Affiliated States of Boreoamerica thread

Gian

Banned
@False Dmitri - About your latest Acadia map, I already had much of western Nova Scotia Acadian French. So wouldn't French also be an official language together with Gaelic and Scots*

Also, when can we see a map of all the subdivisions put together.

*With Scotland independent from England, I doubt that English would come to replace Scots as the main language of the country.
 
@False Dmitri - About your latest Acadia map, I already had much of western Nova Scotia Acadian French. So wouldn't French also be an official language together with Gaelic and Scots*

It could be a minority language without being official statewide. But you think it's big enough to be co-official? I can change it if so.

Also, when can we see a map of all the subdivisions put together.

The Acadian subdivisions are especially troublesome, because they were created by joint Scottish-French commissions in the early 19th century to conform to the population patterns at the time. They therefore are very organic-looking and blobby, different from most of the states with their straight line borders. So I'm sorry to say that drawing them is not one of my immediate plans.

*With Scotland independent from England, I doubt that English would come to replace Scots as the main language of the country.
That's a really good point. I had sort of assumed (without actually researching) that the mid 17th century too late for that, that Scots and English were considered one language. I probably was thinking of the King James Bible, which went to the whole of Britain... but looking into it, you're absolutely right. It's plenty early enough for the Scots to consider themselves to have a separate language, and continued independence would encourage that. The question is what would happen in America. In some places, Scots and English speakers would naturally sort of come together, with English usually being favored. Scots speakers there would probably be lumped in with Anglophones. But in other places, Scots would stay proudly distinct. Either way, if Scots is official in New Scotland, then it probably is claimed by at least some speakers in West Acadia. Can West Acadia have five official languages? Is that too much? I suppose it fits with what we know about it, a melting pot of the people from the rest of Acadia.
 

Gian

Banned
It could be a minority language without being official statewide. But you think it's big enough to be co-official? I can change it if so.

It's certainly big enough to warrant official status, so yes I'd probably suggest you change it.

That's a really good point. I had sort of assumed (without actually researching) that the mid 17th century too late for that, that Scots and English were considered one language. I probably was thinking of the King James Bible, which went to the whole of Britain... but looking into it, you're absolutely right. It's plenty early enough for the Scots to consider themselves to have a separate language, and continued independence would encourage that. The question is what would happen in America. In some places, Scots and English speakers would naturally sort of come together, with English usually being favored. Scots speakers there would probably be lumped in with Anglophones. But in other places, Scots would stay proudly distinct. Either way, if Scots is official in New Scotland, then it probably is claimed by at least some speakers in West Acadia. Can West Acadia have five official languages? Is that too much? I suppose it fits with what we know about it, a melting pot of the people from the rest of Acadia.

Scots was already a separate language long before the Union of the Crowns, and perhaps might have diverged even farther from English without the Act of Union:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language#History
 
It's certainly big enough to warrant official status, so yes I'd probably suggest you change it.



Scots was already a separate language long before the Union of the Crowns, and perhaps might have diverged even farther from English without the Act of Union:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language#History

Right, that Wiki page is what I was looking at today. I think the one Hard Fact I had known before was that the Scots adopted the King James Bible, indicating that the path toward being considered a dialect not language had already begun. Sure, but it was still quite early in that process. And separation from England would encourage separation of the languages, both in people's minds and in the schools. Eighteenth-century Scotland seems a very likely place to found a language academy, too, which over the years is surely going to emphasize the differences over the similarities between Scots and English. I'll revise the map and some of the text to reflect all this.
 

