Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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Way to late for the BEF, wouldn't have mattered anyway as the French will still fall.
True on both counts, though how much gets throufh to the Italian's that matter and how much the Italian's can do about the 7th is probably nil.
Probably yes to both with a bit of jiggling, wont happen though. The pom pom made sense for the Matilda 1 as it is better than an MG. The Valiant will be going to the 6pdr before the year is out (at least in small numbers) and a CS variant will be on the way soon as well. They will win out over the pom pom.
Possibly, but the pom-pom/Bofors has something neither a dedicated AT gun not howitzer has, the ability to engage multiple targets sequentially without needing to reload.
True and as a variant for the Far East in particular that could be useful. Thing is AT performance will still take priority in the minds of many in Europe so it will get pushed down the list of priorities. The Matilda 2 is possibly a more likely candidate for a pom pom. It will likely see action in the Far East before the Valiant and is good enough, even with a 2pdr to serve until the end of the war. It did OTL after all and a pom pom only makes it more effective in the jungle.
Fair enough. Then, of course, you have the Molins Gun, which, being based on a 6-pounder, might be viable for the Valiant.
Did anyone actually use a pom-Pom or similar during WW2? As far as I know there were a few vehicles with autocannon in the 20mm range (notably the pz2) and obviously instances of AA weapons used in the ground role, but it seems like the auto-spud-chucker fell out of favour between the boer war and the creation of the modern AGL.
At this point in time, the Pz III and IV are no better than the British cruiser tanks. Such a shame they didn't do exercises earlier, now it's too late to think about changing the way they use the Matilda I.
As for the Italians, I would suggest arming the troops with Can Opener, Indian pattern
Unless you're moving them up to Sedan, I don't think there's a lot that you could really change, as their speed, though significantly faster compared to what it was, is still pretty glacial.
I'm not certain it could go in, there might not be enough room in the turret. I just though it might be an interesting idea to contemplate.
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Forget the pom pom. It is a useful bodge for the moment but has no future. For the firepower the thing is huge and heavy. Plus the RN wants all it can get and not without reason. Ditto for Bofors which are needed for air defence. We have perfectly adequate dual firepower in the 6 Pounder/QF75mm plus getting the Vickers HV75mm team and Cromwell(insert thread equivalent) turret folk to party together.
It is a bit like Special Forces. They have their place and are very useful in that but the main peer thrust must be a unified normal army. Bodges like the pom pom would be useful but the main thrust has to be somethings that can be a standard design made in a gurt big factory and churned out in numbers. In our gun planning we do not have to go outside OTL, just tweak the decisions. Can our man nudge more tank transporters out of the system?
It would be nice if the detail designers were a) made to sit in a metal mock up of their proposals hatch closed and then afire started smoke grenades let off inside and see how easy it is to get out. Maybe hamper a few with splints to simulate injuries. b) Make the ancillary installers do some heavy maintenance in the night, in the rain in February. Maybe then there will be decent hatches and ergonomic maintenance.
However, our man is a mere human and cannot do everything.
It is a bit like Special Forces. They have their place and are very useful in that but the main peer thrust must be a unified normal army. Bodges like the pom pom would be useful but the main thrust has to be somethings that can be a standard design made in a gurt big factory and churned out in numbers. In our gun planning we do not have to go outside OTL, just tweak the decisions. Can our man nudge more tank transporters out of the system?
It would be nice if the detail designers were a) made to sit in a metal mock up of their proposals hatch closed and then a
However, our man is a mere human and cannot do everything.
The pom-pom is useful for being an automatic, belt-feed weapon, rather than a one-shot-and-reload weapon, so there might well be situations where it's useful, like against the Italians (swarms of L3 tankettes or similar would be a target-rich environment).
It would be nice, but I doubt it at this stage of the war.
This is a very good point.
AFAIK, no. There were some vehicles mounting 37mm or 40mm automatics, but they were specifically for SPAA. The problem was that the autoloaders were heavy and bulky (look at the turret height on the Crusader AA) and for the same weight and space you could get either a proper AT gun with much greater range and penetration or a proper field gun with a much bigger HE shell.
The tactic of "much dakka at short range" is one that doesn't seem to have worked out well in any context above infantry small arms - range and shell weight always seemed to win out over sheer volume of fire.
I should have specified “as ground based weapons”. I just find it interesting we have lots of enthusiasm for the Pom-
Pom on the battlefield when as far as I know no-one even attempted anything similar between the Boer and Vietnam wars.
marathag
Banned
McLean 37mm, gas operated
The American inventor Samuel Neal McLean was one of the pioneers of the modern armaments, since he was the one patenting in 1902 the very first automatic weapon system taking its energy from a piston using the shooting propulsive gasses. Although this system never reall worked on its firm Mc Lean Company's machineguns projects before it associated with the colonel Issac Lewis and designe the famous Lewis machinegun that equipped the British Army during WWI, it was a bit more easily used on a small 37 mm gun. This automatic gun that was supposed to allow incredible firing rates of about 100 rounds per minute ws not able to convince the US Army and the US Navy during numerous tests and demonstrations between 1903 and 1910 on the models MkI, then MkII, showing too much reliability issues. But in 1916 the Poole Engineering Machine Co, from Baltimore, manufactured a new variant named the '37 mm McLean MkIII' that was keeping the long 54 calibres barrel and the pneumatic automatic system of the MkII version never accepted by USA, but mounted on a tubular carriage similar to the one made by Bethlehem Steel for its landing gun. 258 such guns were built, and 218 of them delivered to Russia before that nation withdrawed from war in 1917. The remaining guns were again proposed to the US Navy without success. Russia kept its guns in the Army inventories until 1935 when most of them were given to Spain. Czechoslovakia during the fights against the Soviets in 1919, and Filand during the Winter War in 1939 captured some of these guns and used them too. | Technical data :
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The AAC Company took this design, and repackaged them for the Bell FM-1 and Marmon-Herrington light tanks.
5 round clip.
AAC, American Armaments Company, was run by real crooks, though. Very shady, even by international arms seller standards
I'm surprised that the 37mm C.O.W gun was never tried in Vickers light tanks.
en.wikipedia.org
COW 37 mm gun - Wikipedia
There was some use of the COW 37mm autocannon, by the RAF, on armoured trucks as an airfield defense weapon post-Dunkirk.
The Marmon-Herrington CTMS and MTLS, produced in the US for the Free Dutch forces was armed with 37mm autocannons (single in the CTMS, twin in the MTLS).
Edit: Possibly a bit on the marginal side, there's the Swiss Panzer-39...2 4mm autocannon, so bigger than typical for WW2 but short of the 1-2 pound shot of various pom poms...
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AIUI the COW was used by Vickers as a basis for the Pom-Pom. Vickers bought out Coventry Ordinance Works in the early 20's I think.
The Pom Pom dates back to the 1890's and is just an oversized Maxim Gun. The C.O.W is a late WWI gun and was later to be the basis for the Vickers S 40mm aircraft gun.
That was it! I knew it was a 40 mm, but got mixed up on which one. Apologies for my poor memory.
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