What did the Chinese get from the Roman exchange? Will we get an update on that?
Hadrian's Consolidation - reboot
- Thread starter Hecatee
- Start date
Hecatee
Donor
Yes, when the Chinese ambassy comes back to China (in about 2 years and a half story time). But mainly its the strange picture of an empire clearly not barbarian but with a very different look on things, especially the role of the individual or the individual's relationship to the state, philosophical elements (Plato, Aristotle, stoicism, epicurism and cynism mainly), some elements of naval technology by observing the roman ships, geographical elements that make the middle empire not so middle anymore (in itself a major shift in tought), some technological knowledge and some science, but little practical science/knowhow due to few craftsmen being in the expedition. But most importantly they got a kick in the back of the dynasty who stirred itself out of its self destroying complacency, enough to bring at least half a century to a full century of renewed prosperity without civil war...
Near Mediolanum, Gallia Cisaplina, June 179
Hecatee
Donor
Near Mediolanum, Gallia Cisaplina, June 179
The two groups of men faced each other, hostility visible in their posture. Between them, three men doing their work. The border dispute between the lands of the two men was a long one, but the local magistrate had decided to finally settle things once and for all and had managed to get a team of agrimensores to come and fix the exact limit of the two lands, setting new markers and confirming the position of the old ones.
The two owners were there, each one surrounded by a dozen of his strongest slaves and workmen armed with wooden clubs. A fourth group of men, made of the local magistrate, his secretary, two slaves and a contubernalia of local guards, looked on the proceeding and prevented, by its mere presence, open violence between the two other groups or against the professionals setting the limit of the land.
The conflict, caused by an inheritance, had already lasted for three generations, and piles of documents had been presented by both parties to support their case, but the last one found by the equestrian owner Titus Pontius Aquilius had been decisive : the old letter between his ancestor and a neighbor had shown without doubt that the old oak was the delimiting feature of the land and not the large boulder as claimed by his neighbor and cousin twice removed Aelius Pontius Alaudus. This meant that the spring was indeed inside Aquilius’ lands…
The agrimensores were now checking on the terrain that the description matched the text and that the three was indeed the correct one. Their gnomon indeed pointed toward it, but to be sure they were walking the distance to the three with their odometer, under the constant supervision of the various parties.
The presence of the agrimensores was due to the status of Aquilius, one of the imperial machinatorum : this had convinced the authorities to finally review the case and close all debates. Aquilius also knew that Alaudus would not go any further in his appeal : the family had lost enough money as it was and they could not hope to win against someone who was known to have spoken personally with the emperor on a number of time, as Aquilius proudly told his guests at most dinner parties.
Looking at the machine Aquilius’ villicus, manager of the farm in his master’s absence, said to no one in particular : “Nice machine. I’m sure someone could devise one similar to plant seed very precisely if one was so inclined.”
His patron looked at him, surprised : “and why would you want that ?” “Oh I don’t know, it would make the planting of an orchard simpler, or even a grain field… Instead of throwing seeds to the wind and hope in falls in the churned ground and where it’d stay easy to eat for birds we’d have it directly set in the soil at a given distance, making sure each plant has enough space to grow and improving the amount of grain not eaten by the birds… I can even see a smaller version of the machine being used to do easier work when planting vegetables…”
His master looked at the odometer, pensive. “Yes, actually I could see it work… Set a mechanism that drops a hammer at a given distance, compacting the ground to make a hole, then dropping a seed in the hole and with a piece behind that would collapse some of the ground on top of the seed…”
Making a sign to his personnal slave, Aquila asked for his notes’ volumen and some ink, immediately starting to sketch his idea before he forgot it. On the other side of the field Alaudus grimaced, wondering what mischief the thief of his land was now scheming about...
The two groups of men faced each other, hostility visible in their posture. Between them, three men doing their work. The border dispute between the lands of the two men was a long one, but the local magistrate had decided to finally settle things once and for all and had managed to get a team of agrimensores to come and fix the exact limit of the two lands, setting new markers and confirming the position of the old ones.