Gian

Banned
So @False Dmitri, I'm still sure you could include French as one of NS's official languages (not to mention replacing English with Scots and adding the latter as an official language in West Acadia)
 
So @False Dmitri, I'm still sure you could include French as one of NS's official languages (not to mention replacing English with Scots and adding the latter as an official language in West Acadia)

Here is a revision.
acadie reference smaller.png
 
In making the last map, I re-read the history of Acadia. Now this is a small thing, but I am slightly revising the chronology, specifically deleting this part:

For example, Charles persuaded the new government to abandon its claim over West Acadia. The condominium had become a burden for all parties, and the Acadians in the western region had not been an important part of the Bonapartist movement that had brought Charles to power. The end of mercantilism meant that possessing West Acadia was no longer much of an economic benefit to the East. Better to separate now and end the confusion over the West’s status. The East Acadians hoped that New Scotland would simply follow suit and allow West Acadia to become its own state at last. This the New Scots were not prepared to do; they still viewed their western land as a vital connection to the St. Lawrence River and the fur trade, and the New Scots living in West Acadia continued to oppose statehood. Nevertheless, East Acadia unilaterally dropped its claim, and West Acadia therefore became an autonomous region of New Scotland only. After two hundred years, the shared occupation came to an end.

I wrote it this way mostly to conform with a much earlier post saying that West Acadia had been part of New Scotland before becoming a separate state. But that earlier post had come when I hadn't done any serious reading about Acadian history and culture, and when I was still assuming that Scotland and England had stayed together. Now we know that the history was very different, and for East Acadia to make this decision doesn't make much sense from anyone's point of view. Instead, I'm rewriting the last paragraph of the history:

The shape of modern Acadia came into being in 1866 when West Acadia finally rose to statehood. Until that point, New Scotland had resisted such a change because it continued to see its western land as a vital connection to the St. Lawrence River and the fur trade. But since 1850 the west had seen much development. Railroads were encouraging the growth of towns, and in the towns new banks and schools had appeared: the infrastructure that was needed for a modern state. This was during the administration of Premier Armand Linville at the confederal level, and a spirit of democratic reform was again animating many throughout the ASB. The Principality of Acadia had said for a while that it would support statehood for the west, and now many other states prevailed upon the New Scots to allow it to move forward. They had to bow to the pressure. West Acadia became a state, and the Principality of Acadia became East Acadia. The region took its modern form as four separate states.

It's not a big deal, I know, but it is a change; so there you are. A nice coincidence is that the condominium in Acadia started in the 1660s, and now we know it lasted almost exactly 200 years.
 
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So I was asked by @False Dmitri himself to make a small update with the Watauga border, and here it is:

Thanks Gian. The change is so small it's barely visible, but since this is basically the official map now it should reflect any errors that anyone finds and corrects.

Another change I made recently is that I edited the Upper Louisiana history. No facts changed, but I reorganized the original text, which was a bizarre stream-of-consciousness post, to make more sense, and I added context from other history that's become known since I wrote it three years ago. I'm sharing it because it may be of interest, especially to Gian making the ethnic map; but I'll link to it rather than post it here because there is surprisingly little there about the actual culture and character of the state. I'm slowly working on adding more ideas. https://karnell.weebly.com/upper-louisiana.html
 
How does the government of the ASB function? Is it de facto presidential, semi-presidential, semi-parliamentary?

@Turquoise Blue gets most of the credit for designing the ASB's politics. It's a parliamentary system. Parliament has one chamber. The Grand Council of State has the appearance of being an upper house, but it's more like a collective head of state - except that it more or less controls foreign relations, meaning that there's an interesting separation between foreign and domestic policy. The material on the government, largely written by Turquoise Blue, is collected here: https://karnell.weebly.com/government.html
 
Not sure if this would be useful for Iroquoia, but MonsterTalk just released an episode where they interviewed David Shango from the Seneca Nation Museum (in Salamanca, NY) about the legends and monsters of the Seneca people. Haven't finished listening to it yet, but the bits where David talks about stop signs being in Seneca and meeting with the ambassador of France put me in the mind of the ASB.

Plus there is apparently some oral story about a giant tusked animal destroying a village that modern people believe may have been a reference to a mammoth. Just something cool from the episode I wanted to mention.

I've listened to that episode and liked it very much. :)
 
Awesome idea! Can I add a suggestion? The UK's House of Lords also has Lords Spiritual. I think the ASB can have the same. I think the Chiefly Council should include a few bishops, both Catholic and Angican and one of those Swedish Lutheran Bishops. A gazillion bonus points for somebody who can find a way for a Bishop-Prince to be there too. And because this is in America, there should be presidents of other churches (like Methodist, Baptist, and Mormon) so they don't feel left out. I can see a modern ASB adding leaders of black churches into the mix. And maybe a couple prominent rabbis and during a radical phase even a witch or pagan leader.

