Hadrian's Consolidation - reboot
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Hecatee
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He speaks little latin, is secure, has a predictable life, without any complication, does not really suffer from his condition... Fear of the unknown... I also understand that in some places in the US South some slaves did not really want to be set free (when their owner treated them well of course !)
That is a greatly exaggerated phenomenon, limited to a very small number of elderly individuals, trumpeted by Lost Causers.
Of course, Classical slavery was generally not as bad as American slavery, but there were certainty quite a few situations were it was worse.
This situation, where the guy in question is literally working on a chain gang, would seem about equivalent to American field hands.
Hecatee
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He does not know it but yes there is a trick : the start up money is lended, and is to be repaid at interest, so in fact its more going from slavery to a kind of indentured labor. but the slaves are not educated enough to understand it. As for the wife and such, little chance for them to find one in rural context with them having little latin language skill.
I think the questions raised about religion are pertinent, but I trust Hecatee will handle this issue well. He has given us no reasons to doubt him so far 
The main issues are that without changes the old pagan cults can't endure the new religions which appeal to the "modern" man. And as Timmy said currently there is little impetus for reform and by the time there will be it may be too late and the new faiths are too deeply rooted. Looking forward to seeing how it all develops.
The main issues are that without changes the old pagan cults can't endure the new religions which appeal to the "modern" man. And as Timmy said currently there is little impetus for reform and by the time there will be it may be too late and the new faiths are too deeply rooted. Looking forward to seeing how it all develops.
Long time reader of this thread, love the way it's going and looking forward to more
If Mesopotamia is well defended and the Empire is investing in infrastructure like they should I'd imagine that its becoming a very lucrative province for them. between its grain production and its great position for trade Mesopotamia was always wealthy, under Rome it has the potential to do even better
If Mesopotamia is well defended and the Empire is investing in infrastructure like they should I'd imagine that its becoming a very lucrative province for them. between its grain production and its great position for trade Mesopotamia was always wealthy, under Rome it has the potential to do even better
I noticed this on rereading. If the Emperor wants to know of the Goths and the other tribes east of the Elbe he only need ask the commander of his guard, and likely many members of the rank and file have similar insight.
The cult of Sol Invictus is always a favorite of mine for a non-Christian Roman religion. It had gained enough steam by the time of Marcus Aurelius to be an official cult, and by the time of St Augustine, it was still enough of a threat against Christianity that it had to be addressed specifically and preached against.
I also like Manicheism and Buddhism as replacements. The fun part about Buddhism is that if it encountered Roman philosophers they would interpret it as a very dedicated Stoicism. It also doesn't need to replace native gods.
I also like Manicheism and Buddhism as replacements. The fun part about Buddhism is that if it encountered Roman philosophers they would interpret it as a very dedicated Stoicism. It also doesn't need to replace native gods.
I can definitely see the appeal in saying that I worshiped the Unconquered Sun. Being able to say that I do "Praise the Sun!" would be a bigger draw for me than I'd care to admit.
Is the presence of wheelbarrows here a change, or do you go by the theory that the Greeks and Romans had their own version of this? (There is some written evidence, but no archaeological or pictorial evidence)
Post 1012, the author asserts that Greeks had wheelbarrows. So, the latter.
Hecatee
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I think the questions raised about religion are pertinent, but I trust Hecatee will handle this issue well. He has given us no reasons to doubt him so far
The main issues are that without changes the old pagan cults can't endure the new religions which appeal to the "modern" man. And as Timmy said currently there is little impetus for reform and by the time there will be it may be too late and the new faiths are too deeply rooted. Looking forward to seeing how it all develops.
Thanks for the vote of confidence
I must confess I tend to go toward a mix of stoicism and confusianism + ancestor cult becoming the dominant philosophy of the empire, even among the lower stratae of the population, instead of organized religion and certainly instead of monotheism. This culture could be further diffused than OTL by more people in the service of the state, more exchanges between top elites and middle elites (and from there toward the people), and massive and efficient use of the state's propaganda (which was very, very efficient). I won't go into further details right now.I will go into more details in a future update, in four or five weeks, but I think we have two main drivers in Mesopotamia right now : less fertile lands due to the war devastating a lot of the land and the irrigation network, leading to higher ground salinity; less trade in middle and northern Mesopotamia due to the chaos in Iranian plateau but more trade in the south from sea trade not taking the red sea (or trade being carried at a different time than the red sea trade)
It is done of course, but his intel is already rather old, beside in the conversation the emperor will never show how well informed he is, to detect lies and not show any weakness
Two of those would still be going the monotheistic way, which I don't really want, as well as the organized religion's way. Buddhism adapted could be a way, but as stated above I'd rather go with confusianism.
