Deleted member 147978
I wonder if England and Portugal still uphold the treaty of Lisbon now that the Valois claim the Portuguese throne now.
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage
- Thread starter Jonathan
- Start date
Can I engage in some nitpickery?
I think that Charles would rather pick a handsome Prince Friedrich Augustus of Brunswick-Luneburg out of the cousin candidates for Prince Consort. He was also a second son, not a third one, whose pick looks like "random picking out of the list of princes" (and given how Fred was the most handsome of the three eldest sons of Sophia of Hanover, he may also be more natural of a pick).
Early death also makes more sense if needed for plot since IOTL Friedrich got killed pretty early in Turkish war (though an Archduke in all but name for second husband makes poor sense, but let's roll with it).
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POD: Anne of Brittany and her sister die before their father does.
King Charles VIII of France (1470-1498) m. Margaret of Austria (1480-1530)
King Charles VIII of France (1470-1498) m. Margaret of Austria (1480-1530)
1) King Philippe VII of France (1497-1547) m. Claudia of Chalon, Duchess of Brittany (1498-1521) (a) Isabella of Navarre (1512-1560) (b).
1a) Dauphin Charles (1516-1521)
2a) Princess Claude (1517-1536) m. King James of Scotland (1512-1542)
3a) King Francois (1519-1554) m. Isabella Jagiellon, Princess of Poland (1519-1559)
4a) Prince Philippe, Duke of Brittany (1520-1561) m. Catherine de' Medici (1519-1589)
5b) Princes Charles, Duke of Orleans (1531-1544)
6b) Princess Isabella (1532-1600) m. King Jean of Navarre (1531-1573)
7b) Prince Louis, Duke of Bourbon (1535-1598)
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Eleanor of Aquitaine m. Louis VII div. 1152(a) Henry II div. 1158(b)
1a. Maria, Duchess of Aquitaine b. 1145 m. Simon I of France
2a. Alix b. 1150 m. Henry II of Champagne
3b. William b. 1153 d. 1153
4b. Henry b. 1155. d. 1155
5b. Matilda b. 1156 m. Henry the Lion of Saxony
1a. Maria, Duchess of Aquitaine b. 1145 m. Simon I of France
2a. Alix b. 1150 m. Henry II of Champagne
3b. William b. 1153 d. 1153
4b. Henry b. 1155. d. 1155
5b. Matilda b. 1156 m. Henry the Lion of Saxony
For anyone who's interested - here is the current state of affairs of all three major royal families in Queen Twice Over as of the end of 1526
Hapsburgs:
Juana of Castile (b.1479) m.1496 Phillip IV of Burgundy
1) Eleanor of Austria (b.1498) m. 1518 Manuel I of Portugal (1469-1521) (a) m. 1523 Antoine, Duke of Lorraine (b)
- Charles of Portugal (1520-1521)
- Maria of Portugal (1521-1523)
2) Charles V (b.1500) m.1522 Marguerite de Angouleme (b.1492)
- Philip, Prince of Asturias (b.1524) bet. Anna of Lorraine (b.1522)
- unborn child, due August 1527
3) Isabella, Queen of Denmark (b.1501) m. 1515 Christian II of Denmark (b.1481)
- John, Crown Prince of Denmark (b.1518)
- Dorothea (b,1520)
- Christina (b.1521)