The two owners were there, each one surrounded by a dozen of his strongest slaves and workmen armed with wooden clubs. A fourth group of men, made of the local magistrate, his secretary, two slaves and a contubernalia of local guards, looked on the proceeding and prevented, by its mere presence, open violence between the two other groups or against the professionals setting the limit of the land.
The conflict, caused by an inheritance, had already lasted for three generations, and piles of documents had been presented by both parties to support their case, but the last one found by the equestrian owner Titus Pontius Aquilius had been decisive : the old letter between his ancestor and a neighbor had shown without doubt that the old oak was the delimiting feature of the land and not the large boulder as claimed by his neighbor and cousin twice removed Aelius Pontius Alaudus. This meant that the spring was indeed inside Aquilius’ lands…
The agrimensores were now checking on the terrain that the description matched the text and that the three was indeed the correct one. Their gnomon indeed pointed toward it, but to be sure they were walking the distance to the three with their odometer, under the constant supervision of the various parties.
The presence of the agrimensores was due to the status of Aquilius, one of the imperial machinatorum : this had convinced the authorities to finally review the case and close all debates. Aquilius also knew that Alaudus would not go any further in his appeal : the family had lost enough money as it was and they could not hope to win against someone who was known to have spoken personally with the emperor on a number of time, as Aquilius proudly told his guests at most dinner parties.
Looking at the machine Aquilius’ villicus, manager of the farm in his master’s absence, said to no one in particular : “Nice machine. I’m sure someone could devise one similar to plant seed very precisely if one was so inclined.”
His patron looked at him, surprised : “and why would you want that ?” “Oh I don’t know, it would make the planting of an orchard simpler, or even a grain field… Instead of throwing seeds to the wind and hope in falls in the churned ground and where it’d stay easy to eat for birds we’d have it directly set in the soil at a given distance, making sure each plant has enough space to grow and improving the amount of grain not eaten by the birds… I can even see a smaller version of the machine being used to do easier work when planting vegetables…”
His master looked at the odometer, pensive. “Yes, actually I could see it work… Set a mechanism that drops a hammer at a given distance, compacting the ground to make a hole, then dropping a seed in the hole and with a piece behind that would collapse some of the ground on top of the seed…”
Making a sign to his personnal slave, Aquila asked for his notes’ volumen and some ink, immediately starting to sketch his idea before he forgot it. On the other side of the field Alaudus grimaced, wondering what mischief the thief of his land was now scheming about...
Hecatee
Donor
I just see I've been suggested for the Turtledove 2019, thanks to @John Spangler and @Atamolos ! The support all of you give this TL with your comments and discussions is a great motivation to keep working on this story !
As always amazing new chapters @Hecatee !!! And now, ladies and gentlemen, let's welcome the agrarian revolution!!! Coming soon on your Roman field!!! (^o^)
If this keeps up, how long do you think it will take before the Industrial Revolution starts?
Uhm...good question. If everything continues like this.Uhm...maybe a century? It's depend on a different range of factors.
What an expensive, impractical, cumbersome machine. Might be of interest to wealthy landowners who have time and capital to indulge their interest with experiments, but it won't make much of an impact. Historically in Europe seed drill did not become viable until the invention of (replaceable) machine tools.
Apparently the Chinese invented an alternative multi-tube iron seed drill and it was viable, so the Romans should have picked up something there. I don't know much about it but it doesn't look anything like that, it's a much simpler design. Something like this might be viable enough to spread widely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_drill#/media/File:ChineseSeedDrill1637.jpg
Apparently the Chinese invented an alternative multi-tube iron seed drill and it was viable, so the Romans should have picked up something there. I don't know much about it but it doesn't look anything like that, it's a much simpler design. Something like this might be viable enough to spread widely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_drill#/media/File:ChineseSeedDrill1637.jpg
Hecatee
Donor
I did not want a practical and economical machines
I mean, overengineering is a common trope in history, as are technological dead ends and even too early technologies. Here we're having a geek being given an idea to make money and while actually I don't plan on comming back to this little part of the Empire I would expect the end project to be a kind of plough with seed dispenser but still using odometer technology as a basic frame...Nice! I don't know much about this reward, is it given in-forum, and even if not can we vote for you?
