List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

[Deleted member 147978]

Yes indeed

I see.

 

[Kynan]

Couple pointers:
Caterina of Naples, Giovanna's daughter, is still alive in June 1362 when there are records of an ongoing marriage negotiation for her with Juan I of Aragon IIRC.
Second, Giovanna's fourth husband (Otto) is also Jaime's stepdad. Which means that, under canon law, she'd be marrying her own father. With no kids it was JUST passable, with proof of consummation (namely Charlotte) no dice.
Charlotte's husbands look...weird. A Sicilian match I get and could probably work (although her being heiress to Mallorca will doubtless stick in the Aragonese craw), but Carlo of Durazzo will want at least a token consideration. And IF Charlotte's marrying ANY nephew of Charles V, it'll be Anjou, not Burgundy. Giovanna adopted Charles' brother, Anjou, during a trip to Avignon to meet with Jean II. If she wants a French son-in-law so bad, Anjou is the likely candidate.
And a match for Charlotte's son to Isabeau de France looks almost as odd. Besides being the eldest daughter of the king of France, what benefits does Isabeau bring to the table? France is tearig itself apart, so would be unlikely to help Naples if push came to shove. Naples likewise has no beef with France (if Giovanna stays pro-French). Jean sans Peur (if king-consort of Naples) isn't going to be able to play the same role in French politics as he did OTL (and even THERE Orléans still outfoxed him on the matter of Isabeau's remarriage), so what would lead up to the marriage here?

Ok so, most of the information I got for Joanna's family tree and the whole political situation she was in was based on Nancy Goldstone's biography, which suggests that Catherine died within a year of birth. That's where my information for this came from and if I'm wrong, can you please point me in the direction of that source. I'm really interested in expanding my medieval knowledge base. Any books you'd recommend would be really appreciated. I honestly didn't think about how Joanna marrying a man who had been married to her dead husband's stepmother might impact those negotiations, but you're right that it would probably not go through ATL.

As to the marriages, I was trying to figure out political marriages that could, theoretically, have happened in a scenario where Joanna was acting politically not just on her own accord, but that of a woman with a clear heiress. The Sicilian match seems like the type of match the Papacy would have supported to end Neapolitan/Aragonese aggression and settling that whole conflict, once that ends it kinda moots the point. I assumed that, in the interim, Charles of Durazzo marries Margaret of Durazzo as OTL and thus is unavailable for Charlotte. The Visconti match, again, seemed pretty plausible, with their ambition and Joanna looking for an ally as things get increasingly dicey. I imaged that Azzone, like Andrew of Hungary and Charles of Durazzo in Hungary, is sent to Naples to become culturally accustomed and dies young, leaving Charlotte a widow twice over before hitting her 20s. The John of Burgundy match was more shaky, but by 1381 Louis of Anjou is doubtlessly married, with a son too young for Charlotte, and if Joanna finally bows to a French match for her daughter, the future Duke of Burgundy seemed a likely enough match to me.

I had assumed with the Isabella match that the just might work as a way of maintaining this alliance, but I wasn't entirely sold on it if I'm being honest. I do think that Charlotte probably has a pro-French policy in this scenario, but I do think that if I ever have time to sketch this out more fully, a different bride for her son is probably in order.

Not a surprise considering who is a tree by Kynan…

This is extremely rude and unnecessary. I throw up family trees on here that, generally, I think are fun but doable because I don't really have the time to flesh out timelines and explain my decisions that lead to certain matches and big historical changes. Sometimes I get things wrong, but I am trying my best and attempting to take criticism pretty well (particularly as I have been attempting to branch out from 1500s England as my main knowledge base). Also, there's this weird culture on here that assumed every decision a historical figure makes has to be logical, even if their actions OTL were extremely emotionally based. I sometimes try and bring in that level of human chaos. You don't have to like what I'm producing on here, that's fine. You've given me extremely helpful feedback before and I appreciate that. But please give me a modicum of basic respect.

 

[isabella]

This is extremely rude and unnecessary. I throw up family trees on here that, generally, I think are fun but doable because I don't really have the time to flesh out timelines and explain my decisions that lead to certain matches and big historical changes. Sometimes I get things wrong, but I am trying my best and attempting to take criticism pretty well (particularly as I have been attempting to branch out from 1500s England as my main knowledge base). Also, there's this weird culture on here that assumed every decision a historical figure makes has to be logical, even if their actions OTL were extremely emotionally based. I sometimes try and bring in that level of human chaos. You don't have to like what I'm producing on here, that's fine. You've given me extremely helpful feedback before and I appreciate that. But please give me a modicum of basic respect.

I give that kind respect to you, but I find who all your trees have this kind of inconsistency or unrealistic matches, and you usually ignore if people point that.

 

[Kynan]

I give that kind respect to you, but I find who all your trees have this kind of inconsistency or unrealistic matches, and you usually ignore if people point that.

Ok so...

I forgot to respond to your response to Catherine of Aragon's Revenge, which was based off plans I'd had ages ago for a timeline. Basically, while I get that the concept of Catherine of Aragon marrying Francis I of France in a scenario where in 1520 she's childless is EXTREMELY unlikely, (a) it's not impossible nor even that insane a match once in context, and (b) like many discussions on this website, in a move I've been guilty of in the past, it led to a completely separate scenario being discussed rather than taking the actual subject seriously and engaging with the implications of it. Which is fine for this thread. But what response am I supposed to give to comments that basically boil down to "this idea is idiotic and here's a bunch of completely different ones"? Most of the replacement ideas have already been discussed, in some way or another on this site. I just want, at times, to bring on new ideas and interact with them on their own merits.

To reiterate, that first comment was rude and blatantly disrespectful. It was the first thing I saw when I woke up, because I was excited to see what people said about my family tree and if I could find some new material to explore. Reading the Nancy Goldstone biography got me interested in Neapolitan history. I've often found this site a great way of having sources recommended to me, either by explicit suggestion or reading other people's threads. I enjoy this website, I enjoy getting to be part of discussions, I even enjoy people thinking these trees are stupid but taking the time to explain why they dislike them. But also, this is a minor hobby for me. It's a bit of a creative outlet and some of the trees I throw out there are just a bit insane for the fun of it.I am going to try and do what I used to in providing more context for these family trees and respond more consistently on here. It's easier when I'm on a specific topic rather than this page that tends to swallow up discussions. I try to respond as much as I can, and could definitely do better about acknowledging responses (I have a bad habit of seeing something between work and other stuff and, when I have a free hour or so, forgetting to respond because the notification is gone). But I try to take on board everything that I see on here even if I don't necessarily respond.

But I'm not going to stop having fun with these.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Ok so, most of the information I got for Joanna's family tree and the whole political situation she was in was based on Nancy Goldstone's biography, which suggests that Catherine died within a year of birth. That's where my information for this came from and if I'm wrong, can you please point me in the direction of that source.

I find medlands is usually extraordinarily helpful (as is geneanet) listing potential marriages that were considered OTL.

