Hadrian's Consolidation - reboot
- Thread starter Hecatee
- Start date
The key difference is that instead of bringing that condition within Rome's borders, it is extending them outside.
However, while this is true, the land between the Elbe in the Rhine is clearly within Rome's reach.
I imagine that Marxus Aurelius thinks of this as a step on the road to peacefully annexing that territory.
Hecatee
Donor
Well, I think that there's a reason that Monotheism won out in most places other than India, so unless the Romans pick up reincarnation and karma from Hinduism via syncretism, I think think they're unlikely to stay polytheistic. But, if not we can agree to disagree.
Civilian clothes? Dressed like a senator then?
Can you give more detail on how this deal will work?
EDIT: Also, does Roman Mesopotamia go down to the Persian Gulf, the big map on page 59 makes it unclear.
EDIT 2: Looks like worldhistorymaps is down! Really hope that website is renewed and not deleted. I didn't save all those maps.
I hope to do something else with philosophy and religion in this roman empire
I that I only follow in the steps of the philosopher Charles Renouvier, the first to coin the word "uchronie" for alternate history in the title of his philosophical novel of how a roman empire managed to crush christianity in the 2nd century and strenghtened itself for a better future (and I don't recommand reading the book because its rather awful in style)Civilian clothes : full purple toga and purple tunica, but not in armour like usually in such a meeting
About the deal I was voluntarily unclear so that I could go back to it in a later post
but mostly in the end the structure will be the same as in other provinces except that instead of being organized by villages/town/cities and local officials whose elites choose their own local rulers but get a completely external top administration here the king will get the right to designate the lower officials and he will have a veto on any decision by the external governor and will be considered as a high ranking equestrian. A period of adaptation will be put in place for changes in the law, especially on inheritance, with the king being judge for all issues to be considered under the old laws (to concern everyone born before the deal) and the governor being the judge for everything concerning people born after the deal of for issues concerning someone falling under local law and someone falling under roman law, roman law being dominant in such a case. The king will also be tribune of one of the five cohors milliaria that his tribe will provideAbout Mesopotamia : yes Charax and the delta of the Tigris and Euphrates is Roman
Once more the key thing here is that the demographic is cut short very early : Polycarp of Smyrna (d. 156), and the philosopher Justin (d.c. 165), important early disseminators of the faith, do not arise here because the heavy hand of the state falls on christians as early as 135 due to their perceived "jewishness", and proscription-like techniques are implemented to root them out, along with heavy negative propaganda. The true purges are mostly 3rd century affairs OTL, here they happen a good 70 years earlier. Around 100 CE and up to the third century sanctions were rare and Pliny's testimony shows the conditions in which they were applied and those where things were left to pass, here pursuit is much more systematic. We also see that in the book of acts, written around 100 CE and in which roman intervention mostly happens when riots occurs due to theological disputes. In the 100-140's the christian are in full apocaliptic mode, it is only in the later part of the century that they go to building their communities because there is a future. Here the apocalypses falls upon them, not in the way described by John of Patmos but in a very concreet maneer.
For more details on OTL here is an article : http://www.bu.edu/religion/files/pd...oman-Empire-in-the-first-three-centuries-.pdf
Goth'cha
It is foederati-ish and is meant to cause inconfort, especially given that the Cherusci are Arminius' tribe... Now see my answer to Timmy811, you can see that it is only in part true, and the way it is done is very different from Foederati : it's not someone coming inside and getting lands and rights but someone asking to see its lands added to the empire and getting its protection, but also getting roman law in a generation (if the agreement holds that long) and roman institutions somewhat more like some Thracian tribes or the hellenistic cities in the East got when they were included in the empire.
One of the reasons monotheism won was pratictability. It was easier to pray in one God who did everything, compared to several who did each their own thing. If you want to keep polytheism, you should at least limit the number to a fixed amount (no more adding pantheon left and right), and organizing it better. Writing down a set of info and rules and a compelling "world building" similar to what happened with Christianity.