Hecatee
Donor
@Neko Tamo
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...nominations-and-seconds.460876/#post-18344030
In fact I fear that being the winner of the award in 2018 I'm not eligible for this year... We'll see what the judges say
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...nominations-and-seconds.460876/#post-18344030
In fact I fear that being the winner of the award in 2018 I'm not eligible for this year... We'll see what the judges say
Yes, seems that way:
- Previous Turtledove Award winning threads are NOT eligible for nominations in any category.
Babylon, Mesopotamia, August 179
Hecatee
Donor
Babylon, Mesopotamia, August 179
The summer heat was oppressive, the sky a perfect blue under the scorching sun. Yet Marcus Aurelius did not feel it too much, being in the shadow of the great temple of Babylon with his escort while the high priest gave him a tour of the facilities.
Babylon had known a new lend of life when Ctesiphon had been destroyed following its capture fifteen years earlier. Too exposed, on the wrong side of the Tigris, it had been deemed indefensible. A number of the survivor had come to the old city, looking for safety behind its crumbling walls among the ruins of the houses that littered the vast defended perimeter.
Following hard on their heels had been the emperor Marcus Aurelius himself, who’d received the capitulation of the city and decided to make it one of the main cities of the newly conquered areas. Rebuilding had followed, starting with the walls.
A full legion, the IV Scythica, had been based on one side of it while the rest was given to the civilians. A number of the palaces had been restored and modernized and the legion had spent quite a lot of time repairing the old walls, adding a layer of baked bricks on top of the decaying raw earth ones, reinforcing angles with stones carried by boat from the higher reaches of the Euphrates, improving the defenses with a dry and a wet moat, turning the place into a massive fortress that doubled with an important trading center, its religious prestige also playing a massive role as did its privileged links with Alexandria and its library.
The blue gate had been repaired with new brilliant tiles, the great ziggurats themselves had begun to undergo a number of restorations, and gold shone once more from the roof of the highest temple of the city, providing a second sun that was like a beacon for the whole area.
The scale of the change astonished the emperor, although he knew it was only a reflection of the scale of the trade going through the city thanks to its position on the Euphrates at the point where an important road turned inland toward Voltinia Capitolina in Iudea.
Thinking of the road made the Emperor’s mind move to all he’d seen and learned since leaving the Bosphorus kingdom, some three month ago.
So far the stay of the emperor in the far eastern reaches of his empire had been most interesting. A lot of the destruction of the last great Parthian war was still visible, with a number of fields still abandoned and their irrigations channels filled with sand while some cities had never recovered from the sieges that had led to their capture, but in other places things had taken a turn for the best. Regular relay stations were found on the river side, helping boost trade by providing the boatmen with places to eat, sleep or change animals when going against the current.
The places also acted as relay for the telegraph chain that ran alongside the river until it turned for Antiocheia, with branches across the mesopotamia proper to the forts on the Tigris river. Another line of telegraph went from Babylon to Voltinia Capitolina, providing quick communication with the rest of the empire despite the desert.
Overall this province, despite having been set up much more recently than any other, had better infrastructure than many older ones the Emperor had crossed until then on his journey through the empire. Of course the heavy military presence helped explain a lot of it. But Marcus Aurelius also noted some unsanctioned uses of the telegraph that explained why the trade was booming : indeed he’d seen a number of time the telegraphs’ wings move but no message being given to him, for traders paid for the privilege of sending messages about the cargo they sent on the telegraph service…
At first he’d been incensed, then intrigued by the practice. He’d inquired about it after arriving in Babylon and been surprised to learn how much of a change the quick relay of information could impact the trading practices. He’d even ordered his officials to look into how the telegraph and cursus system could eventually be opened to private communication instead of being a state only post system.
