Determined to Destroy Us - An Axis Victory Cold War TL
- Thread starter SirPaperweight
- Start date
Why, though? This isn't AANW.
No disrespect to that, of course, but this is a somewhat different timeline. Let's judge it on its own merits and not compare it to others.
how am I judging it to AANW I thought it was pretty clear I'm just taking quotes that relate to the discussion
Sorry if I misread it, then. Mea culpa!
As for the larger point, I started a thread a few months ago speculating on the population of a victorious Reich and I think the consensus was 250+ million was definitely doable, especially given the Germanization of much of western and northern, and varying degrees of eastern, Europe.
So I decided to take a quick look at the risks one faced by having lots of children.
Studies have indicated that having four or more children will, due to changes brought about by pregnancy, increase the risk of heart disease.
Those same studies also said that having zero children, or just one child, also increased the risk of heart disease, with an implied sweet spot of two or three children being what will make you less likely to be struck down by heart disease.
Of course, that just increases the risk. Most women can still be expected to live long enough to see their children reach adulthood and for themselves to become grandmothers. And considering the obsession the Nazis had with ensuring the German people were physically fit, among other things, I don't think Germany is likely to have some sort of crisis where their women are all dropping dead from too many babies.
Also . . . Here is the medal they gave out to women that had four or more children . . . As long as the women in question were also considered to be a prime example of motherhood. Because the Nazis got really mad at those they considered to be terrible mothers. (Neglecting their children. Infidelity to their husbands. That kind of thing.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Honour_of_the_German_Mother
Studies have indicated that having four or more children will, due to changes brought about by pregnancy, increase the risk of heart disease.
Those same studies also said that having zero children, or just one child, also increased the risk of heart disease, with an implied sweet spot of two or three children being what will make you less likely to be struck down by heart disease.
Of course, that just increases the risk. Most women can still be expected to live long enough to see their children reach adulthood and for themselves to become grandmothers. And considering the obsession the Nazis had with ensuring the German people were physically fit, among other things, I don't think Germany is likely to have some sort of crisis where their women are all dropping dead from too many babies.
Also . . . Here is the medal they gave out to women that had four or more children . . . As long as the women in question were also considered to be a prime example of motherhood. Because the Nazis got really mad at those they considered to be terrible mothers. (Neglecting their children. Infidelity to their husbands. That kind of thing.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Honour_of_the_German_Mother
Bookmark1995
Banned
Nazi society's desire to maintain women as subservient to man, and force them to have lots of kids could have tremendous psychological consequences as well for women. I can imagine them popping more pills than American women do.
I suppose it would depend on how successful they are with their indoctrination efforts. There would absolutely be women dissatisfied with the expectations placed upon them, but at the same time there are women who genuinely enjoy being homemakers.
They're going to grow up being indoctrinated to believe that motherhood is the most noble and good goal they could or should aspire to be. I imagine that would stick with most of them simply because they won't be taught anything else.
They're going to grow up being indoctrinated to believe that motherhood is the most noble and good goal they could or should aspire to be. I imagine that would stick with most of them simply because they won't be taught anything else.
As far as the role of women, the Nazis really weren't that far off some of the traditional German values. "Kinder, Kirche, Kuche" (children, church, kitchen) was a very common German saying. If the average German woman has four children, between that and the Aryanization of selected children form the east as well appropriate populations from Western/Northern Europe you will see a rapid population growth in whatever territory is considered German - Großdeutsches Reich and Ostland. The strain on women having 4+ children is not as severe as some people think it is, from a strictly medical standpoint. With proper medical care and diet, which the Nazis attempted OTL and ITTL would be readily available, unless there are specific issues with a woman pregnancy/delivery is not the issue. For those who are parents, a house full of young kids is where it becomes a frazzle. IMHO between child care centers and slave nannies/household help, the workload, at least for middle class and up women will be less and even for working class there will be assistance - this was something the Nazis were serious about.
Of course you also have the whole Lebensborn idea.
Of course you also have the whole Lebensborn idea.
I'm not so sure about this. Rwanda and Kenya both had a total fertility rate over 8 in 1970 and I doubt they all had access to good medical infrastructure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...dencies_by_total_fertility_rate#1970_and_2014
Chapter XXIX: Crisis in the Capital
Chapter XXIX: Crisis in the Capital
On September 9, 1961, Germany faced another political crisis. In the last years of Göring's life, his morphine addiction became increasingly debilitating. The stresses of absolute power led him to take increasingly dangerous doses, and in the spring and summer of 1961 he found himself in the hospital no less than seven times. Doctors tried to convince him to stop, but the Führer wouldn't budge; his addiction was just too strong. On September 8, his ailment got the better of him, and he was taken to the hospital for the eighth and last time. His body suffered severe asphyxia as a result of his overdose, and doctors could not save him. In the early hours of September 9, Hermann Göring died.