As to the marriages, I was trying to figure out political marriages that could, theoretically, have happened in a scenario where Joanna was acting politically not just on her own accord, but that of a woman with a clear heiress. The Sicilian match seems like the type of match the Papacy would have supported to end Neapolitan/Aragonese aggression

I suspect that the papacy would be the last persons to endorse it, simply because it made a nice stick to hit whoever back in line. Naples and Sicily agreeing on something...doesn't make for a comfortable neighbour.

The Visconti match, again, seemed pretty plausible, with their ambition and Joanna looking for an ally as things get increasingly dicey. I imaged that Azzone, like Andrew of Hungary and Charles of Durazzo in Hungary, is sent to Naples to become culturally accustomed and dies young, leaving Charlotte a widow twice over before hitting her 20s.

Giovan Galeazzo tried a Valentina to Ladislao the Posthumous pairing, but it fell through because of papal objections IIRC, I struggle to see how Azzone-Charlotte will go over any better. And given that the Neapolitan court has a...shall we say...reputation for consorts dying unnatural deaths...I don't see GG sending his son and heir there. @The Undead Martyr

The John of Burgundy match was more shaky, but by 1381 Louis of Anjou is doubtlessly married, with a son too young for Charlotte, and if Joanna finally bows to a French match for her daughter, the future Duke of Burgundy seemed a likely enough match to me.

I suspect if you want a French match, you could always have Marie d'Anjou (1370-1383) born male and survive. There'd still be an age-gap but not so massive. Or have the duchesse d'Anjou die in childbed with her son in 1377, then let Charlotte marry Anjou instead of Azzone?

 

[Reyne]

POD: Louis Joseph, eldest son of Louis the XVI, survives his illness and the French revolution.

Louis XVII, King of the French (B.1781;D.1849) / Amelia of Hannover, Princess of Great Britain and Ireland (B.1783;D.1842)
Their issue:

- Henri Joseph, Duke of Burgundy (B.1807;D.1863)
- François Joseph, Duke of Chartres (B.1807;D.1874)
- Caroline, Queen of Bavaria (B.1809;D.1860)
- Amelia, Queen of the Two Sicilies (B.1811;D.1873)
- Baudoin, Prince of Condé (B. 1814;D.1844)
- Phillipe, Prince of Joinville (B. 1816;D.1886)
- Marie Thérese, Princess of Greece (1818;D.1870)
- Antoinette, Duchess of Orleans (1819;D.1901)
- Charlotte, Princess of the Netherlands (B. 1823;D.1888)

Henri V, King of the French (B.1807;1874) / Olga Alexandrova, Grand Duchess of Russia (B.1806;D.1854)
Their issue:

- Phillipe Ferdinand, Duke of Luxembourg (B.1833;D.1903)
- Louis François, Count of Charleroi (B.1837;D.1907)
- Clothilde, Queen of Lombardy (B.1839;D.1911)

Phillipe VII, King of the French (B.1833; D.1906) Marie of Hohenzollern-Singmaringen, Princess of Prussia (B.1845;D.1912)
Their Issue:

- Charles Auguste, Duke of Bordeaux (B.1874;D.1940)
- Henri Antoine, Duke of Algiers (B.1876;D.1914)
- Charlotte, Queen of Romania (B. 1879;D.1961)
- Clementine, Queen of Poland (B. 1879;D.1952)
- Caroline, Empress of Mexico (B. 1883;D.1949)

Charles X, King of the French (B.1874;D.1940) Stephanie of Braganza, Princess of Portugal (B.1868;D.1899)
Their Issue:

- Robert Henri, Duke of Chartres and Anjou (B.1896;D. 1971)
- Ferdinand Phillipe, Duke of Saint Joseph and Prince of Cahokie (B.1899;D.1970)

Robert III, King of the French (B.1896;D.1971) Tatiana, Imperial Princess of Russia (B.1897;D:1974)
Their issue:

- Louis Nicolas, Prince of Liége and Duke of Burgundy (B.1923;D.1999)
- Louis Alexandre, Count of Blois (B.1925;D.1997)
- Aliénor, Empress of Germany (B.1929;D.2001)

Louis XVIII, King of the French (B.1923;D.1999) Maria Augusta, Imperial Princess of Mexico (B.1922;D.1997)
Their issue:

- Alexandre Ferdinand, Duke of Normandy and Prince of Oran (B.1950
- Charles Henri, Duke of Orleans and Nancy (B.1954
- Charlotte, Queen of the Netherlands (B.1956;D.2017)
- Marie Louise, Countess of Saint Pol (B. 1957
- Louis Antoine, Count of Provence (B.1957;D.1988)
- Sophie, Archduchess of Austria (B. 1960

Alexandre I, King of the French (B.1950 Anna of Battenberg, Princess of Bulgaria (B.1954
Their Issue:

- Alexandre Auguste, Duke of Gascony (B. 1979;D.1979)

 

[VVD0D95]

POD: Louis Joseph, eldest son of Louis the XVI, survives his illness and the French revolution.

Louis XVII, King of the French (B.1781;D.1849) / Amelia of Hannover, Princess of Great Britain and Ireland (B.1783;D.1842)
Their issue:

- Henri Joseph, Duke of Burgundy (B.1807;D.1863)
- François Joseph, Duke of Chartres (B.1807;D.1874)
- Caroline, Queen of Bavaria (B.1809;D.1860)
- Amelia, Queen of the Two Sicilies (B.1811;D.1873)
- Baudoin, Prince of Condé (B. 1814;D.1844)
- Phillipe, Prince of Joinville (B. 1816;D.1886)
- Marie Thérese, Princess of Greece (1818;D.1870)
- Antoinette, Duchess of Orleans (1819;D.1901)
- Charlotte, Princess of the Netherlands (B. 1823;D.1888)

Henri V, King of the French (B.1807;1874) / Olga Alexandrova, Grand Duchess of Russia (B.1806;D.1854)
Their issue:

- Phillipe Ferdinand, Duke of Luxembourg (B.1833;D.1903)
- Louis François, Count of Charleroi (B.1837;D.1907)
- Clothilde, Queen of Lombardy (B.1839;D.1911)

Phillipe VII, King of the French (B.1833; D.1906) Marie of Hohenzollern-Singmaringen, Princess of Prussia (B.1845;D.1912)
Their Issue:

- Charles Auguste, Duke of Bordeaux (B.1874;D.1940)
- Henri Antoine, Duke of Algiers (B.1876;D.1914)
- Charlotte, Queen of Romania (B. 1879;D.1961)
- Clementine, Queen of Poland (B. 1879;D.1952)
- Caroline, Empress of Mexico (B. 1883;D.1949)

Charles X, King of the French (B.1874;D.1940) Stephanie of Braganza, Princess of Portugal (B.1868;D.1899)
Their Issue:

