Affiliated States of Boreoamerica thread

It'd be interesting to see what native discrimination against whites in the naive states was/is like, so unlike OTL.

It's complicated. The ASB is still a colonized culture, and a racial hierarchy that values European blood is very much in place, unfortunate as that may be. Many of the elite within the Indian states, over the years, have in fact been part White. This was true in real life: Alexander Hoboi-hili-miko McGillivray, a prominent Muskogee chief, was at least three-quarters white. John Ross of the Cherokee was as well. In TTL, McGillivray is considered the founder of Muscoguia's modern institutions. (I don't think Ross exists in TTL.) Such mixed-race tribal members always had an advantage within their societies. They had access to resources, relationships, and skills (such as literacy) deriving from their White backgrounds that helped them achieve positions of power and leadership.

In the Mixed states, traditionally I'm sure there has been a desire akin to the Latin American concept of "mejorar la raza" - when looking for a spouse, you prefer someone with lighter skin than you so that your kids can keep on whitening. (Obviously this is hard to implement perfectly, because if you're "bettering the race" by marrying someone lighter, then your partner is by definition "settling" for someone darker...) I've looked to Latin America a lot for models of a society where a racial hierarchy still exists, but racial mixing does not have the taboo that it has had in North America. The perseverance of indigenous tribal polities makes this an imperfect model, of course. OTL Latin America has no equivalent of the states of Iroquoia, Muscoguia, and the rest, so I don't want to follow it too closely. But it would be wrong to assume that just because they exist, they are not affected by colonial racism. They definitely are.

Now that's not to say that there's never been any kind of discrimination against outsiders in these states. Maybe Cherokee society was always welcoming of White and part-White people, but you had to be the *right* kind of White person. Especially after the late 18th century, even well-meaning Virginians probably had a hard time of it if they wanted to move into Cherokee territory.. but that was because Virginians repeatedly tried to seize Cherokee land rather than because of their ancestry as such.

It's a really interesting question, and I'm sure my musings right now don't capture the whole of it. I'm sure racial dynamics have varied a lot by time and place. 20th- and 21st-century movements to reclaim an indigenous identity have definitely led to people being more proud of their Indian ancestry, but I don't know if that would lead to any outright discrimination against lighter-skinned people, given the huge number of people by now who must have mixed backgrounds.
 
So any more regional demographics tidbits I should be aware of (like say, in Ohio)

For Ohio, if you triangulate between the provincial map and the stereotype maps (both here), you can get a good idea of who's where.
  • The Ranges, Losanti, and General Clark Province are largely Virginian, with Losanti also having a large Cherokee population.
  • Vincennes is a mix of Illinois and Louisiannais.
  • Scioto is largely Canadien.
  • Youngstown is quite Yankee.
  • Mühlenberg is Pennamite. The settlements immediately across the river in Allegheny are, too.
  • Silvana is Pennamite, Shawnee, and Wyandot (and Wyandot is the same as Huron-Petun).
  • Chalacatha has lots of Christianer Swedo-Lenape, but probably not covering the whole province. Parts of it are Shawnee.
  • East Muskingum also has a lot of Christianer and Pennamites.
  • Wea is its own ethnic group, but it can maybe be considered the same as the Illinois, or at least very closely related.
  • Miami, Upper Wabash, and Ankwasakwa are a mix of different indigenous groups and I'm not sure how best to divide them up.
Other tidbits...

For Canada, some reference to the Seven Nations of Canada would be good. It doesn't have to exactly copy the OTL map, but some Indian settlement definitely occurred along the Saint Lawrence and the effects of this can still be seen today. By now, some of the Indian settlements are considered mainly Métis. Those that have kept a distinct Indian identity are likely still surrounded by a blob of Métis territory.

St. John's Island can be largely Yankee, with Franco-Acadians predominant at the eastern end. The far western end has an Irish population.

Upper Virginia is pretty homogenous, as that area is in OTL. Some Iroquois in the far northeast, maybe a few Franco-Illinois and Chickasaw in the far west, and one or two pockets of Cherokee, a few Afro-English pockets especially near the confluence of the Ohio and the Mississippi.

Chicasaw has some areas of Virginian settlement. I imagine them looking like lines or furrows that follow roads along which early settlers traveled. Chicasaw's main port city is a few miles north of OTL Memphis, at the site of our Randolph, Tennessee. It has a diverse population like some of the other major cities on your map.