But not everything was good in the region. From his exchanges with the Armenian king, guardian of the Caucasus and northernmost reaches of the land of the two rivers, and from what his officials in Antiocheia Mygdonia and Babylon had told him, the situation further east was ever more chaotic. Now that the sickness had receded after killing so many on the Parthian plateau the region was prey to intercine wars for domination over the area and, more frighteningly, raids from scythian nomads coming through western Bactria, on the fringe of the Kushan empire, and ransoming cities. At this rate it would not be long before the steppe tribes would think of permanently setting in the rich lands of the plateau…
Traders on the sea route to India also reported that some of the raids took the direction of the further east, coming in the lands behind the mountains where they fought the Kushan under their emperor Huvishka, never remaining for long but causing lot of damages and disrupting the land roads, thus improving the revenues of the sailors who dared compete with the Jews of Qeshm.
He’d talked with the Jews of Qeshm’ factor in Babylon, who had confirmed the information he’d received, and who had pleaded for the Jews’ return to the empire. The man, whom Marcus Aurelius suspected of being a Jew hiding his true faith but whom he had not put to the test, had been most eloquent but had not been promised anything but some thinking on the matter. Among the tidbits of information he’d provided was also intelligence about small Jewish communities scattered between Mesopotamia and the Kushite kingdom, often in isolated valleys where they tried to make their traditions survive. They were not important enough to be a threat to the empire but were one more reason not to expend any further in that direction.
Soon he’d be parting with the Sericans : while they had initially planned to part ways in Alexandria, it had finally been decided they would leave from Charax and be carried back home by the ships of Qeshm, going along with a number of roman ambassadors carrying gifts. The decision had been made while at sea on the Euxine and messages sent once they’d reached land so everything and everyone needed was ready to start the journey. The ships would also bring back home the two alexandrian scholars who had stayed behind, if they had not left already on their own means or with the expedition the Sericans were supposed to send to Rome.
The summer heat was oppressive, the sky a perfect blue under the scorching sun. Yet Marcus Aurelius did not feel it too much, being in the shadow of the great temple of Babylon with his escort while the high priest gave him a tour of the facilities.
Babylon had known a new lend of life when Ctesiphon had been destroyed following its capture fifteen years earlier. Too exposed, on the wrong side of the Tigris, it had been deemed indefensible. A number of the survivor had come to the old city, looking for safety behind its crumbling walls among the ruins of the houses that littered the vast defended perimeter.
Following hard on their heels had been the emperor Marcus Aurelius himself, who’d received the capitulation of the city and decided to make it one of the main cities of the newly conquered areas. Rebuilding had followed, starting with the walls.
A full legion, the IV Scythica, had been based on one side of it while the rest was given to the civilians. A number of the palaces had been restored and modernized and the legion had spent quite a lot of time repairing the old walls, adding a layer of baked bricks on top of the decaying raw earth ones, reinforcing angles with stones carried by boat from the higher reaches of the Euphrates, improving the defenses with a dry and a wet moat, turning the place into a massive fortress that doubled with an important trading center, its religious prestige also playing a massive role as did its privileged links with Alexandria and its library.
The blue gate had been repaired with new brilliant tiles, the great ziggurats themselves had begun to undergo a number of restorations, and gold shone once more from the roof of the highest temple of the city, providing a second sun that was like a beacon for the whole area.
The scale of the change astonished the emperor, although he knew it was only a reflection of the scale of the trade going through the city thanks to its position on the Euphrates at the point where an important road turned inland toward Voltinia Capitolina in Iudea.
Thinking of the road made the Emperor’s mind move to all he’d seen and learned since leaving the Bosphorus kingdom, some three month ago.
So far the stay of the emperor in the far eastern reaches of his empire had been most interesting. A lot of the destruction of the last great Parthian war was still visible, with a number of fields still abandoned and their irrigations channels filled with sand while some cities had never recovered from the sieges that had led to their capture, but in other places things had taken a turn for the best. Regular relay stations were found on the river side, helping boost trade by providing the boatmen with places to eat, sleep or change animals when going against the current.
The places also acted as relay for the telegraph chain that ran alongside the river until it turned for Antiocheia, with branches across the mesopotamia proper to the forts on the Tigris river. Another line of telegraph went from Babylon to Voltinia Capitolina, providing quick communication with the rest of the empire despite the desert.