I go for wider use of a OTL greek/roman version of the wheelbarrow.
Hecatee
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In fact I usually try to find obscure elements of trivia info (even if sadly I don't own a copy of the DAGR) and spin it into the story and make it bigger than OTL
While I've indeed had some inventions, including some that stretch plausibility (the prototype steam boat in the chinese expedition, the ships of the chinese expedition, the invention of zero, ...) many of the changes included here are based on texts such as Pliny's or modern research less known from the general public but of which I've heardI fail to see why the empire would realistically unify under one religion or philosophy given that its economy and demographics is still going to be highly regional even with improved infrastructure and higher trade levels. Linguistically, I can still at least see Latin and Greek halves of the empire turning out differently.
China by contrast, had the original Yellow river civilization with its particular values spreading outwards due to superior demographics with large scale Han settlement and conquest which dwarfed the number and population of the Roman colonies. Then there's the east which was not settled by Romans from Italy at all. All this is why China ended up with a more unified philosophy, religion than Rome even without monotheism.
If you don't go with any monotheism or organized religion, there will be even less impetus than OTL to have a scientific revolution/investigate basic science and mathematics. Realistically speaking, Roman science will remain dedicated to practical endeavours, which places a ceiling as to how advanced such a society could become. Religion served a function historically in encouraging the development of systematic approaches to science and promoted abstract theorizing and research that had less to do with practical concerns than purely revealing and discovering "God's creations and mysteries."
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Hecatee
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While ITTL no one is looking for the "thruth of the God's creation" they do have practical streak leading them to research a number of things and to understand why something works better than something else. For instance chemistry will develop from experimentation in glassmaking and metalurgy. Not even that "god" nonsense also mean they are less locked into doctrinal issues, there is no reason to sentance Galileo in this world because your research is not going against any sanctified teaching, so to me science would go forward differently than OTL but faster. Not to say it won't have its mistakes and that everything will be successfull, after all alchemy already exists, but it will be better than OTL I think.
As for cultural and religious uniformity, christianity's history shows that its possible to have a largely dominant culture spread all over the empire if the political will is there. But I do agree that there would be local variations (as there were OTL, the god Mercury or Mars is not the same thing for a Gaul, a Roman and an African for instance) and the greek vs latin divide is indeed present. But the fact their is more contacts and permeability between the top elite and the local elites help diffuse the elite's world view, and other elements such as the scholarships I mentionned in the recent Pergamon update also help spread the dominant ideology. So while it will not be fully China like, it will have some aspects of it but in a different way. Butterfly have been flapping their wings hard for a number of decades now, and it begins to show.
Without the factor of organized religion, science in the west will increasingly resemble that of China, which is concerned almost solely with practical problems. There will be less of a motivation to investigate basic science, so that while China was ahead of the West for long periods of time when they were muddled in doctrinal disputes, eventually the West caught up and overtook them because they took especial care to investigate basic science (motivated by religious concerns), which allowed them to build a solid foundation for advanced development subsequently. Almost all the scientists of the renaissance period for example were devoted religious adherents who thought they were doing God's work and so they were willing to muddle through severely impractical and totally economically unrewarding activities.
Without this factor, you need either a special god for learning to motivate people to do the same, or a special virtue (in the Roman version of confucianism) that encourages scientists to make these (otherwise seemingly pointless) sacrifices to investigate basic science.
I would have to see the details, but I think you're leaning to much on the Chinsese influence here. It's not likely to be so strong, regardless of its influence of Marcus Aurelius. The incredible distance alone makes that so.Thanks for the vote of confidence
The key to capturing the hearts of the common people in the empire and meeting their spiritual needs is to provide an answer to what comes next, while syncretizing with their folk ways. Christianity leaned more on the first than the second, but I can't see how Stoicism+Confusianism really meets either. The cycle of karma and rebirth being transmitted from India would seem to be a better option if you're looking for eastern non-monotheistic influences. Proximity helps as well. We have founded Hindu idols in the ruins of Pompeii.