To come at this from a gaming perspective, I think the ability to reform polytheistic faiths into more organized religions is quite well modeled in Crusader Kings 2. However they are acting under pressure from an outside force, Christian states. There is no outside force acting on the Romans here, instead it is internal. And once you get to the point where you realize you need those kinds of religious reforms, the Christians or Buddhists or what have you have gained numbers, credibility and momentum, so why go for a copy cat act?
Governor’s palace, Colonia Agrippina, late September 178
Hecatee
Donor
Governor’s palace, Colonia Agrippina, late September 178
The man was old, ancient really. Or at least so it seemed, although he was in fact only in his sixth decade. His hands, gnarled like an old tree’s roots, bore the marks of countless burns and a lifetime of work. Yet he was richly clothed, his toga as fine as any equestrian’s one, which was only fair as he was a member of the rich class.
He'd never entered the cursus publicus, spending his life in his workshop working with fire, glass and powders to create marvels or with ink and papyrus or parchment to do accounting or deal with the responsibilities that were his by virtue of being the head of the glassmakers’ college, and only reaching the equestrian census at an age too advanced to enter the public career.
Titus Claudius Cicero had invented new ways to work the glass, and improved on old techniques. His work on glass colours was renowned, the result of numerous experiments throughout the years, and he was now about to present his masterpiece to the most powerful man of the empire.
He’d known he’d wanted to meet with the emperor the moment he’d heard of his coming, four months before. Since then he’d spent most of his time in his workshop, getting his gift ready. Once he’d been reasonably confident of his success he’d sought out the governor and made sure he’d arrange an audience with the emperor, a bag of gold sealing the deal.
Now he was about to meet the emperor. The gift was already in the audience chamber of the palace, hidden behind a cloth, but it was in fact just a pretense. He had another gift for Marcus Aurelius, one much more precious…
Around him a number of people also waited for their audience with the Princeps. Most came to ask for favours, but not Claudius Cicero : he only wanted to gift. Patiently he waited, going through the pages of the codex his slave carried for him and which was the true reason for his presence.
Finally the moment came. A slave called for his name and he came to the door of the audience hall, which then opened to let him in while his name was shouted by the chambelland. Around a hundred men were waiting in the room, which was dominated by an estrade on which stood an ivory curule chair, a masterpiece of sculpture, on which sat the Emperor.
Walking about twenty pace to the spot indicated by an attendant, Claudius Cicero bowed respectfully to his lord who greeted him, allowing him to raise his head. “Princeps, I’ve come to make you two gifts. The first I hope will please you while the second I hope may interest you.”
Behind him two slaves had pushed the rolling frame on which lay his masterpiece. Taking the clothe away, the glassmaker showed to the amazed crowd his larger than life imperial portrait made in the millefiori technique : thousands of pieces of glass rods welded together formed the image, somewhat mosaic like but translucent too as he demonstrated by moving a torch behind the glass panel.
A number of the rods he’d especially made using thin sheets of gold that now shined under the light, giving a brilliant halo around the head of the emperor. It was a wonder as the Empire had never seen, and well worth the praise it would get in later literature. The method used made the curls of the hair and of the bard lifelike, the moving light giving the illusion of movement, while the eyes shone as if an intellect was trapped in the panel.
At least as impressive was the large range of colors displayed in the panel : it seemed that all the shades of the world had been captured, with vibrant reds, deep purples, wonderful blues and greens, dark blacks and so many other hues which none could remember ever seeing in glass.
“This, Princeps, is the gift that I hope will please you. This is all my skill could do to render honor to the ruler of the Res Publica. But my other gift, although in appearance more modest, might interest you more as it may prove of use to the empire. Two years ago my apprentice died of a wound caused by the carelessness of a slave who poured molten glass on his arm. I have thus no heir for the knowledge I spent a life collecting, and so have decided to entrust it to you.”
On this words he made a sign to his slave who came forward with the massive codex his master had been perusing only moments before. One of the emperor’s attendant came forward to take the gift and bring it to the emperor.