Illinois has a strong sense of its own ethnic identity, but if you are coloring all Francophone Métis groups the same color, than that will be appropriate for the bulk of the state. The far north can be colored to match the groups on the other side of the border. Peoria is a diverse major city. The west/northwest has a lot of Sauk-Fox people. The south-central part has lots of Virginians, especially in the three counties with English names.

In Newfoundland, the western shore can be shown as partly or mostly Canadien.

The East Florida language map will be a good guide, though it may be more correct to classify most of the native Floridian groups (Guale, Timucua, Apalachi, and Tocobaga) as part of a Mestizo "Floridiano" ethnic group, with only the English- and Muscogui-speaking areas colored differently. The English area in the northeast should be colored as Afro-English and/or Gullah. The English area in the northwest is Lowland Carolian. The Muscogui areas are ethnically Seminol.

And yes, Seminol and Muscogui are two ethnic groups but they are closely related. Using one color for both groups would not be inappropriate, especially if you're wanting to keep the total number of colors down. Two similar colors would also be fine, it can be your decision.

Turks and Caicos, and most of the Bahamas, can safely be colored Anglo-Caribbean. Grand Bahama Island is mostly or all Seminol. Andros Island can be split down the middle, the west being Seminol and the east Anglo-Caribbean.

Generally speaking, the eastern part of West Florida is Lowland Carolian, the western part is Louisiannais, and the middle near Pensacola is Floridiano. But there's lots of overlap among the three groups. Along the northern border are some Muscogui and Choctaw.

Carolina has some Irish pockets in the western part alongside the Piedmonters. They're not huge, but there are a few. And a few swaths should be Catawba. I like what you did with the "black belt" in southern Virginia, the Catawba zone probably has a similar general appearance.
 
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So any more regional demographics tidbits I should be aware of (like say, in Ohio)

Let me add a couple other things.

Dakota is probably the most unexplored state on here, but there's a little on its demographics. The dominant group is Francophone Métis, who live in the regions near the big cities. There are a few areas of Scandinavian settlement, near the small patches of Swedish speakers in the adjacent part of the Upper Country. Lots of Mexican settlement in the south of the state. And most of all, lots of various indigenous groups. In TTL, population pressures in the Great Plains pushed tribes in a northerly direction because of an aggressive homesteading policy by Mexico. So many groups from OTL Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, and nearby areas migrated out of Mexican territory and into what became the state of Dakota.

Assiniboia is obviously mostly Métis, but there are pockets of English within the original boundaries of the Red River colony. The map of OTL forts and settlements is a good starting point for identifying likely English zones. The capital itself (Fort Douglas on the old map) is majority Francophone today.

Iroquoia is pretty uniformly Iroquois in the old core of the state around the Finger Lakes. The Tuscarora could be colored differently. They have intermarried with the other Iroquois but are still distinct from them. The two western nations of Erie and Niagara are different. In the 17 and 1800s I imagine them as having a crazy-quilt population from all over the place. Lots of Dutch, lots of people from Iroquois dependent tribes, some Algonquian groups, some French, some English, some Germans. I don't know the best way to color that. Probably not all groups will make it onto the map because they're minority groups, but there are also some cities in there without a clear majority.

West Acadia and Allegheny have the same problem. For both, the Mid-Atlantic map shows place-names that at least give a clue into who founded the settlements there, but of course founding a settlement and continuing to define its culture are not the same thing. West Acadia also has significant areas that are largely Mi'kmaq, and some other indigenous groups that extend into New Hampshire like the Wabenaki. The largest groups in Allegheny are Iroquois and Pennamite, with some other groups similar to the mix in western Iroquoia.
 
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With this patchwork of different cultures and languages around, I'm trying to imagine the rise of automobile travel in the 20th century. Without a federal superhighway system, people would still be stopping by many little towns along the way, so people planning a long trip would require a guide listing what languages would be used in each town. Otherwise, you'd have situations such as where you're in the only motel in town and you don't share a language with the staff. They'd probably be published by whatever the equivalent of AAA is (BAA in English, ABA in French, AAB in Spanish) There would probably be editions for English and French speakers, plus less-published ones for Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, German, and a couple of the larger native languages. By the 21st century, the advent of the internet and increased connectivity with even remote areas would make these books obsolete.

Kind of like OTL's Green Book that black people used, except instead of telling people where it's safe to go, here it's just a matter of convenience.
 