4) Ferdinand (b,1503) m.1521 Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (b.1503)
- Elizabeth (b.1526)
- unborn child, due July 1527
5) Mary, Queen of Hungary (b.1505) m.1521 Louis II of Hungary and Bohemia (1506-1526)
- Karoly III of Hungary and Bohemia (b.1522)
- Alojzia, Crown Princess of Hungary and Bohemia (b.1526)
6) Catherine, Duchess of Ferrara (b.1507) m.1523 Ercole II of Ferrara (b.1508)
- Giovanna (b.1525)
Tudor- Valois:
Henry VII (1457-1509) m. 1486 Elizabeth of York (1466-1503)
Hapsburgs:
Juana of Castile (b.1479) m.1496 Phillip IV of Burgundy
1) Eleanor of Austria (b.1498) m. 1518 Manuel I of Portugal (1469-1521) (a) m. 1523 Antoine, Duke of Lorraine (b)
- Charles of Portugal (1520-1521)
- Maria of Portugal (1521-1523)
2) Charles V (b.1500) m.1522 Marguerite de Angouleme (b.1492)
- Philip, Prince of Asturias (b.1524) bet. Anna of Lorraine (b.1522)
- unborn child, due August 1527
3) Isabella, Queen of Denmark (b.1501) m. 1515 Christian II of Denmark (b.1481)
- John, Crown Prince of Denmark (b.1518)
- Dorothea (b,1520)
- Christina (b.1521)
4) Ferdinand (b,1503) m.1521 Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (b.1503)
- Elizabeth (b.1526)
- unborn child, due July 1527
5) Mary, Queen of Hungary (b.1505) m.1521 Louis II of Hungary and Bohemia (1506-1526)
- Karoly III of Hungary and Bohemia (b.1522)
- Alojzia, Crown Princess of Hungary and Bohemia (b.1526)
6) Catherine, Duchess of Ferrara (b.1507) m.1523 Ercole II of Ferrara (b.1508)
- Giovanna (b.1525)
Tudor- Valois:
Henry VII (1457-1509) m. 1486 Elizabeth of York (1466-1503)
- Arthur, Prince of Wales (1486-1502) m.1501 Katherine of Aragon (b.1485)
No Issue
- Margaret, Queen of Scotland (b.1489) m 1503 James IV of Scotland (1473-1513)
- James V of Scotland (b.1512) bet. Louise of France (b.1520)
- Alexander, Duke of Ross (b.1514) bet. Anne of Cleves (b.1515)
- Henry VIII (b.1491) m 1509 Katherine of Aragon (b.1485) (a) m.1522 Lady Mary Talbot (b.1504) exm. Bessie Blount (b.1498) and Diane de Poitiers, Marchioness of Warwick (b.1500)
- Princess Mary (b.1516) bet. Henri, Duke of Milan and Orleans (b.1519)
- Henry Fitzroy, Earl of Somerset (b.1519) bet. Katherine Willoughby (b.1519)
- Lady Elizabeth (b.1523) bet. Ludovico, Prince of Piedmont (b. 1523)
- Lord Edmund Fitzroy (b.1524)
- George, Prince of Wales (b.1525)
- Lady Margaret Fitzroy (b.1526)
- Marie, Queen of France (b.1496) m. 1514 Louis XII of France (1462 -1515) m 1515 Francis I of France (b.1494)
With Louis:
No Issue
With Francis:
- Marguerite (b.1516) bet. Joao III of Portugal (b.1502)
- Francis, Dauphin of France (b.1517) bet. Renee, Duchess of Brittany (b.1510)
- Henri, Duke of Milan and Orleans (b.1519) bet. Princess Mary (b.1516)
- Louise (b.1520) bet. James V of Scotland (b.1512)
- Miscarriage (1521)
- Jean, Count of Angouleme (b.1522)
- Marie (b. and d. 1524)
- Charles (b.1526)
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Scenario: Jasper Tudor has a son with Catherine Woodville.