So... hm. My first thought was no, that's too weird, no way. On the other hand, looking back at the origins of the Chiefly Council, there definitely were religious leaders, mostly missionaries, who participated in the earlier Grand Councils. I had assumed that these types simply stopped participating as the ASB's institutions evolved into a modern government. I don't know, somehow the Chiefly Council doesn't seem quite right, either. It's not simply an imitation of the House of Lords, after all. Would it make sense for religious leaders to have their own, yet another body? Sort of a First Estate whose role ends up being ecumenical relations.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of some kind of "established pluralism". It fits the culture of the ASB - I have certainly written a lot about religion. And some states have a history of Establishment. Carolina's government *was* explicitly modeled on England's, and Anglican bishops had seats in the upper house until 1903. Labrador, too, had Moravian clergy participate in the government until the 20th century. ... I also think I lean more toward giving them their own separate body rather than make them members of the CC, but there I'm not 100% sure.

I'd like to revisit this. I really do like the idea of a not-quite-government council for religious leaders, similar in status and role to the Chiefly Council. I haven't written anything about it, at least partly because I can't think of a good name for it. Council of Churches gives the wrong impression. But I have a general idea of how it works.

The Grand Councils grew out of the succession of meetings between the French and allied Indian leaders; the Great Peace of Montreal in 1701 is the archetype, and as the councils grew and became more regular, missionaries and later bishops were definitely involved. In the late 1700s and early 1800s, the Grand Council emerged as a body for wider diplomacy. Religious leaders who attended now included the bishop of San Agustín, Moravian missionaries, and Anglican prelates from the Loyalist states. The head of the Lutheran church in Christiana may have also been involved.

By 1820 the Grand Council was one of the key institutions of the confederation. While the Congress represented the state governments, and the Parliament would eventually represent the people, the Grand Council represented the permanence of the alliance itself. It was assuming a role as the guardian of the confederal constitution. Congress was kept busy with the day-to-day work of managing confederal affairs, but the Grand Council dealt with the major questions of how to interpret treaties, resolve borders, and share power. In 1865 it took on the responsibility for foreign affairs when it negotiated a treaty with England.

This was a lot of power to be taking on, so there were calls to regularize the Council's membership. A motley gathering of leaders was fine when the members were tribal societies and paternalistic colonies, but now they were states. They needed clearer rules about who was to govern. In 1836, at the urging of republican states, the Council removed all members who participated as holders of hereditary titles, forming them into the powerless Chiefly Council. An increasing work load meant that other ex officio members were also dropped. Heads of state governments ceased to be Council members in the 1840s, since they no longer had the time. To replace them, the Council delegated to Congress the power to choose elder statesmen from the various states to sit on the Council full time.

For a long time though, the clergy stayed around. The republics largely had disestablished whatever state churches they had had, but they did not find the clergy to be as inherently offensive as the hereditary chiefs. Even the reforms of the 1870s, in which Parliament took from Congress the power to name Council members, did not touch them. The real problem came to be not necessarily the separation of church and state, but the growing size and diversity of the population. Bishops and church leaders multiplied, but the Grand Council was reluctant to just admit multitudes of clergy to its ranks. It was starting to look very anachronistic to have just a few religious leaders who just happened to hold seats that were historically important. On the other hand, it was considered worthwhile to have a national forum to foster religious pluralism and dialogue. Therefore, a new religious council was created in 1882 for this purpose, and the remaining religious left the Grand Council. Subsequent reforms removed the last remaining ex officio members, leaving only the Parliament-appointed members.

The new council was modeled on the Chiefly Council: a body that was not part of government but was nonetheless near it, at the heart of the ASB. Unlike the CC, it does receive modest tax support to fund its activities, things like travel and publishing. Its role is often described as "established pluralism": harmony among the different religions is as much part of the ASB's mission as is harmony among the states. Its members include leaders from across the ASB's religious spectrum, including the non-Christian religions that have grown with modern immigration. Revivalist indigenous faiths have won a place as well.