With this patchwork of different cultures and languages around, I'm trying to imagine the rise of automobile travel in the 20th century. Without a federal superhighway system, people would still be stopping by many little towns along the way, so people planning a long trip would require a guide listing what languages would be used in each town. Otherwise, you'd have situations such as where you're in the only motel in town and you don't share a language with the staff. They'd probably be published by whatever the equivalent of AAA is (BAA in English, ABA in French, AAB in Spanish) There would probably be editions for English and French speakers, plus less-published ones for Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, German, and a couple of the larger native languages. By the 21st century, the advent of the internet and increased connectivity with even remote areas would make these books obsolete.

Kind of like OTL's Green Book that black people used, except instead of telling people where it's safe to go, here it's just a matter of convenience.

That's not to discount relatively widespread multilingualism. Most educated people in the ASB can speak and read two of the main languages. The linguistic situation can probably be compared to Central and Eastern Europe, especially before some of the ethnic cleansings of the 20th century. You grow up exposed to several languages both in school and in your community. This is truer in some places than others. The central parts of New England, the Virginias, and Canada are notorious hives of monolinguals. Most of the island states, too. These people would definitely need travel handbooks to help them find services, along with that old staple for travelers, the phrasebook. "I will not buy this record, it is scratched."

This makes me want to create a Boreoamerican equivalent of L.L. Zamenhof... what would an American Esperanto look like?

You're right, I wonder if this world would see anything like American car and road-trip culture. Something about it smacks of an echo of the pioneer ethos to me. A generation after the "End of the Frontier" in 1890, restless Americans were starting to use their cars to capture some of that same adventure. I haven't read specifically about that, so I may be wrong, but that's how it seems to me. If I'm at all right, that whole culture is certainly going to be very different in a world where that ethos didn't exist or was channeled in other directions.

In a lot of ways, traveling between the states must have felt a lot like international travel until quite recently. I know that road-building is a state responsibility and most highways are managed by states or consortiums of states. Only a few special highway projects are managed at the confedederal level. No doubt it was a common thing to be going down a decent highway only to get completely stuck in mud when you cross into a state with a smaller transportation budget. Railroads, usually built as they are by private companies that cross state lines, probably needed more confederal supervision.
 
This is a first draft of the dynastic politics that led to the PIC in the seventeenth century.

family tree.png


The essential POD is that Dmitri was a savvier and/or better advised imposter than the hapless young man of our timeline. He was able to ally himself with key boyars, including marrying the daughter of a potential rival, in order to secure support within the Russian state. He continued to cultivate relationships with those in Poland who had supported his accession, without appearing to favor Polish interests over those of his own people. He lived a long time.

Dmitri's greatest diplomatic coup, however, was marrying his eldest son Vasily to the reigning Queen Kristina of Sweden. Kristina was notably eccentric, and speculation runs rampant about her psychological condition, sexuality, and gender identity. What convinced her to marry after having refused so many other suitors? Every historian, poet and librettist to tackle the question has come up with a different answer. Some simply describe Vasily as a charming man who appealed to Kristina's sense of curiosity. Others portray it as a kind of rebellion, marrying this Eastern Orthodox prince from savage Muscovy. Still others say Kristina was persuaded by the realpolitik of it: that marrying someone with connections in both Russia and Poland would help her dynasty gain the upper hand over the rival Polish branch of the Vasa family. Certainly one of the first things that the couple did together was attack Poland, ultimately forcing Vasily's election as king. Just as much rumor surrounds the pair's two sons, Ivan/Johan and Fyodor. Many people at the time were convinced that they never had any children together. In this version, the old Tsar Dmitri, that sneaky snake, faked both pregnancies, both times convincing Kristina to seclude herself in castles for a few months and then emerge with one of Vasily's sons by one of his various mistresses. Historians are not totally in agreement, but the amount of time that Vasily and Kristina were apart governing their separate realms does continue to leave researchers raising their eyebrows and scratching their heads.

The eldest son Ivan succeeded to his parents' realms piecemeal. Vasily arranged for the Sejm to elect him king of Poland when he was still very young. Almost immediately thereafter Kristina abdicated her throne to him. He ruled both countries until his father's death in 1679, when he was crowned Tsar, uniting the three crowns for the first time. Ivan was a warlike ruler, attacking Turkey and expanding his borders to the east. He also took steps to make the unification more permanent. He established the first joint institutions in the Baltic and used the Swedish navy to seize control of the Duchy of Courland's small Atlantic colonies. He expanded the city of Nyen, laying the foundations for the great imperial capital at the head of the Baltic. (... I've referred, sort of ridiculously, to "St. Petersburg" in previous posts. With no Peter the Great, obviously the city is not going to be called that. Nyen is the older Swedish name for it, and it works just fine.) Domestically, Ivan, or Jan, was most concerned with shoring up his support among the Polish nobles. He married a daughter of the powerful Sapieha family. When Ivan died after more than twenty successful years, he was able to pass all three crowns to their son Kasimir.