Jasper Tudor, Duke of Bedford, Earl of Pembroke (b.1431: d.1495) m. Catherine Woodville c.1458: d.1497) (a)
Jasper Tudor, Duke of Bedford, Earl of Pembroke (b.1431: d.1495) m. Catherine Woodville c.1458: d.1497) (a)
1a) Owen Tudor, Duke of Bedford, Earl of Pembroke (b.1488: d.1551) m. Margaret Neville (b.1495: d.1531) (a), Maud Percy (c.1500: d.1560) (b)
1a) Mary Tudor (b.1514: d.1519)
2a) Elizabeth Tudor (b.1517: d.1598) m. Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset (b.1519: d.1536) (a)
1a) Philippa Fitzroy (b.1536: d.1610) m. Henry Parker, Baron Morley (b.1533: d.1577) (a)
1a) Catherine Parker (b.1553)
2a) Stillborn Son (c.1555)
3a) Charles Parker, Duke of Richmond (b.1556)
4a) Frances Parker (b.1558)
5a) Henry Parker, Earl of Somerset (b.1559)
6a) Mary Parker (b.1561)
7a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1562)
8a) Margaret Parker (b.1564: d.1566)
9a) Francis Parker (b.1565: d.1566)
10a) Joan Parker (b.1567)
11a) Sir George Parker (b.1570)
3a) Edward Tudor, Earl of Pembroke (b.1519: d.1539) m. Mary Howard (b.1519: d.1557) (a)
- had no issue
4a) Catherine Tudor (b.1523: d.1565) m. Henry Clifford, Earl of Cumberland (b.1517: d.1570) (a)
1a) Helen Clifford (b.1550: d.1592) m. Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk (b.1536: d.1572) (a), Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford (b.1550: d.1604) (b)
- had no issue
2a) David Clifford (b.1553: d.1555)
3a) Bridget Clifford (b.1554: d.1610) m. William Cavendish, Earl of Devonshire (b.1552: d.1626) (a)
1a) Elizabeth Cavendish (b.1575)
2a) Bridget Cavendish (b.1577)
3a) Stillborn Son (c.1578)
4a) Katherine Cavendish (b.1580)
5a) Edward Cavendish, Earl of Devonshire (b.1581)
6a) Sir Gilbert Cavendish (b.1582)
7a) Stillborn Son (c.1584)
5a) Stillborn Son (c.1525)
6a) Margaret Tudor (b.1527: d.1527)
7a) Edmund I, King of England and Ireland (b.1528: d.1575) m. Elizabeth Tudor (b.1533: d.1603) (a)
1a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1553: d.1559)
2a) Margaret Tudor, Princess of England and Ireland (b.1555: d.1590) m. Francis, Duke of Anjou (b.1555: d.1584) (a)
1a) Stillborn Son (c.1580)
2a) Elisabeth Marie de Valois, Mademoiselle d'Anjou (b.1583)
3a) Owen Tudor, Duke of York (b.1556: d.1559)
4a) George I, King of England and Ireland (b.1558: d.1610) m. Catherine de Bourbon, Princess of Navarre (b.1559: d.1604) (a)
1a) Margaret Tudor, Princess of England and Ireland (b.1590)
2a) Henry IX, King of England and Ireland (b.1592)
3a) Jasper Tudor, Duke of Somerset (b.1595: d.1602)
5a) Edward Tudor, Duke of York (b.1562: d.1617) m. Sigrid of Sweden (b.1566: d.1633) (a)
1a) Anne Tudor (b.1597: d.1599)
2a) Sigismund Tudor, Duke of York (b.1598)
3a) Mary Tudor (b.1600: d.1600)
4a) Karin Tudor (b.1602)
5a) Henry Tudor, Duke of Bedford (b.1604)
6a) Frances Tudor, Princess of England and Ireland (b.1566: d.1599) m. Edmund Howard, Duke of Norfolk (b.1557: d.1595) (a)
1a) Mary Howard (b.1584)
2a) Elizabeth Howard (b.1587)
3a) Thomas Howard (b.1590: d.1590)
4a) Barbara Howard (b.1593)
8a) Cecily Tudor (b.1530: d.1530)
9b) Jasper Tudor, Earl of Lincoln (b.1535: d.1555)
- never married, had no issue
10b) Stillborn Son (c.1537)
Don't know how likely this is, but here goes:
A Different Empress Anna of Russia
Anna Petrovna, Empress of all the Russias [from 1730[1]] (b.1708) m: 1725 Karl Friedrich, Duke of Holstein (b.1700)