The Führer's death set off a power struggle in the Third Reich. Unlike Hitler, Göring had not named a successor, and so his sudden death left a vacuum of power. Those closest to him began maneuvering to gain power, but only four men had a real chance: Heinrich Himmler, Reichsführer of the SS; Reinhard Heydrich, Director of the Reich Main Security Office, head of the Gestapo and technically Himmler's subordinate; Alfred Rosenberg, Reich Minister of the East; and Joachim von Ribbentrop, Foreign Minister. Everyone else fell into one of the four camps. However, it was clear from the outset that the real two contenders for power were Himmler and Heydrich. Rosenberg was largely sidelined by his more politically-deft rivals, and Ribbentrop simply didn't have enough clout amongst the Nazi elite to win over many supporters.
Himmler began by overrunning Berlin with SS troops on September 17 (the day after Göring's funeral), hoping to seize power before anyone else could react. However, Heydrich was ready with loyal Gestapo agents already placed across the city. A brief skirmish resulted in 7 deaths, but the situation remained unresolved. The next day, Rosenberg privately called Heydrich and pledged loyalty to him, a move influenced by the former's personal antipathy toward Himmler. On September 19, Heinrich Himmler quietly disappeared. His fate has been lost to history, although he is presumed dead. The following day, Ribbentrop pledged loyalty to Heydrich, ending the succession crisis.
Reinhard Heydrich, Third Führer of the Third Reich
Heydrich was in many respects a far more brutal ruler than Göring or even Hitler. He was among the main architects of the Holocaust; he organized the Einsatzgruppen, which during the German-Soviet War followed the Wehrmacht, rounding up and executing Jews. As head of the Gestapo, he directed much of the implementation of the Holocaust, often overseeing the deportations of tens of thousands to concentration camps in the East. Adolf Hitler remarked that Heydrich was "the man with the iron heart." His reputation as a fearsome man extended beyond the Axis; upon learning of Heydrich's ascension to the throne, Senator Richard Nixon remarked that "a man comparable to Satan has clawed his way to the highest rungs of power."
More immediately, Heydrich understood that his base of power was far more tenuous than his predecessor's. He lacked the legitimacy of having been named heir, and so needed to consolidate his power through other means. He ordered the SS, now headed by Adolf Eichmann, to imprison a laundry list of Nazi leaders deemed too disloyal to the new Führer. The purge included thousands, who were imprisoned and executed for crimes real or perceived. Among the dead were Rudolf Diels, Karl Dönitz, Erwin Rommel, Joseph Goebbles, Josef "Sepp" Dietrich, Karl Fiehler, Alfred Jodl and many, many more.
Heydrich's vicious massacres of political opponents were coupled with an intensifying of the Holocaust. The homesteading programs were expanded and efforts to encourage ethnic Germans to have many children were redoubled. Meanwhile, the number of slaves was steadily increased to 20 million, above 1959 levels. To achieve this, ethnic minorities slated for death were transferred to forced labor and slaves were permitted to have a limited number of children. Heydrich justified the expansion of slavery by arguing that the East was still undeveloped and underpopulated, and required a genetically-inferior underclass to support the region's transition into a modern, industrialized part of Germany.
The new Führer also expanded the German police state. Indoctrination of children reached feverous levels during his rule, with National Socialist beliefs about race, class and society at large hammered into their heads almost from birth. German intellectual and cultural freedom, which experienced a slight liberalization during the Göring years, were clamped down upon with vigor. Those expressing even slight political deviation disappeared and were shipped off to concentration camps. All media was made to espouse Nazi Party views.
Like during the Göring liberalizations, religion played a key role in the crackdowns on cultural freedom. Catholics and Protestants were subject to an aggressive purge, with tens of thousands imprisoned or executed. Additionally, nearly two-thirds of all the Catholic and Protestant churches within the Reich were closed down. The remainder were carefully monitored to ensure compliance with national socialism. "Positive Christianity," the Nazified Christianity that was promoted during the Hitler years, was also discouraged. In its place, Heydrich planned to enforce a single unified religious tradition throughout the Third Reich, a faith that would completely reject the Judeo-Christian conceptions of God. Neopaganism as promoted in the SS was expanded, codified and enforced as the one and only religion for Germany. Nazi neopaganism experienced only limited success, however. Most Germans clung to Christianity of some form, even if they publicly expressed belief in the Nazi cult.