Kasimir brought the Enlightenment to Poland and Russia, though he did not live long enough to see many of his projects come to fruition. Sweden's alliance with France now went back almost a century, and Kasimir strengthened it by bringing French culture into his court, making French the international language of an increasingly cosmopolitan capital. He purchased the Caribbean island of St. Barts from France. Kasimir died childless and spent his last years gathering support among his nobles for his first cousin, Karl II, Count-Palatine of Pfalz-Zweibrücken. That house had past connections to the Swedish royal family, and Karl was the son of Fyodor, Tsar Vasily's second son by Kristina or a mistress, depending on the story you believe.

Karl ascended the thrones of Sweden and Poland without much fuss, but the Russian boyars were more reluctant to accept this Protestant Westerner. He secured his throne after two years of violent unrest. He is considered the founder of the "Wittelsbach-Rurik" royal house, which has ruled the empire ever since. During Karl's rule Sweden again started to pay attention to its former colony in North America, modern Christiana. After negotiating with the Penn family, Karl formed a small land company that bought and sold plots of land in the colony to settlers from Sweden, Finland, and the allied German state of Holstein-Gottorp.

Some of this may need to be cleaned up. In particular I may need to flip the genders of Fyodor and Sophie. But now we've got a general sense of how everyone's favorite northeastern superpower came together.
 
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Some further thoughts on the rulers of this era:

The tsars Dmitri and Vasily forged the union through military victories and skullduggery, but as the first person to securely rule all three countries, Ivan V and III is acknowledged as the founder of the empire. He was not a revolutionary Peter the Great figure. He could not afford to be: he had to appear acceptable to the ruling classes of all three of his realms, and that meant respecting traditions. Ivan's real innovation was beginning to create an imperial bureaucracy that could give the nobles opportunities for advancement in the service of the monarch. This is how his co-opting of the Courland colonies must be seen: the tiny colonies were not profitable at any point in their existence, but they were useful as a source of patronage. Even more useful were his conquests in the Ukraine and Transylvania, his first steps to organize the administration of Siberia, and his strengthening of the Baltic fleet. This "imperialization" of the nobility, fully developed in the 18th century, would be the source of the empire's strength and cohesion. It distracted the powerful boyars and the szlachta as their traditional privileges were abolished one by one over the course of the century.

Kasimir I and V was more of a cultural rebel, but this meant bringing the Englightenment into his courts rather than trying to force it onto the rest of the country. He followed Western fashions but did not expect anyone else to. He sponsored some impressive Baroque buildings in Nyen, but he did not set out with a grand vision of a Western capital. The city instead grew gradually and its buildings come from many different traditions and eras.

Karl I and X is credited with introducing absolutism to the empire, though only in Sweden. Absolutism took much longer to bring about in Russia and never really happened in Poland. The Swedish military became a well-oiled machine under the king's personal command. Some of those military reforms started to gradually extend to Poland and Russia, but Karl was not able to control the governments there like he did in Sweden. In military affairs Karl had to fight off a combined attack from Brandenburg and Austria, a recurring event of the 18th century and beyond. He sponsored the first colonization attempts in the Pacific. Karl had married a daughter of a Hessian landgrave before he came to the throne, but he married most of his many children off to Polish and Russian magnates.
 
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This is a first draft of the dynastic politics that led to the PIC in the seventeenth century.

View attachment 414404

The eldest son Ivan succeeded to his parents' realms piecemeal. Basil arranged for the Sejm to elect him king of Poland when he was still very young. Almost immediately thereafter Kristina abdicated her throne to him. He ruled both countries until his father's death in 1679, when he was crowned Tsar, uniting the three crowns for the first time. Ivan was a warlike ruler, attacking Turkey and expanding his borders to the east. He also took steps to make the unification more permanent. He established the first joint institutions in the Baltic and used the Swedish navy to seize control of the Duchy of Courland's small Atlantic colonies. He expanded the city of Nyen, laying the foundations for the great imperial capital at the head of the Baltic. (... I've referred, sort of ridiculously, to "St. Petersburg" in previous posts. With no Peter the Great, obviously the city is not going to be called that. Nyen is the older Swedish name for it, and it works just fine.) Domestically, Ivan, or Jan, was most concerned with shoring up his support among the Polish nobles. He married a daughter of the powerful Sapieha family. When Ivan died after more than twenty successful years, he was able to pass all three crowns to their son Kasimir.