“In this I compiled the results of the methodical research I’ve been doing into glassmaking and colors. The effect of flames on components, the effects of combination of components, how to find the best components in nature as far as the merchants I met could tell me, all organized in a systematic way in a way that would have probably interested Aristotle himself. The copy of the codex you now hold is the true result of my life, and this copy is for you. I have also had five other copies made for the Academia in Rome and four libraries here in Colonia Agripina, in Pergamon, in Alexandria and in Carthago so that this knowledge may be shared with all.”
The man was old, ancient really. Or at least so it seemed, although he was in fact only in his sixth decade. His hands, gnarled like an old tree’s roots, bore the marks of countless burns and a lifetime of work. Yet he was richly clothed, his toga as fine as any equestrian’s one, which was only fair as he was a member of the rich class.
He'd never entered the cursus publicus, spending his life in his workshop working with fire, glass and powders to create marvels or with ink and papyrus or parchment to do accounting or deal with the responsibilities that were his by virtue of being the head of the glassmakers’ college, and only reaching the equestrian census at an age too advanced to enter the public career.
Titus Claudius Cicero had invented new ways to work the glass, and improved on old techniques. His work on glass colours was renowned, the result of numerous experiments throughout the years, and he was now about to present his masterpiece to the most powerful man of the empire.
He’d known he’d wanted to meet with the emperor the moment he’d heard of his coming, four months before. Since then he’d spent most of his time in his workshop, getting his gift ready. Once he’d been reasonably confident of his success he’d sought out the governor and made sure he’d arrange an audience with the emperor, a bag of gold sealing the deal.
Now he was about to meet the emperor. The gift was already in the audience chamber of the palace, hidden behind a cloth, but it was in fact just a pretense. He had another gift for Marcus Aurelius, one much more precious…
Around him a number of people also waited for their audience with the Princeps. Most came to ask for favours, but not Claudius Cicero : he only wanted to gift. Patiently he waited, going through the pages of the codex his slave carried for him and which was the true reason for his presence.
Finally the moment came. A slave called for his name and he came to the door of the audience hall, which then opened to let him in while his name was shouted by the chambelland. Around a hundred men were waiting in the room, which was dominated by an estrade on which stood an ivory curule chair, a masterpiece of sculpture, on which sat the Emperor.
Walking about twenty pace to the spot indicated by an attendant, Claudius Cicero bowed respectfully to his lord who greeted him, allowing him to raise his head. “Princeps, I’ve come to make you two gifts. The first I hope will please you while the second I hope may interest you.”
Behind him two slaves had pushed the rolling frame on which lay his masterpiece. Taking the clothe away, the glassmaker showed to the amazed crowd his larger than life imperial portrait made in the millefiori technique : thousands of pieces of glass rods welded together formed the image, somewhat mosaic like but translucent too as he demonstrated by moving a torch behind the glass panel.
A number of the rods he’d especially made using thin sheets of gold that now shined under the light, giving a brilliant halo around the head of the emperor. It was a wonder as the Empire had never seen, and well worth the praise it would get in later literature. The method used made the curls of the hair and of the bard lifelike, the moving light giving the illusion of movement, while the eyes shone as if an intellect was trapped in the panel.
At least as impressive was the large range of colors displayed in the panel : it seemed that all the shades of the world had been captured, with vibrant reds, deep purples, wonderful blues and greens, dark blacks and so many other hues which none could remember ever seeing in glass.
“This, Princeps, is the gift that I hope will please you. This is all my skill could do to render honor to the ruler of the Res Publica. But my other gift, although in appearance more modest, might interest you more as it may prove of use to the empire. Two years ago my apprentice died of a wound caused by the carelessness of a slave who poured molten glass on his arm. I have thus no heir for the knowledge I spent a life collecting, and so have decided to entrust it to you.”
On this words he made a sign to his slave who came forward with the massive codex his master had been perusing only moments before. One of the emperor’s attendant came forward to take the gift and bring it to the emperor.