[1] The POD here is that Anna doesn’t go outside to see the fireworks to celebrate the birth of the future Peter III
@Archduke @Valena @VVD0D95 @alexmilman @isabella
A Different Empress Anna of Russia
Anna Petrovna, Empress of all the Russias [from 1730[1]] (b.1708) m: 1725 Karl Friedrich, Duke of Holstein (b.1700)
Karl Peter Ulrich (from 1730 the Grand Duke Pyotr Feodorovich) (b.1728)
Katharina (from 1730 the Grand Duchess Ekaterina Feodorovna) (b.1729)
Sophie Eleonora (from 1730 the Grand Duchess Maria Feodorovna) (b.1730)
Paul Feodorovich, Grand Duke of Russia (b.1733)
Anna Feodorovna (b.1731)
[1] The POD here is that Anna doesn’t go outside to see the fireworks to celebrate the birth of the future Peter III
@Archduke @Valena @VVD0D95 @alexmilman @isabella
The secondary PoD should also include death of her husband ealrly, he was disliked in Russia. And given that there was no firm succession law, if she is not a "dependable widow", her getting crowned is not plausible. The female rulers who were propped up IOTL were either widows (Catherine I, Anna Ioannovna) or single women (Elisabeth). Anna Leopoldovna was a regent for her son, the legal heir, and Caterine II overthrew her husband.
Maybe Paul Feodorovich is a posthumous son? With Holstein dying in 1732 (or he and Anna Feodorovna swap birth-dates?). Holstein dies of somehing reasonably stupid and benign?
Scenario: Robert Dudley, father of Kings.
Robert Dudley, Earl of Wiltshire (b.1532: d.1570) m. Mary I, Queen of Scotland (b.1542: d.1569) (a), Elizabeth I, Queen of England and Ireland (b.1533: d.1603) (b)
Robert Dudley, Earl of Wiltshire (b.1532: d.1570) m. Mary I, Queen of Scotland (b.1542: d.1569) (a), Elizabeth I, Queen of England and Ireland (b.1533: d.1603) (b)
1a) James VI, King of Scotland (b.1564: d.1610) m. Anna of Saxony (b.1567: d.1613) (a)
1a) James Stewart, Duke of Rothesay (b.1588: d.1598)
2a) John Stewart, Duke of Ross (b.1590: d.1593)
3a) Catherine Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1594: d.1599)
4a) Charles I, King of Scotland ( b.1596: d.1612)
5a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1597)
6a) Mary Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1599: d.1599)
2a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1566)
3a) Edward, Duke of Albany (b.1568: d.1602) m. Emilia of Nassau (b.1569: d.1591) (a), Catherine de Bourbon (b.1559: d.1609) (b)
1a) Mary II, Queen of Scotland (b.1590: d.1649) m. Edward VII, King of England and Ireland (b.1595: d.1630) (a)
- had issue
4a) Miscarriage (c.1569)
5b) Robert I, King of England and Ireland (b.1570: d.1627) m. Dorothea Sabine of Neuburg (b.1576: d.1597) (a), Sigrid of Sweden (b.1566: d.1633) (b)
1a) Edward VII, King of England and Ireland (b.1595: d.1630) m. Mary II, Queen of Scotland (b.1590: d.1649) (a)
1a) Margaret Dudley, Princess of England, Ireland and Scotland (b.1618)
2a) Robert II, King of England, Ireland and Scotland (b.1620)
3a) Elizabeth Dudley, Princess of England, Ireland and Scotland (b.1622)
4a) Mary Dudley, Princess of England, Ireland and Scotland (b.1623: d.1627)
5a) James Dudley, Duke of York and Albany (b.1626)
6a) Sophia Dudley, Princess of England, Ireland and Scotland (b.1627: d.1629)
7a) Barbara Dudley, Princess of England, Ireland and Scotland (b.1629)
2a) Henry Dudley, Duke of York (b.1597: d.1599)