St. Petersburg was named after Saint Peter the Apostle, via the original Peter and Paul Citadel along the Neva river. Peter the Great was, obviously never considered a Saint, so he is not officially the city's namesake, though he probably felt drawn to St. Peter at least partly due to the shared name. Another name you might consider is "Pavelgrad," after St. Paul. A third might be Derzhevnaya, a word meaning "Sovereign" which refers to the Virgin Mary in Russian iconography. A name based on that would have multiple layers of meaning, but I'm not well-versed enough in Russian to make a grammatically correct placename.

That's not to discount relatively widespread multilingualism. Most educated people in the ASB can speak and read two of the main languages. The linguistic situation can probably be compared to Central and Eastern Europe, especially before some of the ethnic cleansings of the 20th century. You grow up exposed to several languages both in school and in your community. This is truer in some places than others. The central parts of New England, the Virginias, and Canada are notorious hives of monolinguals. Most of the island states, too. These people would definitely need travel handbooks to help them find services, along with that old staple for travelers, the phrasebook. "I will not buy this record, it is scratched."

This makes me want to create a Boreoamerican equivalent of L.L. Zamenhof... what would an American Esperanto look like?

You're right, I wonder if this world would see anything like American car and road-trip culture. Something about it smacks of an echo of the pioneer ethos to me. A generation after the "End of the Frontier" in 1890, restless Americans were starting to use their cars to capture some of that same adventure. I haven't read specifically about that, so I may be wrong, but that's how it seems to me. If I'm at all right, that whole culture is certainly going to be very different in a world where that ethos didn't exist or was channeled in other directions.

In a lot of ways, traveling between the states must have felt a lot like international travel until quite recently. I know that road-building is a state responsibility and most highways are managed by states or consortiums of states. Only a few special highway projects are managed at the confedederal level. No doubt it was a common thing to be going down a decent highway only to get completely stuck in mud when you cross into a state with a smaller transportation budget. Railroads, usually built as they are by private companies that cross state lines, probably needed more confederal supervision.

It's an interesting hypothesis, and I've not considered that possibility, though I think the causes were more varied than that.

Wikipedia links the Grand Tour to road trip culture, although I'm a bit skeptical of that. The Grand Tour was for the wealthy youths to travel to the most cultured cities and get smashed in them while ostensibly getting educated, while American road trip culture was more about the freedom to go anywhere you wanted, whether small towns or large ones, and getting smashed in them while ostensibly finding yourself spiritually.

From 1900 to 1930, oil companies developed increasingly complex and increasingly efficient methods of delivering fuel to increasingly numerous cars, which brings up a major difficulty in creating auto culture in the ASB: The territory covered by the ASB IOTL had already depleted its oil supplies by 1910. The oil fields in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois peaked between 1900 and 1908, and the oil fields in Oklahoma and Texas belong to Mexico ITTL. It would not be until the 1940s when offshore drilling became profitable, meaning there may simply not be enough oil to support automobiles for the majority of households as there were IOTL by 1930. The ASB would instead have to pay for Mexican oil. Or, maybe, Oil companies in the ASB would partner with the Mexican government to extract oil from OTL Oklahoma in exchange for tariff-free exports to the ASB. It would work for a little while, until the Mexican government decides they deserve a bigger slice of the pie, at least. Here's an idea: Bormex, short for Boreoamerican-Mexican Oil Company, being one of the major oil producers in the modern day.

In the 1910s, with more cars becoming available, long-distance trails, marked and maintained by auto organizations, came into being. These would form the backbone of what would become the US highway system in 1926. The most famous highway, Route 66 ran from Chicago to Los Angeles; in 1932, the Los Angeles Summer Olympics happened, attracting tourists, and the increasing agriculture in California attracted migrants from the Dust Bowl states. Route 66 became a major road. As Los Angeles grew more and more in tandem with the highway, the famous highway became more than a road, but an icon.

Once the cars and the oil were available to the average consumer, the enforced conformity of the early 1950s became a breeding ground for youth resentment. I think this conformity mostly stemmed from the US's involvement in WWII, as it saw the entire country pulling together in the face of a common enemy, typically silencing dissenting voices in the process. In addition, the parents of the disaffected youths were typically GIs who were taught conformity as part of military culture.