- Robert Henri, Duke of Chartres and Anjou (B.1896;D. 1971)
- Ferdinand Phillipe, Duke of Saint Joseph and Prince of Cahokie (B.1899;D.1970)

Robert III, King of the French (B.1896;D.1971) Tatiana, Imperial Princess of Russia (B.1897;D:1974)
Their issue:

- Louis Nicolas, Prince of Liége and Duke of Burgundy (B.1923;D.1999)
- Louis Alexandre, Count of Blois (B.1925;D.1997)
- Aliénor, Empress of Germany (B.1929;D.2001)

Louis XVIII, King of the French (B.1923;D.1999) Maria Augusta, Imperial Princess of Mexico (B.1922;D.1997)
Their issue:

- Alexandre Ferdinand, Duke of Normandy and Prince of Oran (B.1950
- Charles Henri, Duke of Orleans and Nancy (B.1954
- Charlotte, Queen of the Netherlands (B.1956;D.2017)
- Marie Louise, Countess of Saint Pol (B. 1957
- Louis Antoine, Count of Provence (B.1957;D.1988)
- Sophie, Archduchess of Austria (B. 1960

Alexandre I, King of the French (B.1950 Anna of Battenberg, Princess of Bulgaria (B.1954
Their Issue:

- Alexandre Auguste, Duke of Gascony (B. 1979;D.1979)

Unlikely that Louis marries Amelia here, simply due to religious issues

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Unlikely that Louis marries Amelia here, simply due to religious issues

Not just that, but a Russian match (when the Bourbons DESPISED the Romanovs), the use of the name "Philippe" and several Orléans titles (such as Chartres, Joinville), the inclusion of extra-territorial titles (prince of Liège), the identifying as a Sigmaringen as a "princess of Prussia" (when the Bourbons would cheerfully slit their wrists at the thought of a marriage between their heir the descendant of an innkeeper (Murat) and a Beauharnais (a family which was fined several times under the Ancien Regime for "aggrandizement" - Josephine's title of "marquise" didn't actually exist. But still her father-in-law and first husband went on calling themselves "marquis de Beauharnais")), not to mention marrying into "new/liberal" monarchies like Mexico, Romania and Greece, means there's A LOT going on that needs to be explained.

 

[Reyne]

Unlikely that Louis marries Amelia here, simply due to religious issues

I agree, it is a bit unlikely, but I always had this idea of Amelia marrying a french expatriate from a very old tl that I read and liked very much.

Not just that, but a Russian match (when the Bourbons DESPISED the Romanovs), the use of the name "Philippe" and several Orléans titles (such as Chartres, Joinville), the inclusion of extra-territorial titles (prince of Liège), the identifying as a Sigmaringen as a "princess of Prussia" (when the Bourbons would cheerfully slit their wrists at the thought of a marriage between their heir the descendant of an innkeeper (Murat) and a Beauharnais (a family which was fined several times under the Ancien Regime for "aggrandizement" - Josephine's title of "marquise" didn't actually exist. But still her father-in-law and first husband went on calling themselves "marquis de Beauharnais")), not to mention marrying into "new/liberal" monarchies like Mexico, Romania and Greece, means there's A LOT going on that needs to be explained.

Louis Joseph, a kid who died before the French revolution even started. His story, now alive, is completely different, and he is raised by escaped constitutionalists in Britain after the Jacobin fallout instead of his exiled uncles in Russia and Austria. I don't know the rules of this thread when it comes to this, but - you know, history changes and people don't exactly follow the same paths at OTL.

In essence, the constitutionalist or post restoration line of the Bourbons don't suffer a 100 hundred day return of Napoleon and liberalize early on, accepting titles such as King of the French and so on. They also, obviously, by the titles that are used variously throught the family tree, as you mentioned, Liege, grab Wallonia. They also don't hate the Romanovs, the Orleans are, well, obviously dimished. They are punished for Egalité's betrayal of Louis the XVI by having most of their properties and titles taken away - that's one of the reason the line last until the modern day - Adelaide d'Orleans and others never push for a Orleans monarchist faction by not even having the resources to do so. The Orleans also end up being removed from France as they will eventually gain a crown outside of it.

The house of Lechtenberg has been pretty well established by this point - their marriages to Bavaria solidified them and so did their marriages to Portugal. In a France not antagonistic towards Germany because it already has a big chunk of what it wants, Wallonia and Luxembourg, calming tensions down is much more important than Josephine de Beauharnais and her husband being arrogant retards 60 years ago. Even ultra converstive Russia married into the later Beauharnais - I can't see why the Bourbons can't marry a 1/4 Beauharnais. By the time of Henri's reign France has moved on and the necessity of a much larger colonial empire, Louisiana still being in French hands, sees France detatch from Europe, being much more focused on the colonization game.

The French are, as in OTL, particular in their Greek intervention and very supportive as was the Orleans monarchy at a later point. Many Phanariots happen to be in France and since Leopold (The King of Belgium who becomes King of Greece in this timeline) and his heirs need official backing and a source of legitimacy, the French give them it in return for influence in the Eastern Meditteranean and as a springboard for their Imperial ambitions in Egypt and the Levant.

Monarchies being new doesn't mean they are liberal. France by 1880 is more "liberal" than both Hohenzollern Romania and Habsburg Mexico.

If you have any more arguments criticisms or questions just ask!

 

[VVD0D95]

I agree, it is a bit unlikely, but I always had this idea of Amelia marrying a french expatriate from a very old tl that I read and liked very much.


Louis Joseph, a kid who died before the French revolution even started. His story, now alive, is completely different, and he is raised by escaped constitutionalists in Britain after the Jacobin fallout instead of his exiled uncles in Russia and Austria. I don't know the rules of this thread when it comes to this, but - you know, history changes and people don't exactly follow the same paths at OTL.

In essence, the constitutionalist or post restoration line of the Bourbons don't suffer a 100 hundred day return of Napoleon and liberalize early on, accepting titles such as King of the French and so on. They also, obviously, by the titles that are used variously throught the family tree, as you mentioned, Liege, grab Wallonia. They also don't hate the Romanovs, the Orleans are, well, obviously dimished. They are punished for Egalité's betrayal of Louis the XVI by having most of their properties and titles taken away - that's one of the reason the line last until the modern day - Adelaide d'Orleans and others never push for a Orleans monarchist faction by not even having the resources to do so. The Orleans also end up being removed from France as they will eventually gain a crown outside of it.

The house of Lechtenberg has been pretty well established by this point - their marriages to Bavaria solidified them and so did their marriages to Portugal. In a France not antagonistic towards Germany because it already has a big chunk of what it wants, Wallonia and Luxembourg, calming tensions down is much more important than Josephine de Beauharnais and her husband being arrogant retards 60 years ago. Even ultra converstive Russia married into the later Beauharnais - I can't see why the Bourbons can't marry a 1/4 Beauharnais. By the time of Henri's reign France has moved on and the necessity of a much larger colonial empire, Louisiana still being in French hands, sees France detatch from Europe, being much more focused on the colonization game.