“In this I compiled the results of the methodical research I’ve been doing into glassmaking and colors. The effect of flames on components, the effects of combination of components, how to find the best components in nature as far as the merchants I met could tell me, all organized in a systematic way in a way that would have probably interested Aristotle himself. The copy of the codex you now hold is the true result of my life, and this copy is for you. I have also had five other copies made for the Academia in Rome and four libraries here in Colonia Agripina, in Pergamon, in Alexandria and in Carthago so that this knowledge may be shared with all.”
Holy Shit, I can't imagine a better gift 4 the Emperor. His name will be known as the Father of Glass Making! Great chapter as always (^o^)
Hecatee
Donor
Not really stained glass, it is made with a roman technique that gives a very different result :Stained glass?!
The temples of Rome will be even more epic...
here's an historical (non figurative) example found in archeological context in Britain :
and another from the late Republican period :
As far as I know no figurative example is actually known
Be luckier than Augustus, and better than Trajan. That's the advice the Senate would offer new Emperors. I have a feeling Marcus Aurelius will be replacing Trajan in that line.
Marcus Aurelius utterly destroyed the Parthian Empire, capturing Hatra, which Trajan could not do and won the battle of Ctesiphon, which is easily the most important Roman battle since Actium. This lead to the collapse of the Parthian Empire as a functioning state and the complete annexation of Mesoptamia down to the Persian Gulf.
Defeated the Marcomanni and their allies in a crushing victory over the Germans, the likes not seen since Gaius Marius destroyed the Cimbri in 101 BC. This led to the annexation of the modern Czech basin and the southern half of Germany.
He has basically negotiated the peaceful annexation of northern Germany, between the Rhine and the Elbe, reversing all the territory lost by Augustus after the defeat of Varus. This shortens Rome's northern border considerably.
Ordered the construction of the Tulouse-Narbonne canal. Order engineers to drain the Pontic Marshes.
Reorganized the provinces and local government of the empire.
Sent out the first successful diplomatic/trade mission to the Han Empire. This has resulted in peaceful contact and significant cultural and technological exchange.
The empire has undergone noted economic, technological and demographic growth while under his rule. Internal peace has been maintained, with the small exception of Caledonia, where a barbarian incursion supported by rebels was quickly crushed.
-----
All in all, a better record then any Emperor, with the only possible exception of Augustus who had the challenge of stabilizing a state ravaged by generations of cyclical civil war.
Questions - Has he written his Meditations in this timeline? How successful has the attempt to drain the marsh been? Has he sponsored any buildings of note within Rome themselves?
Marcus Aurelius utterly destroyed the Parthian Empire, capturing Hatra, which Trajan could not do and won the battle of Ctesiphon, which is easily the most important Roman battle since Actium. This lead to the collapse of the Parthian Empire as a functioning state and the complete annexation of Mesoptamia down to the Persian Gulf.
Defeated the Marcomanni and their allies in a crushing victory over the Germans, the likes not seen since Gaius Marius destroyed the Cimbri in 101 BC. This led to the annexation of the modern Czech basin and the southern half of Germany.
He has basically negotiated the peaceful annexation of northern Germany, between the Rhine and the Elbe, reversing all the territory lost by Augustus after the defeat of Varus. This shortens Rome's northern border considerably.
Ordered the construction of the Tulouse-Narbonne canal. Order engineers to drain the Pontic Marshes.
Reorganized the provinces and local government of the empire.
Sent out the first successful diplomatic/trade mission to the Han Empire. This has resulted in peaceful contact and significant cultural and technological exchange.
The empire has undergone noted economic, technological and demographic growth while under his rule. Internal peace has been maintained, with the small exception of Caledonia, where a barbarian incursion supported by rebels was quickly crushed.
-----
All in all, a better record then any Emperor, with the only possible exception of Augustus who had the challenge of stabilizing a state ravaged by generations of cyclical civil war.
Questions - Has he written his Meditations in this timeline? How successful has the attempt to drain the marsh been? Has he sponsored any buildings of note within Rome themselves?