In this environment, Jack Kerouac (Who was a French-speaking Massachusetts man of Breton extraction via Canada- would be very at home in the ASB) wrote On the Road, a mostly autobiographical novel based on his own journeys across the United States during the late 1940s that featured lots of sex, drugs, and spirituality. When it was published in 1957, it resonated with a lot of young people who felt constrained in this conformist society. In 1962, John Steinbeck wrote his own road trip travelogue, Travels with Charley, in which he wrote about America and the varied people within. These two books cemented the road trip as the quintessential American journey, where one could exercise their personal freedom, discover themselves, and discover their country.

With the cosmopolitan nature of the ASB, I think that last point would probably resonate most strongly with its citizens. I'm imagining a counterculture movement of the 1960s- not a single movement but a loose collection of movements, where disaffected youths from one part of the ASB choose to move to other parts of the ASB because they feel it's closer to their ideal. This leads to weird random artist colonies in mid-sized cities where you don't expect them.
 
... He expanded the city of Nyen, laying the foundations for the great imperial capital at the head of the Baltic. (... I've referred, sort of ridiculously, to "St. Petersburg" in previous posts. With no Peter the Great, obviously the city is not going to be called that. Nyen is the older Swedish name for it, and it works just fine.)...

St. Petersburg was named after Saint Peter the Apostle, via the original Peter and Paul Citadel along the Neva river. Peter the Great was, obviously never considered a Saint, so he is not officially the city's namesake, though he probably felt drawn to St. Peter at least partly due to the shared name. Another name you might consider is "Pavelgrad," after St. Paul. A third might be Derzhevnaya, a word meaning "Sovereign" which refers to the Virgin Mary in Russian iconography. A name based on that would have multiple layers of meaning, but I'm not well-versed enough in Russian to make a grammatically correct placename...

Another option if you're launching into russophone renaming sprees is Vladizapad. OTL's Vladivostok and Vladikavkaz can be roughly translated into English as "Overlord of the East" and "Overlord of the South", the exact meaning of Vladi- in placenames is clunky to translate well into English, my Russian-speaking friends tell me. But the -vostok and -kavkaz parts just mean East and South. Zapad means West, so both the geography within Russia and the OTL precedent make it at least feasible for a powerful city at the mouth of the Neva.

I'd also worry about keeping Nyen as a name, given that Russian doesn't have the sound that 'y' represents in Swedish. It seems this turns into 'i' in Russian, which could end up with the city name sounding too similar to 'nyet' (нет) which means 'no' in Russian. 'Nye-' stuck on the front of words works like 'un-' in English too. That feels inauspicious for a shiny new capital, IMHO.
 
Another option if you're launching into russophone renaming sprees is Vladizapad. OTL's Vladivostok and Vladikavkaz can be roughly translated into English as "Overlord of the East" and "Overlord of the South", the exact meaning of Vladi- in placenames is clunky to translate well into English, my Russian-speaking friends tell me. But the -vostok and -kavkaz parts just mean East and South. Zapad means West, so both the geography within Russia and the OTL precedent make it at least feasible for a powerful city at the mouth of the Neva.

I'd also worry about keeping Nyen as a name, given that Russian doesn't have the sound that 'y' represents in Swedish. It seems this turns into 'i' in Russian, which could end up with the city name sounding too similar to 'nyet' (нет) which means 'no' in Russian. 'Nye-' stuck on the front of words works like 'un-' in English too. That feels inauspicious for a shiny new capital, IMHO.

They'd probably translate it to "novo-" and have the name be "novoyensk" or similar in that case
 
Dmitri must be "Dmitri II" and Basil must be "Basil IV"

Oof, that's embarrassing. It's fixed.

St. Petersburg was named after Saint Peter the Apostle, via the original Peter and Paul Citadel along the Neva river. Peter the Great was, obviously never considered a Saint, so he is not officially the city's namesake, though he probably felt drawn to St. Peter at least partly due to the shared name. Another name you might consider is "Pavelgrad," after St. Paul. A third might be Derzhevnaya, a word meaning "Sovereign" which refers to the Virgin Mary in Russian iconography. A name based on that would have multiple layers of meaning, but I'm not well-versed enough in Russian to make a grammatically correct placename.

Right, but when an autocrat names his new capital after a saint that happens to share his name... everyone knows that's a coy way of naming it after himself... right? Is that so far off?