3b) Elizabeth Dudley, Princess of England and Ireland (b.1600: d.1630) m. Władysław IV Vasa, King of Poland (b.1595: d.1648) (a)
1a) Maria Isabella Vasa, Princess of Poland (b.1622)
2a) Stillborn Son (c.1625)
4b) Robert Dudley, Duke of York (b.1603: d.1626) m. Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate (b.1597: d.1660) (a)
1a) Stillborn Son (c.1622)
2a) Eleanor Dudley (b.1623: d.1626)
3a) Frances Dudley (b.1626)
5b) Stillborn Son (c.1604)
6b) David Dudley, Duke of Richmond (b.1607: d.1670) m. Margaret Stuart (c.1620: d.1656) (a), Mary Carleton (b.1642: d.1673) (b) -annulled 1662-, Diana Digby (c.1640: d.1703) (c)
1a) Stillborn Son (c.1640)
2a) Francis Dudley, Duke of Richmond (b.1643)
3a) Stillborn Son (c.1644)
4a) George Dudley, Earl of Cambridge (b.1646)
5a) Henry Dudley (b.1647: d.1649)
6a) Stillborn Son (c.1648)
7a) David Dudley (b.1650: d.1650)
8b) Mary Dudley (b.1662)
9c) Edward Dudley, Earl of Sussex (b.1665)
10c) Stillborn Son (c.1666)
11c) Anne Dudley (b.1669)
Scenario: Joanna I of Naples has an heir with James IV of Majorca.
Joanna I, Queen of Naples (b.1325: d.1402) m. Andrew of Hungary, Duke of Calabria (b.1327: d.1345) (a), Louis of Taranto (b.1320: d.1362) (b), James IV, King of Majorca (b.1336: d.1375) (c), Otto, Duke of Brunswick-Grubenhagen (b.1320: d.1398) (d)
S
Joanna I, Queen of Naples (b.1325: d.1402) m. Andrew of Hungary, Duke of Calabria (b.1327: d.1345) (a), Louis of Taranto (b.1320: d.1362) (b), James IV, King of Majorca (b.1336: d.1375) (c), Otto, Duke of Brunswick-Grubenhagen (b.1320: d.1398) (d)
1a) Charles Martel, Duke of Calabria (b.1345: d.1348)
2b) Catherine, Princess of Naples (b.1348: d.1349)
3b) Francoise, Princess of Naples (b.1351: d.1352)
4c) Charlotte I, Queen of Naples (b.1365: d.1410) m. Frederick III, King of Sicily (b.1341: d.1377) (a), Azonne Visconti (b.1368: d.1381) (b), John I, Duke of Burgundy (b.1371: d.1419) (c)
1c) Francois I, King of Naples (b.1388: d.1413) m. Isabella, Princess of France (b.1389: d.1408) (a)
1a) Francoise I, Queen of Naples (b.1408)
2c) Marie, Princess of Naples (b.1390: d.1393)
3c) Isabella, Princess of Naples (b.1393: d.1420) m. John Jacob, Marquis of Montferrat (b.1395: d.1440) (a)
1a) John IV, Marquis of Montferrat (b.1412)
2a) Jacob I, Marquis of Montferrat (b.1415)
3a) Catherine Palaeologus of Montferrat (b.1417: d.1418)
4a) Isabeau Palaeologus of Montferrat (b.1420)
4c) Joanna, Princess of Naples (b.1395: d.1403)
5c) Charles, Prince of Naples (b.1397: d.1398)
S
Couple pointers:
Caterina of Naples, Giovanna's daughter, is still alive in June 1362 when there are records of an ongoing marriage negotiation for her with Juan I of Aragon IIRC.
Second, Giovanna's fourth husband (Otto) is also Jaime's stepdad. Which means that, under canon law, she'd be marrying her own father. With no kids it was JUST passable, with proof of consummation (namely Charlotte) no dice.
Charlotte's husbands look...weird. A Sicilian match I get and could probably work (although her being heiress to Mallorca will doubtless stick in the Aragonese craw), but Carlo of Durazzo will want at least a token consideration. And IF Charlotte's marrying ANY nephew of Charles V, it'll be Anjou, not Burgundy. Giovanna adopted Charles' brother, Anjou, during a trip to Avignon to meet with Jean II. If she wants a French son-in-law so bad, Anjou is the likely candidate.