Additionally, Heydrich made no effort to rehabilitate Nazi Germany in the eyes of the American leadership. In fact, he often reveled in the fact that the Americans hated him, saying that "the flea-ridden, starved mutt looks enviously at the strong, well-groomed hunting dog." He ordered a massive expansion of the German missile stockpile, outpacing American missile development and keeping the lead for the remainder of his rule. The expanded arms race also had an effect on the Space Race, with Heydrich taking special interest in the development of the German space program; to him, it was a prestige project that would prove the superiority of the Aryan race.
Ultimately, Heydrich's ascension marked a drastic change in the direction of the Nazi state. Göring's rule saw something of a loosening of Hitler's most vicious stances. The police state was loosened and in foreign affairs the Reich was less blatantly aggressive. However, Heydrich intended to completely reverse these decisions, and doubled down on national socialist brutality both at home and abroad. The consequences remain with the world to this day.
On September 9, 1961, Germany faced another political crisis. In the last years of Göring's life, his morphine addiction became increasingly debilitating. The stresses of absolute power led him to take increasingly dangerous doses, and in the spring and summer of 1961 he found himself in the hospital no less than seven times. Doctors tried to convince him to stop, but the Führer wouldn't budge; his addiction was just too strong. On September 8, his ailment got the better of him, and he was taken to the hospital for the eighth and last time. His body suffered severe asphyxia as a result of his overdose, and doctors could not save him. In the early hours of September 9, Hermann Göring died.
The Führer's death set off a power struggle in the Third Reich. Unlike Hitler, Göring had not named a successor, and so his sudden death left a vacuum of power. Those closest to him began maneuvering to gain power, but only four men had a real chance: Heinrich Himmler, Reichsführer of the SS; Reinhard Heydrich, Director of the Reich Main Security Office, head of the Gestapo and technically Himmler's subordinate; Alfred Rosenberg, Reich Minister of the East; and Joachim von Ribbentrop, Foreign Minister. Everyone else fell into one of the four camps. However, it was clear from the outset that the real two contenders for power were Himmler and Heydrich. Rosenberg was largely sidelined by his more politically-deft rivals, and Ribbentrop simply didn't have enough clout amongst the Nazi elite to win over many supporters.
Himmler began by overrunning Berlin with SS troops on September 17 (the day after Göring's funeral), hoping to seize power before anyone else could react. However, Heydrich was ready with loyal Gestapo agents already placed across the city. A brief skirmish resulted in 7 deaths, but the situation remained unresolved. The next day, Rosenberg privately called Heydrich and pledged loyalty to him, a move influenced by the former's personal antipathy toward Himmler. On September 19, Heinrich Himmler quietly disappeared. His fate has been lost to history, although he is presumed dead. The following day, Ribbentrop pledged loyalty to Heydrich, ending the succession crisis.
Reinhard Heydrich, Third Führer of the Third Reich
Heydrich was in many respects a far more brutal ruler than Göring or even Hitler. He was among the main architects of the Holocaust; he organized the Einsatzgruppen, which during the German-Soviet War followed the Wehrmacht, rounding up and executing Jews. As head of the Gestapo, he directed much of the implementation of the Holocaust, often overseeing the deportations of tens of thousands to concentration camps in the East. Adolf Hitler remarked that Heydrich was "the man with the iron heart." His reputation as a fearsome man extended beyond the Axis; upon learning of Heydrich's ascension to the throne, Senator Richard Nixon remarked that "a man comparable to Satan has clawed his way to the highest rungs of power."
More immediately, Heydrich understood that his base of power was far more tenuous than his predecessor's. He lacked the legitimacy of having been named heir, and so needed to consolidate his power through other means. He ordered the SS, now headed by Adolf Eichmann, to imprison a laundry list of Nazi leaders deemed too disloyal to the new Führer. The purge included thousands, who were imprisoned and executed for crimes real or perceived. Among the dead were Rudolf Diels, Karl Dönitz, Erwin Rommel, Joseph Goebbles, Josef "Sepp" Dietrich, Karl Fiehler, Alfred Jodl and many, many more.