The bigger issue with the name in TTL is - in the 17th century, at least - there's no particular reason for it to change. In OTL Peter renamed it after conquering the land from Sweden. In TTL, the tsar is not going to conquer the land from himself. And seizing a Swedish colony to give it a Russian name would risk causing offense without any justification. Now later, when the empire had become an institution and was not such a delicate balancing act, rechristening the city could be a very effective gesture, especially if it followed a military victory of some kind. And even then, I'd expect a name that could be translated easily between the three main languages. Whatever St. Petersburg is called, it is a very cosmopolitan city.

Another option if you're launching into russophone renaming sprees is Vladizapad. OTL's Vladivostok and Vladikavkaz can be roughly translated into English as "Overlord of the East" and "Overlord of the South", the exact meaning of Vladi- in placenames is clunky to translate well into English, my Russian-speaking friends tell me. But the -vostok and -kavkaz parts just mean East and South. Zapad means West, so both the geography within Russia and the OTL precedent make it at least feasible for a powerful city at the mouth of the Neva.

I'd also worry about keeping Nyen as a name, given that Russian doesn't have the sound that 'y' represents in Swedish. It seems this turns into 'i' in Russian, which could end up with the city name sounding too similar to 'nyet' (нет) which means 'no' in Russian. 'Nye-' stuck on the front of words works like 'un-' in English too. That feels inauspicious for a shiny new capital, IMHO.

It's also a very cool name, but in this context may not be best because of some of the factors in my reply to Tsochar above - this empire is an unashamed Rusowank, definitely, but definitely in the early years it was a very precarious dynastic union. A name should work in all three languages. That's a good argument for getting rid of Nyen, for the reasons you say. but that would be in the mid 18th century or later, I would think... in the meantime the existing name would most likely stay.

They'd probably translate it to "novo-" and have the name be "novoyensk" or similar in that case

That might be the most plausible of all, at least in the medium term. Longer term, I do like some of your more triumphalist ideas. Derzhevnaya is a really interesting starting point and seems translatable to the other langagues/cultures.
 
Oof, that's embarrassing. It's fixed.

That might be the most plausible of all, at least in the medium term. Longer term, I do like some of your more triumphalist ideas. Derzhevnaya is a really interesting starting point and seems translatable to the other langagues/cultures.


Actually, looking closer at the etymology, Nyen has nothing to do with the Swedish word Ny, it's a name for the Neva river. The fortress itself, Nyenskans, was known in Russian as Nienshants, which is likely transliterated from the equivalent German. In that case, it would be Nevaburg or Niengrad or something like that.
 

ninel

Banned
And seizing a Swedish colony to give it a Russian name would risk causing offense without any justification.
Sankt Petersburg is German, not Russian. I think it would easily translate to Swedish - Sankt Pedersborg or such. I guess the ATL equivalent of it could be Sankt Johannesborg if established by Johan/Ivan/Jan III/V (shouldn't he be referred in English as John III and V?).

Actually, looking closer at the etymology, Nyen has nothing to do with the Swedish word Ny, it's a name for the Neva river. The fortress itself, Nyenskans, was known in Russian as Nienshants, which is likely transliterated from the equivalent German. In that case, it would be Nevaburg or Niengrad or something like that.
Nevinsk? Works in Russian (cf. Dvinsk), in Polish (Newińsk), and of course it could be still Nyen in Swedish.

EDIT: Though I think that Nevsk would be more correct. Doesn't sound good in Polish though.
 
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Sankt Petersburg is German, not Russian. I think it would easily translate to Swedish - Sankt Pedersborg or such. I guess the ATL equivalent of it could be Sankt Johannesborg if established by Johan/Ivan/Jan III/V (shouldn't he be referred in English as John III and V?).

I was referring to the different "Vladi-" suggestions, not the OTL name.

And yes, John would be the correct English equivalent.
 
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It's an interesting hypothesis, and I've not considered that possibility, though I think the causes were more varied than that.

Wikipedia links the Grand Tour to road trip culture, although I'm a bit skeptical of that. The Grand Tour was for the wealthy youths to travel to the most cultured cities and get smashed in them while ostensibly getting educated, while American road trip culture was more about the freedom to go anywhere you wanted, whether small towns or large ones, and getting smashed in them while ostensibly finding yourself spiritually.