Overall this province, despite having been set up much more recently than any other, had better infrastructure than many older ones the Emperor had crossed until then on his journey through the empire. Of course the heavy military presence helped explain a lot of it. But Marcus Aurelius also noted some unsanctioned uses of the telegraph that explained why the trade was booming : indeed he’d seen a number of time the telegraphs’ wings move but no message being given to him, for traders paid for the privilege of sending messages about the cargo they sent on the telegraph service…
At first he’d been incensed, then intrigued by the practice. He’d inquired about it after arriving in Babylon and been surprised to learn how much of a change the quick relay of information could impact the trading practices. He’d even ordered his officials to look into how the telegraph and cursus system could eventually be opened to private communication instead of being a state only post system.
But not everything was good in the region. From his exchanges with the Armenian king, guardian of the Caucasus and northernmost reaches of the land of the two rivers, and from what his officials in Antiocheia Mygdonia and Babylon had told him, the situation further east was ever more chaotic. Now that the sickness had receded after killing so many on the Parthian plateau the region was prey to intercine wars for domination over the area and, more frighteningly, raids from scythian nomads coming through western Bactria, on the fringe of the Kushan empire, and ransoming cities. At this rate it would not be long before the steppe tribes would think of permanently setting in the rich lands of the plateau…
Traders on the sea route to India also reported that some of the raids took the direction of the further east, coming in the lands behind the mountains where they fought the Kushan under their emperor Huvishka, never remaining for long but causing lot of damages and disrupting the land roads, thus improving the revenues of the sailors who dared compete with the Jews of Qeshm.
He’d talked with the Jews of Qeshm’ factor in Babylon, who had confirmed the information he’d received, and who had pleaded for the Jews’ return to the empire. The man, whom Marcus Aurelius suspected of being a Jew hiding his true faith but whom he had not put to the test, had been most eloquent but had not been promised anything but some thinking on the matter. Among the tidbits of information he’d provided was also intelligence about small Jewish communities scattered between Mesopotamia and the Kushite kingdom, often in isolated valleys where they tried to make their traditions survive. They were not important enough to be a threat to the empire but were one more reason not to expend any further in that direction.
Soon he’d be parting with the Sericans : while they had initially planned to part ways in Alexandria, it had finally been decided they would leave from Charax and be carried back home by the ships of Qeshm, going along with a number of roman ambassadors carrying gifts. The decision had been made while at sea on the Euxine and messages sent once they’d reached land so everything and everyone needed was ready to start the journey. The ships would also bring back home the two alexandrian scholars who had stayed behind, if they had not left already on their own means or with the expedition the Sericans were supposed to send to Rome.
I like it idea that the traders can bribe there way using the signaling towers, that could be made to be a fee instead.
Shouldn't the Romans be more interested in renovating the City of Seleucia-on-Tigris rather than Babylon. The city is Greek after all and should be more familiar and acceptable then the half dead hedonistic city of Babylonian.
Shouldn't the Romans be more interested in renovating the City of Seleucia-on-Tigris rather than Babylon. The city is Greek after all and should be more familiar and acceptable then the half dead hedonistic city of Babylonian.
Hecatee
Donor
Tigris is on the border itself, romans liked to put their legions somewhat behind the front line made of auxiliary units, the Rhine and Danube were a bit of an exception there, and Babylon was an important crossroad, and while crumbling it was a symbol. Also it was still a repository of knowledge, which was sent to Alexandria after its conquest but endare it to Marcus Aurelius.
I'm not sure if it's too late to be pointing this out, but what happened here? I was reading through the story again and an earlier post had Herodus having a son with his wife, and a later one had him having no children.
Hecatee
Donor
Herodes Atticus does not want to see his son inherit it all, wiping the slate clean when exiled. Bradua and him did not seem to have seen eye to eye OTL and here the forced separation make their relations worse, especially as Herodes Atticus is offically condemned for the murder of Bradua's mother.
What I meant was the first quote said his new wife had given him a son, meaning the King's sister, so what happened to that son?