And a match for Charlotte's son to Isabeau de France looks almost as odd. Besides being the eldest daughter of the king of France, what benefits does Isabeau bring to the table? France is tearig itself apart, so would be unlikely to help Naples if push came to shove. Naples likewise has no beef with France (if Giovanna stays pro-French). Jean sans Peur (if king-consort of Naples) isn't going to be able to play the same role in French politics as he did OTL (and even THERE Orléans still outfoxed him on the matter of Isabeau's remarriage), so what would lead up to the marriage here?
VVD0D95
Banned
After convos with @Kellan Sullivan and @The_Most_Happy
James II of England and Ireland and VII of Scotland (b.1633: d.1701) m a) Anne Hyde (b.1638: d.1671) b)Mary of Modena (b.1658: d.1718)
Issue:
1a) Mary of York (b.1662) m William III, Prince of Orange (b.1650) in 1677
1b) Anne of York (b.1664) m George, Prince of Denmark (b.1653) in 1684 had issue.
2c) James, Prince of Wales (b.1688)
2d) Henry, Duke of York and Albany (b.1689)
2e) Princess Louise Marie Theresa Stuart (b.1692)
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Anne, Duchess of Cumberland (b.1664) m George, Duke of Cumberland (b.1653) in 1684
Issue:
Mary of Cumberland (b.1685)
Anne Sophie of Cumberland (b.1686)
James, Earl of Kendal (b.1689)
Elizabeth of Cumberland (b.1690)
George of Cumberland (b.1692)
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James III, King of the United Kingdom of the British Isles (b.1688: d.1766) m Anne Eleonore of Saxony (b.1692: d.1765) in 1707
Issue:
James, Prince of Wales (b.1708)
stillborn son (b.1709: d.1709)
Mary, Princess Royal (b.1710)
Henry, Duke of Clarence and Kintyre (b.1712)
stillborn daughter (b.1714: d.1714)
Alexander, Duke of Gloucester and Strathearn (b.1717)
Elizabeth Eleonore of the United Kingdom (b.1720)
Anne of the United Kingdom (b.1723)
Prince Edward (b.1726
Note, Anne Eleonore is the daughter of Johan Georg IV, Elector of Saxony and his wife, Eleonore
James II of England and Ireland and VII of Scotland (b.1633: d.1701) m a) Anne Hyde (b.1638: d.1671) b)Mary of Modena (b.1658: d.1718)
Issue:
1a) Mary of York (b.1662) m William III, Prince of Orange (b.1650) in 1677
1b) Anne of York (b.1664) m George, Prince of Denmark (b.1653) in 1684 had issue.
2c) James, Prince of Wales (b.1688)
2d) Henry, Duke of York and Albany (b.1689)
2e) Princess Louise Marie Theresa Stuart (b.1692)
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Anne, Duchess of Cumberland (b.1664) m George, Duke of Cumberland (b.1653) in 1684
Issue:
Mary of Cumberland (b.1685)
Anne Sophie of Cumberland (b.1686)
James, Earl of Kendal (b.1689)
Elizabeth of Cumberland (b.1690)
George of Cumberland (b.1692)
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James III, King of the United Kingdom of the British Isles (b.1688: d.1766) m Anne Eleonore of Saxony (b.1692: d.1765) in 1707
Issue:
James, Prince of Wales (b.1708)
stillborn son (b.1709: d.1709)
Mary, Princess Royal (b.1710)
Henry, Duke of Clarence and Kintyre (b.1712)
stillborn daughter (b.1714: d.1714)
Alexander, Duke of Gloucester and Strathearn (b.1717)
Elizabeth Eleonore of the United Kingdom (b.1720)
Anne of the United Kingdom (b.1723)
Prince Edward (b.1726
Note, Anne Eleonore is the daughter of Johan Georg IV, Elector of Saxony and his wife, Eleonore