The French are, as in OTL, particular in their Greek intervention and very supportive as was the Orleans monarchy at a later point. Many Phanariots happen to be in France and since Leopold (The King of Belgium who becomes King of Greece in this timeline) and his heirs need official backing and a source of legitimacy, the French give them it in return for influence in the Eastern Meditteranean and as a springboard for their Imperial ambitions in Egypt and the Levant.

Monarchies being new doesn't mean they are liberal. France by 1880 is more "liberal" than both Hohenzollern Romania and Habsburg Mexico.

If you have any more arguments criticisms or questions just ask!

Thing is, Louis won't likely be fleeing to Britain, his family will try and get him to where they are, be it Austria or Russia, and also, I can't see the Bourbons accepting the reduced title of King of the French. Otl, when they were restored they took the title King of France. I think they'd keep that title. They don't just rule the people but the land.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Louis Joseph, a kid who died before the French revolution even started.

I know who he is. His father was grieving his death at the time the États-Generaux assrmbled. If Louis XVI ISN'T depressed/distracted by his son's ill health (him NOT having scrofula - and the accompanying health problems - is the ONLY way he's living that long), he might make different moves. I don't expect Louis XVI to turn into a genius overnight, but a grieving person isn't the most rational. They shouldn't be operating heavy machinery, much less be making decisions about the state. A grieving person is likely to either agree to something just so you'll leave them alone or likewise be stubborn in their refusal to agree to a "rational" suggestion.

But assuming things go as OTL:

His story, now alive, is completely different, and he is raised by escaped constitutionalists in Britain after the Jacobin fallout instead of his exiled uncles in Russia and Austria.

So how, exactly, does Louis Joseph (hereafter LJ to avoid confusion with his younger brother), get out of France then?
There was no plan to escape to England OTL. So, we must assume one of the following ways:

• He left with the comte d'Artois in 1789
• He left with the Mesdames in February 1791
• A successful Flight to Varennes in June 1791
• He leaves with the Provences via the Austrian Netherlands in June 1791
• There was a jailbreak at some point after 1791 and LJ gets whisked away to England

Problem with the Artois, Mesdames or Provence argument is where they became separated. None of them would risk such a thing. Varennes being successful means that Louis XVI, Antoinette, Élisabeth, Madame Royal and OTL Louis XVII all get out as well. And the prison break idea is why they took him and not his siblings (at least).

Leaving that aside for the moment (maybe he goes with Lamballe to England in 1791) separating LJ from his uncles/siblings sounds like an awesome idea. In theory. Problem is that separating the "lock and the key" is a nightmare. LJ will come of age in 1794, which is when the shit will start to fly. If LJ makes any proclamation/manifesto that his uncle, Provence, disagrees with? Easy solution will Provence be recalling the recent rumours of Antoinette's infidelity and claim either his nephew is illegitimate or that he's a changeling and that the real dauphin died in infancy/childhood. Neither needs to be true, but Provence HAD a talent for spin. He tricked Marie-Thérèse into believing love letters he wrote her were from her fiancé, that her parents had wanted the match with Angoulême etc etc. Here, if LJ is sitting in London and Marie Thérèse in Vienna/Courland/wherever, who's she going to believe that her real brother is dead and this is an impersonator? Her uncle? Or her supposed brother she can't see in England? And even if she DOES believe it IS her brother, she wouldn't be human if she didn't question why he didn't try to get her out of jail and why the Austrians had to. If she's WITH her brother(s) - Lamballe took the royal children - then Louis XVIII will be showing up in London tres rapide. His "position" doesn't work without his niece/nephew(s).

In essence, the constitutionalist or post restoration line of the Bourbons don't suffer a 100 hundred day return of Napoleon and liberalize early on, accepting titles such as King of the French and so on.

So Napoléon dies shortly after arriving in Elba? Because that's the only way there's no 100 Days happens. His suicide attempt at Fontainebleu COULD work, but that might actually just garner international sympathy for the little king of Rome. Even Wellington was against putting the Bourbons back after the 100 Days.

They also, obviously, by the titles that are used variously throught the family tree, as you mentioned, Liege, grab Wallonia.

Britain will not be happy about that.

They also don't hate the Romanovs,

Why? Louis XVI referred to Catherine the Great as "Madame Potemkin" and "Queen Poniatowski". It was a PERSONAL rather than POLITICAL dislike. Although, TBF, the only people at the Congress of Vienna who really LIKED Alexander I were the kids. And that was because he told a good ghost story. You know your rating is in the crapper when practically ALL of Europe is turned out, and the only people who like you are the kids.

the Orleans are, well, obviously dimished. They are punished for Egalité's betrayal of Louis the XVI by having most of their properties and titles taken away - that's one of the reason the line last until the modern day - Adelaide d'Orleans and others never push for a Orleans monarchist faction by not even having the resources to do so.

Easiest option is simply to have Louis Philippe die before he can marry. The lands then return to the crown and no bad blood necessary.

The Orleans also end up being removed from France as they will eventually gain a crown outside of it.

Ask the Spanish Borbons, getting a crown outside of France might remove you from France but does little to your right to inherit the French crown

The house of Lechtenberg has been pretty well established by this point - their marriages to Bavaria solidified them and so did their marriages to Portugal.

What benefit could a match with a tiny German principality bring France? You want a Beauharnais match go with Maria Amélia de Bragança (Pedro I's daughter) or Eugenia of Sweden. Portugal/Brasil or Sweden can at least bring somethig to the table. If Eugenia's objectionable because of her Bernadotte blood, Marie's cousin, Carola Vasa, might be a better choice.

In a France not antagonistic towards Germany because it already has a big chunk of what it wants, Wallonia and Luxembourg, calming tensions down is much more important than Josephine de Beauharnais and her husband being arrogant retards 60 years ago. Even ultra converstive Russia married into the later Beauharnais - I can't see why the Bourbons can't marry a 1/4 Beauharnais.

Maria Nikolaïevna's marriage was because Nikolai I wanted a French match for her. He offered her to Chambord as well. Then, when Chambord was deposes, he offered her for Maximilian II of Bavaria. She refused because she'd have to convert. Beauharnais was a sort of compromise candidate. And Beauharnais' Bavarian mother kicked up a MASSIVE fit about the fact that he had to agree to his kids being raised Orthodox, them having "Romanovsky" instead of Beauharnais as their surname, that they had to live in Russia, etc etc. Fact is Beauharnais was a "nobody", Marie's OTL husband was the son of a "jumped up knight of the toadstool" as one contemporary called Leo of Coburg. The dauphin/king of France is (as Susan Nagel puts it) "bannerbearer of the longest reigning dynasty in Europe".

By the time of Henri's reign France has moved on and the necessity of a much larger colonial empire, Louisiana still being in French hands,

How'd France get that back? After Napoléon kinda...y'know...sold it to the US? Can't think the US was very happy about France saying "bonjour, you're on my land".

sees France detatch from Europe, being much more focused on the colonization game.