Hecatee
Donor
Actually roman glassware was not really produced in Italy : modern Köln (Colonia Agrippina) and Syria were the two main production areas
Hecatee
Donor
That pretty much sums it, does it not ? It is indeed the culmination of Hadrian's consolidation, and a number of factors that ended the Pax Romana have been pushed back to the future and/or eliminated, but this also leads to new challenges...
He did write his Meditations, for many of the issues he wrote about are issues that rose, in a different way, in this life. So while some details might be different, it remains essentially the same in terms of content.
Then add writing a a seminal work of philosophy to his list of accomplishments.
What of the marshes and Rome itself?
With these many changes, I look forward to your new map of the Roman Empire toward the end of Marcus Aurelius' reign.
Roman Empire won't change much, just adding the rest of Germania between the Rhine and the Elbe.
I am interested in seeing the changes to Iran/India though.
And where exactly does the border in the east lie. Hatra and Characene annexed along with the land west of the Tigris and Euphrates. But what of the plain east of that and west of the mountains? What of Adiabene and Atropane? Did Aremenia grow at their expense? Have the Kushans pushed west?
http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_200ad.jpg
Website is back up. Must have reregistered.
EDIT: One possible mistake with that map, weren't the Minyue conquered by the Han by that point, or did they pop up again as the Han declined?
Pomptinae Paludes, near Taracina, Latium, March 179
Hecatee
Donor
Pomptinae Paludes, near Taracina, Latium, March 179
Germanicus looked at the windmill in front of him, one of more than two dozen he could see around him. The winter winds had caused a lot of damage to the sails, at least two of which had to be replaced, but overall the mill was in good shape and had operated the pump without too much problem, taking water from the field’s ditch to the canal that would ultimately bring it to the sea.
Now that winter was coming to an end it was time to make the necessary preparations for the coming work. Till the fields, plant the seeds, clean up the ditches, there was so much work to do. This was his tenth year as a slave on the property of the Claudii Pompeiani, he’d been captured during the Marcomaning wars when he was a strong young warrior. His time in Germania was now almost a distant memory, replaced by the dull experience of his life on the lands of his owner.
At least the weather was better, much milder than what he’d known in the germanic forests. And he did not have to wonder about food either, nor about clothes : everything was provided, as was a bed in the windmill. He had to work, work hard too, but until now he’d always had the strength, except four years ago when he’d gotten sick in the winter, luckily at a period when little work was expected of him.
A tug on his ankle chain brought him back to the present. The two other slaves of his gang needed him to move the plough. The chain was indeed an inconvenience, but he supposed it was to be expected. He was a slave after all, and some always tried to escape. He could still remember when, early after his arrival in Italy, a group of five of his brethren had fled and been hunted down by his master’s guards. They’d lasted three days on the cross set on a chariot that had followed the work gang to the working place of the day. That was when he’d decided to accept the role fate had defined for him : too harsh a way to leave this world, and no glory in it. None in being a slave either, but at least no unnecessary pain.
A noise behind him make him look. A small group of men on mules had appeared and looked to be coming their way. Given the stupid hat it was probably the estate’s villicus come check on their work. He’d better make his best to do what was expected of him. The man was rather nasty…
A few minutes later his gang was hailed. They all stopped and went back to the road on the dyke between the ditch and the canal where the villicus awaited them.
“Men. You’ve been here for ten years. Not many have survived that long. Our master, the august senator Claudius Pompeius, has seen it fit to recognize this endurance and make you an offer. If you want it you can receive a plot of land next to the estate and start to cultivate it for yourself, as freed men. He’ll provide you with some money to start things, and during three years you’ll be able to benefit from the support of the estate in case you are short on food or funds, and then you’ll be independant. Being freed you’ll be able to have wives and children, for you to cherish and support. You’ll also be able to buy more marshes to make your land bigger if you think you can handle it. After ten years you’ll be able to sell the land and leave or stay and keep cultivating it, as you see best. What do you say ?”