Anticlericalism has been a force at various times and places in the ASB, so there have been calls to defund or abolish this tax supported religious body. It hasn't happened yet, but funding has dropped quite low under some administrations. Also, the existence of the council has encouraged the existance of organized humanist or freethinker societies, which have representation.

(edit)

There are some wrinkles in this scheme. Difficult questions include: How to give a voice to unorganized expressions of Boreoamerican religion? These include both indigenous faiths and African diaspora faiths like Vodou and Santería. How to distinguish these authentic expressions from kooky new cults and nonserious religions - your Jedi, your Satanists, your Universal Life Churches - which are no doubt always clamoring for inclusion? One thing that the members don't want is to be constantly bogged down in debates over who gets a seat at the table. That's not why they're there and it's not what they signed up for. The most sensible thing would be to have a committee on membership and have everyone else agree to keep membership debates to a minimum outside that committee.

This also leads to much broader questions about those unorganized and less-organized religions. The Indians in TTL converted to Christianity in large numbers to the point where conversion was considered the norm. But unlike in Spanish America, this conversion was never forced, and Indians who were skeptical of Christianity or loyal to the old traditions did not face the same pressure to disguise their practices. So conversion was widespread, and certainly there has been that thing where indigenous customs persist in a Christian guise, but it was not 100%. Native religion survived in pockets throughout the Indian states. The more recent change, since 1900 or so, has been a series of attempts to organize these disparate groups in some way to give them more visibility and coherence. I can't say yet exactly what that looks like.

The African diaspora religions are a still different story, because, originating in a context of slavery, they were actively suppressed throughout history. Many people, including many practitioners, consider them to be nothing more than witchcraft or deviant Catholicism. Like in OTL, it is only recently that there has been an awareness of them as distinct religious traditions. Compared to OTL. I imagine that they are more widespread in continental North America, including in some parts of the Anglophone states like the Bahamas and southeastern Carolina.
 
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" the existence of the council has encouraged the existence of organized humanist or freethinker societies, which have representation."

That's interesting do you have any information about this?
 
" the existence of the council has encouraged the existence of organized humanist or freethinker societies, which have representation."

That's interesting do you have any information about this?

I'm trying to channel the later 19th century of OTL, where the Freethinker movement was going strong. It came with immigrants from the European continent, Germans, Czechs and so forth. Then it sort of fizzled, with some of the surviving congregations getting absorbed into the Unitarian Universalists. In TTL I imagine it remaining stronger, if nothing else because of this pressure from the top; prominent secularists would strive to maintain their organization to remain part of the national conversation on religion.

So in OTL the main group that does this is the UUs. In TTL I'm inclined to think that the Unitarians and Universalists kept their identity as radical or liberal churches within the Christian tradition, rather than shift toward a more secularist outlook. That niche would be filled by established Freethinker groups, and maybe some newer groups similar to the Ethical/Ethical Humanist movement. Quakers also are quite prominent, due to their historic role in Pennsylvania and its neighbors, and they also tend to be rather secular, with some identifying themselves as Christians and others not.

I'm basically thinking that in a culture where a lively religious pluralism is closely connected with civic life, the nonreligious will have more of a tendency to participate in liberal and secularist quasi-religious organizations than in OTL, where the norm is simply non-participation. Not that all or even most non-religious participate in groups like this, but just that it is more common. Near the center of bigger towns it's just more normal to have the Catholic church, one or two Protestant churches, the Quaker meetinghouse, and and some kind of Freethinker house.

Edit: I'll add that this is much more the case in states with a strong tradition of religious pluralism, which is to say the states with an English or mixed heritage rather than French or Spanish. In the states where the Catholic Church has been dominant, the nonreligious are more likely to be "cultural Catholics" or anticlericalists who hate the whole idea of churches and don't feel inclined to imitate them.
 
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I have a question, does anyone have a world map at this point (especially of Europe)
I’d hazard a guess at no on a global map, we know very little about the world outside of North America, West Africa, and Europe. I do believe I’ve seen some Europe map at one point, but I don’t know where it was!
 
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