She was OTL and didn't detach, why would she here?

The French are, as in OTL, particular in their Greek intervention and very supportive as was the Orleans monarchy at a later point. Many Phanariots happen to be in France and since Leopold (The King of Belgium who becomes King of Greece in this timeline) and his heirs need official backing and a source of legitimacy, the French give them it in return for influence in the Eastern Meditteranean and as a springboard for their Imperial ambitions in Egypt and the Levant.

Again, sure England, Russia and the Ottomans are THRILLED by this state of affairs.

Monarchies being new doesn't mean they are liberal. France by 1880 is more "liberal" than both Hohenzollern Romania and Habsburg Mexico.

I said new OR liberal, not new AND liberal, slight difference. My point is that France seems to be stepping on a LOT of toes (US with Louisiana, England and the Netherlands with Belgium, Austria/Savoy/their Bourbon cousins with whoever rules Lombardy, Spain with Mexico, Russia and the Ottomans with their designs in Egypt) and seems about as diplomatically isolated as the Second Empire IMO

 

[Reyne]

I know who he is. His father was grieving his death at the time the États-Generaux assrmbled. If Louis XVI ISN'T depressed/distracted by his son's ill health (him NOT having scrofula - and the accompanying health problems - is the ONLY way he's living that long), he might make different moves. I don't expect Louis XVI to turn into a genius overnight, but a grieving person isn't the most rational. They shouldn't be operating heavy machinery, much less be making decisions about the state. A grieving person is likely to either agree to something just so you'll leave them alone or likewise be stubborn in their refusal to agree to a "rational" suggestion.

But assuming things go as OTL:

Things at this point go kind of OTL. LJ's illnesses are of course, eliminated, and Louis XVI does end up behaving "better" in the face of what is happening. Even with a stronger moderate revolutionary and royalist base, however, the hold the radicals had on Paris, their sheer luck and brazen-ness and the way they just quickly took over the National Convention from under everybody isn't. Louis's fear for his life continues and he eventually attempts an "Escape" to Varennes, but he still gets caught, accused and the moderates and royalists lose ground. Antoinette and Louis the XVI are both executed.

So how, exactly, does Louis Joseph (hereafter LJ to avoid confusion with his younger brother), get out of France then?
There was no plan to escape to England OTL. So, we must assume one of the following ways:

• He left with the comte d'Artois in 1789
• He left with the Mesdames in February 1791
• A successful Flight to Varennes in June 1791
• He leaves with the Provences via the Austrian Netherlands in June 1791
• There was a jailbreak at some point after 1791 and LJ gets whisked away to England

Problem with the Artois, Mesdames or Provence argument is where they became separated. None of them would risk such a thing. Varennes being successful means that Louis XVI, Antoinette, Élisabeth, Madame Royal and OTL Louis XVII all get out as well. And the prison break idea is why they took him and not his siblings (at least).

Leaving that aside for the moment (maybe he goes with Lamballe to England in 1791) separating LJ from his uncles/siblings sounds like an awesome idea. In theory. Problem is that separating the "lock and the key" is a nightmare. LJ will come of age in 1794, which is when the shit will start to fly. If LJ makes any proclamation/manifesto that his uncle, Provence, disagrees with? Easy solution will Provence be recalling the recent rumours of Antoinette's infidelity and claim either his nephew is illegitimate or that he's a changeling and that the real dauphin died in infancy/childhood. Neither needs to be true, but Provence HAD a talent for spin. He tricked Marie-Thérèse into believing love letters he wrote her were from her fiancé, that her parents had wanted the match with Angoulême etc etc. Here, if LJ is sitting in London and Marie Thérèse in Vienna/Courland/wherever, who's she going to believe that her real brother is dead and this is an impersonator? Her uncle? Or her supposed brother she can't see in England? And even if she DOES believe it IS her brother, she wouldn't be human if she didn't question why he didn't try to get her out of jail and why the Austrians had to. If she's WITH her brother(s) - Lamballe took the royal children - then Louis XVIII will be showing up in London tres rapide. His "position" doesn't work without his niece/nephew(s).

He leaves with none of those, and indeed, there is a jailbreak orchestrated in 1793 that will be organized by the surviving moderates in hopes of having some leverage when they do escape France. The camp de Mars never happens, and Lafayette and other moderates and even some royalists are able to organize better - and this doesn't allow men like Danton, Marat or Robespierre to witchhunt them like they did. However, after the Brunswick manifesto and the death of Louis XVI shit starts to boil over and Lafayette and others arrange a huge jailbreak and escape that sees them and all the royal kids escape to GB.

Provence will ended show up in Britain but only in late 1794 as he gets tied up in Russia. LJ's reaches maturity, and with the influence the moderates have on him and his siblings, Provence and others adapt faster. He is still a relevant piece of the French restoration and reaches a very high degree of political influence but he can't use his "talents" (Because they were. Louis the XVIII for the win).

So Napoléon dies shortly after arriving in Elba? Because that's the only way there's no 100 Days happens. His suicide attempt at Fontainebleu COULD work, but that might actually just garner international sympathy for the little king of Rome. Even Wellington was against putting the Bourbons back after the 100 Days.

Napoleon lands back in France and is shot by a royalist peasant. There is political and military turmoil but XVII goes through.

Britain will not be happy about that.

Indeed, they won't, but the Netherlands will keep Flanders and thus with French support the British will "support" their dutch cousins.

Why? Louis XVI referred to Catherine the Great as "Madame Potemkin" and "Queen Poniatowski". It was a PERSONAL rather than POLITICAL dislike. Although, TBF, the only people at the Congress of Vienna who really LIKED Alexander I were the kids. And that was because he told a good ghost story. You know your rating is in the crapper when practically ALL of Europe is turned out, and the only people who like you are the kids.

It was Louis' and the others political dislike. Louis the XVII doesn't hate the Russians or Alexander, but neither does he particularly like them. However the France of Louis the XVII is more "brazen" and Austria starts lashing out at them using a longer lived King of Rome, and Russia is a very good way of telling the Austrians that using Nappy junior is not cool.

Easiest option is simply to have Louis Philippe die before he can marry. The lands then return to the crown and no bad blood necessary.

Indeed, that is the easiest option, but wasn't really my idea.

Ask the Spanish Borbons, getting a crown outside of France might remove you from France but does little to your right to inherit the French crown

I never did say that. I meant that as in the Orleans just stopped being cared about as they packed their bags and left the country, abdicating their french titles when they took the crown of Saint Stephen.

What benefit could a match with a tiny German principality bring France? You want a Beauharnais match go with Maria Amélia de Bragança (Pedro I's daughter) or Eugenia of Sweden. Portugal/Brasil or Sweden can at least bring somethig to the table. If Eugenia's objectionable because of her Bernadotte blood, Marie's cousin, Carola Vasa, might be a better choice.