“Will we be able to buy ourself a slave to help us with the work ?” asked one of the other slaves, Placidius.
“Of course, if you can gather enough money. Slaves are pricey in the area, with all the work and the fact there has been no war in quite some time.”
In the end out of ten slaves present only three took the offer, but Germanicus was not one of them...
Germanicus looked at the windmill in front of him, one of more than two dozen he could see around him. The winter winds had caused a lot of damage to the sails, at least two of which had to be replaced, but overall the mill was in good shape and had operated the pump without too much problem, taking water from the field’s ditch to the canal that would ultimately bring it to the sea.
Now that winter was coming to an end it was time to make the necessary preparations for the coming work. Till the fields, plant the seeds, clean up the ditches, there was so much work to do. This was his tenth year as a slave on the property of the Claudii Pompeiani, he’d been captured during the Marcomaning wars when he was a strong young warrior. His time in Germania was now almost a distant memory, replaced by the dull experience of his life on the lands of his owner.
At least the weather was better, much milder than what he’d known in the germanic forests. And he did not have to wonder about food either, nor about clothes : everything was provided, as was a bed in the windmill. He had to work, work hard too, but until now he’d always had the strength, except four years ago when he’d gotten sick in the winter, luckily at a period when little work was expected of him.
A tug on his ankle chain brought him back to the present. The two other slaves of his gang needed him to move the plough. The chain was indeed an inconvenience, but he supposed it was to be expected. He was a slave after all, and some always tried to escape. He could still remember when, early after his arrival in Italy, a group of five of his brethren had fled and been hunted down by his master’s guards. They’d lasted three days on the cross set on a chariot that had followed the work gang to the working place of the day. That was when he’d decided to accept the role fate had defined for him : too harsh a way to leave this world, and no glory in it. None in being a slave either, but at least no unnecessary pain.
A noise behind him make him look. A small group of men on mules had appeared and looked to be coming their way. Given the stupid hat it was probably the estate’s villicus come check on their work. He’d better make his best to do what was expected of him. The man was rather nasty…
A few minutes later his gang was hailed. They all stopped and went back to the road on the dyke between the ditch and the canal where the villicus awaited them.
“Men. You’ve been here for ten years. Not many have survived that long. Our master, the august senator Claudius Pompeius, has seen it fit to recognize this endurance and make you an offer. If you want it you can receive a plot of land next to the estate and start to cultivate it for yourself, as freed men. He’ll provide you with some money to start things, and during three years you’ll be able to benefit from the support of the estate in case you are short on food or funds, and then you’ll be independant. Being freed you’ll be able to have wives and children, for you to cherish and support. You’ll also be able to buy more marshes to make your land bigger if you think you can handle it. After ten years you’ll be able to sell the land and leave or stay and keep cultivating it, as you see best. What do you say ?”
“Will we be able to buy ourself a slave to help us with the work ?” asked one of the other slaves, Placidius.
“Of course, if you can gather enough money. Slaves are pricey in the area, with all the work and the fact there has been no war in quite some time.”
In the end out of ten slaves present only three took the offer, but Germanicus was not one of them...
Hecatee
Donor
Roman Empire won't change much, just adding the rest of Germania between the Rhine and the Elbe.
I am interested in seeing the changes to Iran/India though.
And where exactly does the border in the east lie. Hatra and Characene annexed along with the land west of the Tigris and Euphrates. But what of the plain east of that and west of the mountains? What of Adiabene and Atropane? Did Aremenia grow at their expense? Have the Kushans pushed west?
http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_200ad.jpg
Website is back up. Must have reregistered.
EDIT: One possible mistake with that map, weren't the Minyue conquered by the Han by that point, or did they pop up again as the Han declined?
Adiabene and Atropatene have broken free of the Parthian in the collapse, and have stayed so since the war because Armenia was not in state of invading, having to integrate new lands and Rome did not care. When the plague started everyone kept away from the place too. Note that Atropatene has some (a half dozen) of those jewish monasteries/small villages set in less travelled valleys with strong defensive attributes.