Hadrian's Consolidation - reboot

it is limited for business and private correspondance (although it can be used, and hacked too as shown by OTL history : https://www.1843magazine.com/technology/rewind/the-crooked-timber-of-humanity )
This is not really true. If you know there is a high/low demand for X this year, or high/low supply of Y this year a month a head of time you can really change your buisness strategy.

I think the Emperor would have the clack network built to Rome as soon as possible, and to the prefectural capitals second. He's spent most of his time in Rome since the German war, so he's going to want access to the network.
 
Imperial residence, Apulum, Dacia, March 179

Hecatee

Donor
Imperial residence, Apulum, Dacia, March 179


Marcus Aurelius was having one of his last evening with his friends before going back on the roads for the second year of his journey around the empire. Around him on the couches in the room of his newly built palace were his closest friends, as much as an emperor could have any, and advisors.

His heir was leaning on the couch to his right, while his medicus Gallienus had the honor of the one to his left. The six other guests made for the two wings of the assembly, so that all could easily reach the food in the table in the middle.

The meal was simple, as always when the emperor had no official requirement, but exquisite nonetheless thanks to the talent of his cook. They were currently eating a hypotrimma salad made with local summer honey and plants such as mint and lovage while having an heated argument on philosophy.

“But what is the goal of philosophy ? Why do we study it and train in it for so long ? Is it only to make us better ? But is that not very arrogant ? Because you know the argument that philosophy is what gets us closer to divinity, but is not being closer to the divine an arrogant goal ?”

“True, one could see your point. But the goal of philosophy must be seen as the tool that helps you make good, instead of bad, and thus be in our behaviour closer to the divinity, but without that being a goal in itself, only being good being the goal.”

“But that is only true if you keep looking only at ethics. Yet philosophy has from the earliest day been divided between natural and ethical philosophy. Remember Heraclitus and the other presocratic discussing the nature of the world and which elements is at its basis. And who can say that the work being done at the Academia Practica or at the Library, even if more manual than Aristotle would have considered proper, is not philosophy ?”

“Look even at the book the glassmaker offered you at Colonia Agrippina. His approach, systematic and organize his perception of the world, bringing new ways to see the world by the effect its component can have on each other. His work brings new clarity on the world, it is thus philosophical but not good or bad…”

“I’m not so sure for his advance of our knowledge is good in itself, given that it makes us understand the world, and thus divinity, better”

“You tire me with your arguments, and make me thirsty. It’s lucky that your stewards were able to bring Falernum to this gods forsaken place. But if I’m to give an opinion I’d say that the glassmaker’s work is as philosophical as Gallienus healing, and that is very philosophical because it is doing good and enlightining our understanding of the world. “

“I’ll remember you saying I’m doing good next time I’ll have to try healing you Gaius, but in the meantime to your health !”

“I do wonder, now that we talk of the glassmaker’s work and of the old pre socratic philosophers, whether Epicurus was not right in his depiction of the world and the stoics in error.”

“The unlimited number of atoms of the epicurians ? That would need more research but… can we see it ? Are we not like the men in Plato’s cave, only seeing a shadow of the world and unable to see it in all its glorious truth unless helped by a god…”

“You forget that in Plato’s story it was no god that brought the man to the light but another man who had escaped the cave and then come back to help those still prisoners…”

“Thus doing good…”

“... so that one can say that natural philosophy is an ethical occupation that the men of good must practice !”

Marcus Aurelius had not said a word during this, simply eating his salad with a smile on his face and a cup of wine close at hand. This was the kind of moments he liked the best, when he could escape the tediousness of ruling the empire. Hopefully his plan…

His train of thought was interupted by the intrusion of four slaves carrying the pulum frontonianum. The smell of the chicken in its sauce made all thoughts of philosophy escape the diners, at least for the time being.
 

Hecatee

Donor
I literally just learned in class about Plato’s story with the cave!
So you can see I'm using OTL material to pad out this story ;) and of course also to make an answer to some of the comments on how to sustain the quest for natural sciences and theoretical research in this ATL ;)
 
Neoplatonism going to be completely different from OTL, isn't it? Since Ammonius Saccas was really into Hinduism, and now we get even more eastern influences.
 

Hecatee

Donor
Neoplatonism going to be completely different from OTL, isn't it? Since Ammonius Saccas was really into Hinduism, and now we get even more eastern influences.
Oh yes, absolutely ! In fact it won't exist but something will take its place, are you ready for the great divide between the schools of epistemenomics and praktika ;)
 
Definitely would like to see Hindu influence on Roman theology.

Hecatee, I'm reading Mary Beard's SPQR, and this stood out to me (it having been a good 15 years since I read Livy). It would seem that Hadrian's constitution harkens back considerably to what the Romans anachronisticly imagined the period of Kings to be like. I wonder what the current Senators and the historians think of that?

in arranging the kingly succession (which was not hereditary) they followed complex legal procedures that involved the appointment of an interrex (a ‘between king’), a popular vote for the new monarch and senatorial ratification.
 
Last edited:

Hecatee

Donor
Definitely would like to see Hindu influence on Roman theology.

Hecatee, I'm reading Mary Beard's SPQR, and this stood out to me (it having been a good 15 years since I read Livy). It would seem that Hadrian's constitution harkens back to what the Romans anachronisticly imagined the period of Kings to be like. I wonder what the current Senators and the historians think of that?
Only the most devoted historian would remember that, and beside few would dare speak of it in public, or even in private. But on the other hand for the senators they do see themselves as being mostly in power in the succession period, so they don't really see reason to complain
 
Only the most devoted historian would remember that, and beside few would dare speak of it in public, or even in private. But on the other hand for the senators they do see themselves as being mostly in power in the succession period, so they don't really see reason to complain
This is from Livy's history which was well read among the educated elite was it not? The senators and equestrians would be aware of this story.
 