I don't want a Beauharnais match, what this France wants is for the German balance of power to be maintained and for Prussia to keep it's claws away from them. You underestimate the relationship between the Singmaringens and the Prussians - they were just not "a tiny principality". My arguments about the Beauharnais and the Lechtenbergs was that their very Beauharnais ancestry didn't matter to the Bourbons at this point.

Maria Nikolaïevna's marriage was because Nikolai I wanted a French match for her. He offered her to Chambord as well. Then, when Chambord was deposes, he offered her for Maximilian II of Bavaria. She refused because she'd have to convert. Beauharnais was a sort of compromise candidate. And Beauharnais' Bavarian mother kicked up a MASSIVE fit about the fact that he had to agree to his kids being raised Orthodox, them having "Romanovsky" instead of Beauharnais as their surname, that they had to live in Russia, etc etc. Fact is Beauharnais was a "nobody", Marie's OTL husband was the son of a "jumped up knight of the toadstool" as one contemporary called Leo of Coburg. The dauphin/king of France is (as Susan Nagel puts it) "bannerbearer of the longest reigning dynasty in Europe".

Nikolai wanted a french marriage and he got the biggest one. The French made an offer that Nikolai couldn't refuse, pun intented, and at that point, it didn't matter if Maria wanted to keep her orthodoxy or not. Your personal wishes don't matter when you are marrying the bannerbearer of the longest reigning dinasty in Europe (probably the world if you count all the way back to the Robertians.)

How'd France get that back? After Napoléon kinda...y'know...sold it to the US? Can't think the US was very happy about France saying "bonjour, you're on my land".

Nappy never sends the Leclerk to Haiti and doesn't "lose it". He keeps Louisiana thus, and eventually, French royalists with British support end up taking New Orleans, and the rest is history.

She was OTL and didn't detach, why would she here?

Here she has a much bigger pop and problems with both America and Mexico overseas. France also has solid industrial resources from Wallonia and isn't interested in stirring up trouble for the Rhine. France isn't the brazen Empire of Nappy III.

Again, sure England, Russia and the Ottomans are THRILLED by this state of affairs.

The Ottomans, well, no, they're not, but who cares about them as the Ottoman Empire is eventually disestablished even faster than OTL. Britain has bigger problems and despite everything - just due to the fact Leopold is there they have more influence than the French. The French are just comparatively more active than OTL in Balkan affairs and earlier as well. Russia is happy because Leopold was a friend of the Russian monarchy and Kapodistrias and the Russian party hold longer at the helm of Greek governance.

I said new OR liberal, not new AND liberal, slight difference. My point is that France seems to be stepping on a LOT of toes (US with Louisiana, England and the Netherlands with Belgium, Austria/Savoy/their Bourbon cousins with whoever rules Lombardy, Spain with Mexico, Russia and the Ottomans with their designs in Egypt) and seems about as diplomatically isolated as the Second Empire IMO

Indeed, France stepped on a lot of toes but it did so in different reigns, times, with different allies and different interests at each time. Britain is vexed at Belgium but doesn't want to risk Napoleonic Bongaloo 2.0, Austria and Savoy, are indeed, angered, but the Lombards, ruled by a german house i haven't decided on (Hey maybe the Beauharnais would be a good idea .. lol) and the Sicilian Bourbons lead Italian liberations against Austria and the Italian Empire is much more of a confederacy than rule by Piedmont as it was OTL. Spain is in a steep decline and the French still hold their politics tight so yeah. Russia is indeed problematic with the Levant but the French aren't as agressively against the Russians reaching the mediterranean through greater and.. lesser armenia. Even though this doesn't happen tl wise because the Russians are still not able to reach Cilicia.

Bourbon France is not as diplomatically isolated as the Second Empire but it isn't bogged down by as many alliances either. It just goes with the flow, essentially like Britain did.

 

[TheBeanieBaron]

POD: Louis Joseph, eldest son of Louis the XVI, survives his illness and the French revolution.

Louis XVII, King of the French (B.1781;D.1849) / Amelia of Hannover, Princess of Great Britain and Ireland (B.1783;D.1842)
Their issue:

- Henri Joseph, Duke of Burgundy (B.1807;D.1863)
- François Joseph, Duke of Chartres (B.1807;D.1874)
- Caroline, Queen of Bavaria (B.1809;D.1860)
- Amelia, Queen of the Two Sicilies (B.1811;D.1873)
- Baudoin, Prince of Condé (B. 1814;D.1844)
- Phillipe, Prince of Joinville (B. 1816;D.1886)
- Marie Thérese, Princess of Greece (1818;D.1870)
- Antoinette, Duchess of Orleans (1819;D.1901)
- Charlotte, Princess of the Netherlands (B. 1823;D.1888)

Henri V, King of the French (B.1807;1874) / Olga Alexandrova, Grand Duchess of Russia (B.1806;D.1854)
Their issue:

- Phillipe Ferdinand, Duke of Luxembourg (B.1833;D.1903)
- Louis François, Count of Charleroi (B.1837;D.1907)
- Clothilde, Queen of Lombardy (B.1839;D.1911)

Phillipe VII, King of the French (B.1833; D.1906) Marie of Hohenzollern-Singmaringen, Princess of Prussia (B.1845;D.1912)
Their Issue:

- Charles Auguste, Duke of Bordeaux (B.1874;D.1940)
- Henri Antoine, Duke of Algiers (B.1876;D.1914)
- Charlotte, Queen of Romania (B. 1879;D.1961)
- Clementine, Queen of Poland (B. 1879;D.1952)
- Caroline, Empress of Mexico (B. 1883;D.1949)

Charles X, King of the French (B.1874;D.1940) Stephanie of Braganza, Princess of Portugal (B.1868;D.1899)
Their Issue:

- Robert Henri, Duke of Chartres and Anjou (B.1896;D. 1971)
- Ferdinand Phillipe, Duke of Saint Joseph and Prince of Cahokie (B.1899;D.1970)

Robert III, King of the French (B.1896;D.1971) Tatiana, Imperial Princess of Russia (B.1897;D:1974)
Their issue:

- Louis Nicolas, Prince of Liége and Duke of Burgundy (B.1923;D.1999)
- Louis Alexandre, Count of Blois (B.1925;D.1997)
- Aliénor, Empress of Germany (B.1929;D.2001)

Louis XVIII, King of the French (B.1923;D.1999) Maria Augusta, Imperial Princess of Mexico (B.1922;D.1997)
Their issue:

- Alexandre Ferdinand, Duke of Normandy and Prince of Oran (B.1950
- Charles Henri, Duke of Orleans and Nancy (B.1954
- Charlotte, Queen of the Netherlands (B.1956;D.2017)
- Marie Louise, Countess of Saint Pol (B. 1957
- Louis Antoine, Count of Provence (B.1957;D.1988)
- Sophie, Archduchess of Austria (B. 1960

Alexandre I, King of the French (B.1950 Anna of Battenberg, Princess of Bulgaria (B.1954
Their Issue:

- Alexandre Auguste, Duke of Gascony (B. 1979;D.1979)

I have many questions, but I will begin with a few:
How is the current Dauphin?
Were there any attempts for a Bonapatist restoration?
How long did Hanover stick with Great Britain?
Did Prussia still unite Germany?
When did Norway split from Denmark/Sweden?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

However the France of Louis the XVII is more "brazen" and Austria starts lashing out at them using a longer lived King of Rome, and Russia is a very good way of telling the Austrians that using Nappy junior is not cool.