Heydrich's vicious massacres of political opponents were coupled with an intensifying of the Holocaust. The homesteading programs were expanded and efforts to encourage ethnic Germans to have many children were redoubled. Meanwhile, the number of slaves was steadily increased to 20 million, above 1959 levels. To achieve this, ethnic minorities slated for death were transferred to forced labor and slaves were permitted to have a limited number of children. Heydrich justified the expansion of slavery by arguing that the East was still undeveloped and underpopulated, and required a genetically-inferior underclass to support the region's transition into a modern, industrialized part of Germany.
The new Führer also expanded the German police state. Indoctrination of children reached feverous levels during his rule, with National Socialist beliefs about race, class and society at large hammered into their heads almost from birth. German intellectual and cultural freedom, which experienced a slight liberalization during the Göring years, were clamped down upon with vigor. Those expressing even slight political deviation disappeared and were shipped off to concentration camps. All media was made to espouse Nazi Party views.
Like during the Göring liberalizations, religion played a key role in the crackdowns on cultural freedom. Catholics and Protestants were subject to an aggressive purge, with tens of thousands imprisoned or executed. Additionally, nearly two-thirds of all the Catholic and Protestant churches within the Reich were closed down. The remainder were carefully monitored to ensure compliance with national socialism. "Positive Christianity," the Nazified Christianity that was promoted during the Hitler years, was also discouraged. In its place, Heydrich planned to enforce a single unified religious tradition throughout the Third Reich, a faith that would completely reject the Judeo-Christian conceptions of God. Neopaganism as promoted in the SS was expanded, codified and enforced as the one and only religion for Germany. Nazi neopaganism experienced only limited success, however. Most Germans clung to Christianity of some form, even if they publicly expressed belief in the Nazi cult.
Additionally, Heydrich made no effort to rehabilitate Nazi Germany in the eyes of the American leadership. In fact, he often reveled in the fact that the Americans hated him, saying that "the flea-ridden, starved mutt looks enviously at the strong, well-groomed hunting dog." He ordered a massive expansion of the German missile stockpile, outpacing American missile development and keeping the lead for the remainder of his rule. The expanded arms race also had an effect on the Space Race, with Heydrich taking special interest in the development of the German space program; to him, it was a prestige project that would prove the superiority of the Aryan race.
Ultimately, Heydrich's ascension marked a drastic change in the direction of the Nazi state. Göring's rule saw something of a loosening of Hitler's most vicious stances. The police state was loosened and in foreign affairs the Reich was less blatantly aggressive. However, Heydrich intended to completely reverse these decisions, and doubled down on national socialist brutality both at home and abroad. The consequences remain with the world to this day.
Oh boy. We went from Hitler's full 10 on the crazy scale, to a much more subdued 6 under Goering, and now we've cranked the crazy up passed 10, to 11, and then snapped the knob off. This'll be entertaining/horrifying!
Bookmark1995
Banned
Heydrich just offed the Nazi version of the Old Bolsheviks!
If or when the Reich collapses, those people could be the foundation for the reconstruction of Slavic Europe, if they can be deemed useful enough to keep alive.
The suppression of religious freedom could lay the groundwork for dissent, since even many conservative Germans considered Lutheranism a part of the German character.
Heydrich is in the words of Oscar Wilde, an honest slaveholder, and thus the best one. Because his unabashed evil will only play into the ruin of his works.
I bet one of Heydrich's hobbies is calling his puppet leaders, equally vile people in their own right, to the capital just so he can put them in their place.
RE: My ideal U.S. response* to Heydrich,
"Censeo Germaniam esse delendam, annihilatus quasi culi canes! Morimini ob ignis nuclearis, filii meretricum Teutonicarum!"**
*Good thing I was never a President during the Cold War; my idea of brinkmanship is "Slap them, then slap them harder until they slap back, secure in the knowledge that we had a gun pointed at them under the desk the whole time that I'm ready and willing to use."
**Something about promising mega-death to a German dictator in (admittedly broken) Latin seems fitting to me.
Keep up the good work!
"Censeo Germaniam esse delendam, annihilatus quasi culi canes! Morimini ob ignis nuclearis, filii meretricum Teutonicarum!"**
*Good thing I was never a President during the Cold War; my idea of brinkmanship is "Slap them, then slap them harder until they slap back, secure in the knowledge that we had a gun pointed at them under the desk the whole time that I'm ready and willing to use."
**Something about promising mega-death to a German dictator in (admittedly broken) Latin seems fitting to me.
Keep up the good work!
