List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage
- Thread starter Jonathan
- Start date
‘King of Italy’ was one of the titles of the holy Roman emperor so idk if such a title could be created without stepping on some toes (which belong to fellow Habsburgs)
John III will marry Eleanor here as Manuel can NOT put the wedding between Charles and his daughter Isabella as indispensable condition for the match between his heir and Eleanor if Charles is already married. Henry will surely inherit Burgundy (but I think who he will be called John) and Maximilian will get Milan if the Sforzas are extinct, or possibly Naples or will go in the Church
Last edited:
Why exactly will Maximilian get Milan? He is WAY too low on the succession line to get it in his lifetime. Archbishop it is
Deleted member 147978
Karl V isn't going to send his third and youngest son into the clergy. He had fought France over the rights to the Duchy of Milan nevermind declaring it as a "vacant imperial state" to nullify the Valois claim and others.
Karl V would to anything to make Maximilian "King of Italy" by gifting him the Duchy of Milan plus the Kingdom of Naples.
Joachim not Maximilian...
Frederick III m. Eleanor of Austria(a)
3a. Helene b. 1462
5a. John b. 1466 m. Joanna of Castile(a)
Louis XI m. Charlotte of Savoy(b)
2b. Joachim I b. 1459 m. Mary, Duchess of Burgundy
3b. Louise of France b. 1460 m. Nicholas of Anjou
5b. Jeanne of France b. 1464 m. Louis, duke of Orleans
8b. Francis b. 1472
Frederick III m. Eleanor of Austria(a)
3a. Helene b. 1462
5a. John b. 1466 m. Joanna of Castile(a)
Louis XI m. Charlotte of Savoy(b)
2b. Joachim I b. 1459 m. Mary, Duchess of Burgundy
3b. Louise of France b. 1460 m. Nicholas of Anjou
5b. Jeanne of France b. 1464 m. Louis, duke of Orleans
8b. Francis b. 1472
Last edited:
Ah OK, but...literally...why though...he has heirs galore ITTL, not like IOTL with only one son...
Because he has a large empire and it makes more sense to grant Milan and Naples to his third son to make it easier.
I do not think who Charles will take away Naples from the possessions of the Crown of Aragon if he can give the Duchy of Milan to his younger son after the extinction of the Sforzas… Philip will be King and his brothers Dukes…
Because he has a vacant imperial fief, who he can assign to someone of his choice AND a spare son…
Any particular reason that one of Karl's sons (presumably the oldest) wouldn't be in the running for emperor? Ferdinand would still get Hungary-Bohemia (and theoretically, Württemberg) so its not like he's getting nothing
Perhaps Charles' sons are married to far-away women so they can't logistically be emperor? It's a stupid reason but the only one I can think of
Deleted member 147978
He has two extra heirs (Henry and Maximilian) as only opposed to Philip IOTL. With that in mind, he would be able to split his inheritance among his three sons equally.
Austria was given to Ferdinand, while Philip will NOT have any Imperial possession. In OTL the German Princes more-or-less forced Charles to accept the election of Ferdinand as his successor for preventing a future election of Philip….
POD: Mary of York survives, marries John, King of Denmark.
John, King of Denmark (b. 1455) m. 1484 Mary of York (b. 1467)
1. Elizabeth (b. 1485) m. Arthur Tudor (b. 1486)
2. Edward (b. 1486) m. Katherine of Aragon (b. 1485)
3. Christian (b. 1488) m. Germaine of Foix (b. 1488)
4. Dorothea (b. 1489) m. Charles II, Duke of Savoy (b. 1489)
John, King of Denmark (b. 1455) m. 1484 Mary of York (b. 1467)
1. Elizabeth (b. 1485) m. Arthur Tudor (b. 1486)
2. Edward (b. 1486) m. Katherine of Aragon (b. 1485)
3. Christian (b. 1488) m. Germaine of Foix (b. 1488)
4. Dorothea (b. 1489) m. Charles II, Duke of Savoy (b. 1489)
Last edited:
That was in a scenario where Karl was married to a Portuguese infanta and his kids were being born outside the empire (Felipe II in Valladolid, Maria in Madrid, D. Fernando in Toledo, Juana in Madrid). With Mary/Katherine, the kids might be born in the empire instead. Potentially in Burgundy. After all, Mary/Katherine will make little sense acting as regent in Spain à la Isabel of Portugal here
If Mary marries abroad, then that means Richard III hasn't seized power. Ergo, no Bosworth and Edward V stays King. Mary's son can marry her cousin of York, not a problem, but she won't be marrying Arthur Tudor.
She couldn't marry abroad before he seizes power?
What do you mean by "her cousin of York"? I'm confused
Deleted member 81475
What's meant is that if one of Edward IV's daughters was married to a foreign ruler, Richard wouldn't have attempted his coup. It's one thing to depose your brother's children and declare them illegitimate when they have no allies, it's another entirely to declare another king's wife a bastard when she arguably has a better claim than you do. It's begging for a foreign invasion backed by every domestic noble that hates you and can stand the idea of a (possibly temporary) personal union, or at the very least a long, nasty relationship with a neighbor that touts its pretender status (as England did to France for a century before this).
This scenario might see Richard abuse the regency for personal gain, but he'll eventually yield power to an adult Edward V who will marry (whether to Anne of Brittany or somebody else) and father unquestionably legitimate children - children who could marry their Danish cousins or other princes and princesses.