How is France more brazen? Austria didn't use the duke of Reichstadt OTL, why would they use him here? Even when the July Revolution broke out and there was some talk of enthroning Reichstadt, Metternich doubled down on the security and refused to allow any Bonapartes access to Reichstadt. The onyl one who managed to slip the cordon was Countess Camerata (and that was only because she was travelling under her married name). And all she was able to do was corner Reichstadt on the front porch of his tutor's home and kiss his hand before the friendly Viennese police arrested her and escorted her to the border.

abdicating their french titles when they took the crown of Saint Stephen.

And the Habsburgs just waved Hungary buh-bye without a second thought?

You underestimate the relationship between the Singmaringens and the Prussians - they were just not "a tiny principality".

No, I don't. The Sigmaringens only "rose" (as it were) thanks to their cousin, Napoléon III's accession. Their marriages to Portugal (Pedro V/Maria Antonia), to Belgium (Philippe, comte de Flandres) and their endorsement for the Romanian throne all dated to within the Second Empire when their cousin is on the French throne. As to the Bourbons not minding the Beauharnais blood, Pedro V threw an absolute hissy fit at the idea of a marriage to Stephanie von Hohenzollern because of her Beauharnais blood. It took Prince Albert (Queen Victoria's husband) writing Pedro a very strongly worded letter, reminding Pedro that his own Kohary blood wasn't much "cleaner" before Pedro even agreed to meet with Stephanie.

Nikolai wanted a french marriage and he got the biggest one.

Biggest? He got a landless nobody who was willing to ask how high when the czar said jump.

The French made an offer that Nikolai couldn't refuse, pun intented, and at that point, it didn't matter if Maria wanted to keep her orthodoxy or not.

Yes, it did. The Catholic-Orthodoxy question had been coming up every time since Louis XV, most recently in the 1840s when Chambord and Elizabeth Mikhailovna wanted to get married (and before that, in 1815/1816 when Anna Pavlovna was proposed for Chambord's father or Louis XVIII). Nikolai I practically bent over backwards trying to be accomodating and still the French insisted on the Catholic conversion. Granted, it was driven by Madame Royal who got the pope to write Chambord a letter telling him it was a sin to marry "a heretic", but the fact remains that a "queen of France" (IIRC Bourbon house law states any woman marrying into the Bourbon family) must be a Catholic - since it's house law, whether the government is an absolute, constitutional or figurehead monarchy, it makes no difference, it's not for their decision.

Your personal wishes don't matter when you are marrying the bannerbearer of the longest reigning dinasty in Europe (probably the world if you count all the way back to the Robertians.)

Except in Russia. Nikolai I's daughters (all of them) had Catholic suitors galore - Max II of Bavaria, the duke of Teschen, Archduke Stephen of Austria, Palatine of Hungary; Carlo Alberto of Sardinia; Chambord; and others whose names escape me ATM - and in all of these cases, the matches failed because Grand Duchesses Maria and Olga refused them. Not Nikolai, his daughters. Maria didn't like Max II, Olga refused to marry Teschen or Stephen because she disliked the idea of being beholden to Metternich; AFAIK Sardinia and Chambord were both due to the matter of a conversion. Maria and Olga both refused to convert. Contrary to popular belief, damning yourself to Hell by willingly becoming a heretic (which is how both the Orthodox and the Catholics saw it) was not high on most people's list of things to do.

France isn't the brazen Empire of Nappy III.

I quote you:

However the France of Louis the XVII is more "brazen"

Britain has bigger problems and despite everything - just due to the fact Leopold is there they have more influence than the French.

How? Leopold wasn't particularly well-liked in England. In fact, England was pretty damn glad to get rid of him in 1830. The big reason he rejected the Greek throne OTL was because the British set the stipulation that he "give up his houses/pension". Leopold - by his own admission to Stockmar - seems to have entertained the idea of being an absentee landlord. That he could simply delegate people to run the show in Greece, and he and his morganatic wife, the Countess Montgomery, could sit in London or Paris. Maybe put in a sporadic appearance every now and then. Leopold was not planning on giving up his "life of ease" for one in Greece. The only reason Britain didn't force him to give up the houses/pension when he became king of Belgium was because nobody knew how stable the throne would be.

but who cares about them as the Ottoman Empire is eventually disestablished even faster than OTL.

Piedmont. Austria. Britain. Russia. All three of them objected to Napoléon III's plans of partitioning the Ottoman Empire in the second half of the 1860s OTL. Most of the time it was because it would put Austria and Russia at odds with one another over the Balkans, Britain because it would see Russia getting the Dardenelles, Piedmont was more just because the deal was that Austria would give them Veneto in exchange for this "territory" in the Balkans.

ruled by a german house i haven't decided on (Hey maybe the Beauharnais would be a good idea .. lol)

So, you've essentially neutered Austria? Since she's been thrown out of Hungary, thrown out of Italy, and thrown out of Germany, my question is what did the Habsburgs ever do to you? The Tuscan Habsburgs under Leopoldo II/Ferdinando IV would be a more likely leader of this Italian confederation than the Sicilian Bourbons.

It just goes with the flow, essentially like Britain did.

And look what that got Britain (she got a global empire, but most people in Europe didn't hesitate to jump on a "bash Britain" bandwagon when it rolled into town).

 

[RedKing]

In honour of Arthur Tudor's (maybe?) 535th birthday, a Tudorfest, and ASB tree:

King Arthur I of England "The Grandfather of Europe" (1486-1542) M. Queen Katherine I of Spain (1485-1555) [1], had issue

1. King Enrique V of Spain (1503-1559) M. Isabella of Portugal (1503-1560), had issue

1. King Ferdinand VII of Spain (1519-1568) M. Infanta Joanna of Portugal (1521-1570) [2]​

2. Infante Arturo, Duke of Segorbe (1521-1570) M. Guiomar, Duchess of Segorbe (1519-1580) [3]​

3. Infante Enrique, Duke of Cardona (1523-1580) M. Juana, Duchess of Cardona (1521-1581)​

4. Infanta Catalina of Spain (1525-1598) M. King Manuel II (1524-1565) [4]​

2. King Edward VI of England (1503-1562) M. a). Claude, Duchess of Brittany (1499-1525) [5] b). Princess Mary of Denmark (1512-1567) [6], had issue

1a). King Arthur II of England (1518-1576) M. Mary, Queen of Scots (1525-1578) [7]​