Hecatee

Donor
This is from Livy's history which was well read among the educated elite was it not? The senators and equestrians would be aware of this story.
In the first century it would be, already somewhat less in the 2nd century as its style was already somewhat dated and more modern historical texts had been written (Tacitus, etc.) Also with Livy being so huge not everything has been read (one of the reasons we lost some parts of the histories)
 
Really wondering how Plato's cave can be interpreted as supportive of natural philosophy TTL when OTL everyone understood in the analogy Plato as being against empiricism, sensory knowledge...
 
Really wondering how Plato's cave can be interpreted as supportive of natural philosophy TTL when OTL everyone understood in the analogy Plato as being against empiricism, sensory knowledge...
As far as I understood it, the whole allegory was used to represent that the material world was deceitful and we should seek out the pure ideas of the world of ideas (Not sure how it's called in english) and that since the ideas are good, whoever reaches that far would go back to the cave and spread wisdom. It would need a reinterpretation to say that the shadows inside the cave are merely what we see without experiments, and leaving the cave requires the understanding of the physical world via trial and error, until we leave the cave and I dunno, reach justice, wisdom, happiness or whatever.
That's why I understood it as a new kind of neoplatonism, with less Plato and more Aristotle.
 
In the first century it would be, already somewhat less in the 2nd century as its style was already somewhat dated and more modern historical texts had been written (Tacitus, etc.) Also with Livy being so huge not everything has been read (one of the reasons we lost some parts of the histories)
I think you're underestimating the popularity of his writing. Those books on the founding of Rome and regal period survived to this day because they were so popular and copied so often.

Moreover, Livy did not emerge from a vacuum. The stories he recorded of the royal period were common in Roman written and oral histories. People would know these stories.
 
As far as I understood it, the whole allegory was used to represent that the material world was deceitful and we should seek out the pure ideas of the world of ideas (Not sure how it's called in english) and that since the ideas are good, whoever reaches that far would go back to the cave and spread wisdom. It would need a reinterpretation to say that the shadows inside the cave are merely what we see without experiments, and leaving the cave requires the understanding of the physical world via trial and error, until we leave the cave and I dunno, reach justice, wisdom, happiness or whatever.
That's why I understood it as a new kind of neoplatonism, with less Plato and more Aristotle.

Well I've read the republic and I can assure you nobody could have made use of this analogy while ignoring everything else Plato said and still called it Neoplatonism. Plotinus TTL was very careful to cite all parts of the dialogues necessary in support of his conclusion of the systematization of Plato. Copying and pasting certain sections while ignoring the rest of what Plato wrote should convince nobody that this is what Plato actually intended.
 
Well I've read the republic and I can assure you nobody could have made use of this analogy while ignoring everything else Plato said and still called it Neoplatonism. Plotinus TTL was very careful to cite all parts of the dialogues necessary in support of his conclusion of the systematization of Plato. Copying and pasting certain sections while ignoring the rest of what Plato wrote should convince nobody that this is what Plato actually intended.

True, but how about the method of leaving the cave? I don't believe Plato straight up says how the first person leaves it, even though Socrates says something like "being forced out of the cave", and it could always be worked on without majorly distorting Plato's philosophy (Although I severely dislike it).
 

Hecatee

Donor
True, but how about the method of leaving the cave? I don't believe Plato straight up says how the first person leaves it, even though Socrates says something like "being forced out of the cave", and it could always be worked on without majorly distorting Plato's philosophy (Although I severely dislike it).
You could go for an argument that says that perception is dependent on knowledge, and that while everything exists on two levels (ideal and perception) knowledge also exists on multiple levels : the practical, which is the more engineering side of things, which provides immediately perceptible results, and the theorethical or the "rules of the world" level that explain why things are as they are and that allow for better practika because you know the causes and not only the effects, Plato's cave being reinterpreted as leaving the cave once you understand the rules and laws that make the world and allow you to see it anew in its truth rather than in the shadows/effects/consequences of things, understanding the idea of things instead of the perception of things. It is in a way the rules that organize the ideas that become the new philosophical subject for natural philosophy and that needs to go through Aristotle's categories and systematic description of the world but brought to the ideal world instead of only the physical, perceptible one.

Also note that thanks to early lenses and microscope in this TL they know that the realm of perception can be extended (here toward the microscopic) and that things are more complex than they thought, the human body itself being host to smaller entities (and not only organs but also things that move in the blood)
 
I've just finished reading this TL having started it only a few days ago. Great writing. Not my usual period of interest but definitely looking forward to hopefully more!

We now have the Romans digging canals, I wonder if they will be able to stumble across tramways. Certainly nothing technology wise in the way.

God help the enemies of Rome if Rome discovers gunpowder.
 

Vuu

Banned
Just a question for the Eastern frontier. Have the Roman expanded into the caucasus mountains? Or is still a bunch of Client Kings?
They still don't seem to have discovered the art of heavy/deep ploughing that's required to do that it seems - that city on Hadrian's wall still uses garden agriculture, the Romans would probably expand to Ireland and the rest of Scotland now that agriculture is viable there to secure that bit before going eastward
 
Top