johnson won the popular vote by a margin of only 7,316 votes.
Both houses of Congress had Democratic majorities, but Southerners backed Thurmond overwhelmingly, keeping Johnson from getting the support he needed. Thurmond's demands were no less than the repeal of the Civil Rights Acts of 1955 and 1956 and the Voting Rights Act of 1955. Johnson outright refused. The Southerners turned next to Warren, but he rebuked them as well. America was left with a crisis. No candidate could get a majority of the state delegations, and nobody was willing to budge on the issue of civil rights. Luckily, the Senate, only allowed to pick between the top two candidates, managed to pick Henry Jackson as vice president, giving the country a leader until the impasse could be resolved.
Johnson supporters immediately tried to pry some Southern delegations from Thurmond, with little success. Segregationists had an immense power; they would not squander their chance now. Johnson or Warren would bend the knee to segregation, or else there would be no president of the United States. As the new year passed, the nation, and indeed the world, was growing ever more restless. Public opinion - outside the South at least - was decidedly against Thurmond, who the public believed was holding the nation hostage to bring back a dead system. Congress was fraught with anger and fear. Supporters of Thurmond began bringing Confederate battle flags to the floor of the House, representing their ironclad commitment to white supremacy.
Inauguration day came and went and there was still no president. Henry Jackson was sworn in as acting president in a quiet ceremony hidden from the public eye. Behind the scenes, Johnson and Warren tried desperately to win the presidency, without success. Eventually, the nation grew fed up with Southern obstinacy, and Warren invited Johnson to a private meeting to discuss the crisis. Warren saw the writing on the wall and agreed to drop out of the race, preferring a pro-civil rights liberal to a conservative segregationist. On February 4, Earl Warren officially ended his candidacy for reelection, endorsing Lyndon B. Johnson as "by far the superior alternative to the stubborn and reactionary man holding the presidency hostage." Two days later, the House of Representatives chose Johnson to be the next president. The political crisis was over, but America's troubles had just begun.
Henry Martin Jackson, briefly Acting President of the United States
Lyndon Baines Johnson, 36th President of the United States of America
Oh dear. America is in for some tough times ahead. If Germany wants to take advantage now is the time.
Hoping to see a Conservative Republican win soon
Hoping to see a Conservative Republican win soon
Yeah, sure they will be a conservative Republican elected after having the entire US governement blocked by Conservative (yes Democrats one but still Conservative)
Bookmark1995
Banned
I wish it were Henry Jackson that would be president, not LBJ. I fear that Johnson put America in an even worse military quagmire than OTL, because of how much dangerous the Nazis are.
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I wonder what the Nazis thought of this brief political crisis. Did they believe there would be a bloody power struggle among the "Mongrel American government"? And did they cross their fingers, hoping for Thurmond to get the job.
What about through the other Axis nations? Could a person go to Italy and try and sneak aboard a cargo ship? Does the Rio Pact maintain diplomatic ties with other Axis nations? If they did, maybe their could be a few diplomats, like the Vietnamese guy, who could provide passports.
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I wonder what the Nazis thought of this brief political crisis. Did they believe there would be a bloody power struggle among the "Mongrel American government"? And did they cross their fingers, hoping for Thurmond to get the job.
What about through the other Axis nations? Could a person go to Italy and try and sneak aboard a cargo ship? Does the Rio Pact maintain diplomatic ties with other Axis nations? If they did, maybe their could be a few diplomats, like the Vietnamese guy, who could provide passports.