2a). Prince Henry, Duke of York (1520-1576) M. Elizabeth Tailboys, 4th Baroness Tailboys of Kyme (1520-1575) [8]​

3a). Princess Claude of England (1523-1580) M. King Charles IX of France (1521-1578)​

4b). King Christian III of Denmark (1527-1580) [9] M. Archduchess Katherine of Austria (1530-1576)​

5b). Princess Mary of England (1530-1598) M. King Eric XIV of Sweden (1533-1577) [10]​

3. Princess Elizabeth of England (1505-1555) M. King Louis XIII of France (1505-1521) [11], had issue

1. King Charles IX of France (1521-1578) M. Princess Claude of England (1523-1580)​

4. Princess Katherine of England (1507-1559) M. Holy Roman Emperor Philip II (1504-1567) [12]

1. Holy Roman Charles V (1525-1579) M. Renée, Duchess of Lorraine (1524-1576) [13]​

2. Archduke Maximilian of Austria, King of Hungary and Bohemia (1526-1580) M. Anne of Bohemia and Hungary (1525-1575) [14]​

3. Archduchess Margaret of Austria (1528-1560) M. King Sigismund II of Poland (1520-1572)​

4. Archduchess Katherine of Austria (1530-1576) M. King Christian III of Denmark (1527-1580)​

---

[1] A series of unfortunate events leaves Katherine as her parent's heir.
[2] Alt Granddaughter of Manuel I of Portugal and Giovanna of Naples. I guess her Father marries a sister of HRE Philip II
[3] The alt heiress of Alfonso de Aragón y Portugal, the same goes for the heiress beneath her.
[4] Brother of Joanna of Portugal
[5] This is the marriage that made me go, "Yeah, this is ASB".
[6] Sole heir of Christian II and Mary Tudor the Elder.
[7] Alt heir of James V of Renée of France
[8] She inherits the Barony earlier here.
[9] Wins the throne in a war, also quite ASB.
[10] The Swedes remain independent and the marriage occurs as part of a peace agreement.
[11] Alt son of Louis XII and Anne of Brittany.
[12] Philip the Handsome dies early here, and Margaret of Austria has two children with Philibert of Savoy, Philip and two daughters called Margaret and Mary.
[13] Alt heiress of Antoine of Lorraine.
[14] Alt heiress of Louis II of Hungary and Mary.

 

[Deleted member 147978]

In honour of Arthur Tudor's (maybe?) 535th birthday, a Tudorfest, and ASB tree:

King Arthur I of England "The Grandfather of Europe" (1486-1542) M. Queen Katherine I of Spain (1485-1555) [1], had issue

1. King Enrique V of Spain (1503-1559) M. Isabella of Portugal (1503-1560), had issue

1. King Ferdinand VII of Spain (1519-1568) M. Infanta Joanna of Portugal (1521-1570) [2]​

2. Infante Arturo, Duke of Segorbe (1521-1570) M. Guiomar, Duchess of Segorbe (1519-1580) [3]​

3. Infante Enrique, Duke of Cardona (1523-1580) M. Juana, Duchess of Cardona (1521-1581)​

4. Infanta Catalina of Spain (1525-1598) M. King Manuel II (1524-1565) [4]​

2. King Edward VI of England (1503-1562) M. a). Claude, Duchess of Brittany (1499-1525) [5] b). Princess Mary of Denmark (1512-1567) [6], had issue

1a). King Arthur II of England (1518-1576) M. Mary, Queen of Scots (1525-1578) [7]​

2a). Prince Henry, Duke of York (1520-1576) M. Elizabeth Tailboys, 4th Baroness Tailboys of Kyme (1520-1575) [8]​

3a). Princess Claude of England (1523-1580) M. King Charles IX of France (1521-1578)​

4b). King Christian III of Denmark (1527-1580) [9] M. Archduchess Katherine of Austria (1530-1576)​

5b). Princess Mary of England (1530-1598) M. King Eric XIV of Sweden (1533-1577) [10]​

3. Princess Elizabeth of England (1505-1555) M. King Louis XIII of France (1505-1521) [11], had issue

1. King Charles IX of France (1521-1578) M. Princess Claude of England (1523-1580)​

4. Princess Katherine of England (1507-1559) M. Holy Roman Emperor Philip II (1504-1567) [12]

1. Holy Roman Charles V (1525-1579) M. Renée, Duchess of Lorraine (1524-1576) [13]​

2. Archduke Maximilian of Austria, King of Hungary and Bohemia (1526-1580) M. Anne of Bohemia and Hungary (1525-1575) [14]​

3. Archduchess Margaret of Austria (1528-1560) M. King Sigismund II of Poland (1520-1572)​

4. Archduchess Katherine of Austria (1530-1576) M. King Christian III of Denmark (1527-1580)​

---

[1] A series of unfortunate events leaves Katherine as her parent's heir.
[2] Alt Granddaughter of Manuel I of Portugal and Giovanna of Naples. I guess her Father marries a sister of HRE Philip II
[3] The alt heiress of Alfonso de Aragón y Portugal, the same goes for the heiress beneath her.
[4] Brother of Joanna of Portugal
[5] This is the marriage that made me go, "Yeah, this is ASB".
[6] Sole heir of Christian II and Mary Tudor the Elder.
[7] Alt heir of James V of Renée of France
[8] She inherits the Barony earlier here.
[9] Wins the throne in a war, also quite ASB.
[10] The Swedes remain independent and the marriage occurs as part of a peace agreement.
[11] Alt son of Louis XII and Anne of Brittany.
[12] Philip the Handsome dies early here, and Margaret of Austria has two children with Philibert of Savoy, Philip and two daughters called Margaret and Mary.
[13] Alt heiress of Antoine of Lorraine.
[14] Alt heiress of Louis II of Hungary and Mary.

Now that's what I call "The Literal Blooming Tudor Rose."

 

[RedKing]

Now that's what I call "The Literal Blooming Tudor Rose."

Yeah, in just 150 years they go from minor Welsh Squires to Kings of major European Kingdoms. Henry VII must be having the time of his life here.

 

[Deleted member 147978]

About the Savoyard Progeny.

Does the House of Savoy inherit all of the Habsburg Lands including Burgundy?

I'm assuming Maximilian and Philip died without male issue is that correct?

 

[RedKing]

About the Savoyard Progeny.

Does the House of Savoy inherit all of the Habsburg Lands including Burgundy?

I'm assuming Maximilian and Philip died without male issue is that correct?

Yeah. In my head Juana died on her way to Burgundy, and Philip died not long after, and so Margaret married Philibert. Maximilian then dies without further issue later on.

 

[Deleted member 147978]

Yeah. In my head Juana died on her way to Burgundy, and Philip died not long after, and so Margaret married Philibert. Maximilian then dies without further issue later on.

Impressive Savoyard-Wank then hon.

They ITTL now own the Netherlands, Austria, Burgundy, and the Title of Holy Roman Emperor.

Just splendid isn't?