From 1900 to 1930, oil companies developed increasingly complex and increasingly efficient methods of delivering fuel to increasingly numerous cars, which brings up a major difficulty in creating auto culture in the ASB: The territory covered by the ASB IOTL had already depleted its oil supplies by 1910. The oil fields in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois peaked between 1900 and 1908, and the oil fields in Oklahoma and Texas belong to Mexico ITTL. It would not be until the 1940s when offshore drilling became profitable, meaning there may simply not be enough oil to support automobiles for the majority of households as there were IOTL by 1930. The ASB would instead have to pay for Mexican oil. Or, maybe, Oil companies in the ASB would partner with the Mexican government to extract oil from OTL Oklahoma in exchange for tariff-free exports to the ASB. It would work for a little while, until the Mexican government decides they deserve a bigger slice of the pie, at least. Here's an idea: Bormex, short for Boreoamerican-Mexican Oil Company, being one of the major oil producers in the modern day.

In the 1910s, with more cars becoming available, long-distance trails, marked and maintained by auto organizations, came into being. These would form the backbone of what would become the US highway system in 1926. The most famous highway, Route 66 ran from Chicago to Los Angeles; in 1932, the Los Angeles Summer Olympics happened, attracting tourists, and the increasing agriculture in California attracted migrants from the Dust Bowl states. Route 66 became a major road. As Los Angeles grew more and more in tandem with the highway, the famous highway became more than a road, but an icon.

Once the cars and the oil were available to the average consumer, the enforced conformity of the early 1950s became a breeding ground for youth resentment. I think this conformity mostly stemmed from the US's involvement in WWII, as it saw the entire country pulling together in the face of a common enemy, typically silencing dissenting voices in the process. In addition, the parents of the disaffected youths were typically GIs who were taught conformity as part of military culture.

In this environment, Jack Kerouac (Who was a French-speaking Massachusetts man of Breton extraction via Canada- would be very at home in the ASB) wrote On the Road, a mostly autobiographical novel based on his own journeys across the United States during the late 1940s that featured lots of sex, drugs, and spirituality. When it was published in 1957, it resonated with a lot of young people who felt constrained in this conformist society. In 1962, John Steinbeck wrote his own road trip travelogue, Travels with Charley, in which he wrote about America and the varied people within. These two books cemented the road trip as the quintessential American journey, where one could exercise their personal freedom, discover themselves, and discover their country.

With the cosmopolitan nature of the ASB, I think that last point would probably resonate most strongly with its citizens. I'm imagining a counterculture movement of the 1960s- not a single movement but a loose collection of movements, where disaffected youths from one part of the ASB choose to move to other parts of the ASB because they feel it's closer to their ideal. This leads to weird random artist colonies in mid-sized cities where you don't expect them.

I should respond to this too... when you first brought up road tripping, I had been thinking of camping, family vacations, roadside attractions, outdoorsy kitsch... a rather different side of American road culture from Kerouac and Steinbeck. Kind of fascinating that the culture is broad enough to include it all. I think you're right - the ASB has lots of room for road culture to develop, and there's already been some attention to the confederation's highways. It's also worth thinking about how those impulses would interact with indigenous ideas that are much more a part of the general culture than in OTL.
 

ninel

Banned
Nevinsk? Works in Russian (cf. Dvinsk), in Polish (Newińsk), and of course it could be still Nyen in Swedish.

EDIT: Though I think that Nevsk would be more correct. Doesn't sound good in Polish though.
After thinking about this, probably the best adaptation of Nyen to Russian and Polish would be Nevin/Newin.
 
I should respond to this too... when you first brought up road tripping, I had been thinking of camping, family vacations, roadside attractions, outdoorsy kitsch... a rather different side of American road culture from Kerouac and Steinbeck. Kind of fascinating that the culture is broad enough to include it all. I think you're right - the ASB has lots of room for road culture to develop, and there's already been some attention to the confederation's highways. It's also worth thinking about how those impulses would interact with indigenous ideas that are much more a part of the general culture than in OTL.

The kitsch culture, I think, would be even more prevalent in the ASB: When the interstate highway system was built in OTL, many of the small-town roadside attractions fell by the wayside as tourists no longer had a reason to stop in every small town. The ASB has no interstate highway system, so all that tourist-trapping goodness stays strong.

On the other hand, the camping culture might be lessened a little bit. Most of the US's natural wonders and national parks are located out west, and the parts east of the Mississippi IOTL are heavily developed either for residence or farming, with the most major exception being Appalachia and the associated foothills. In OTL, the most-visited national parks in ASB territory (obviously not counting those outside the US) are:

Great Smoky Mountains, North Carolina and Tennessee/ Watauga and Cherokee
Acadia National Park, Maine
Cuyahoga Valley National Park, Ohio/Upper Connecticut
Shenandoah National Park, Virginia/Lower Virginia
Everglades National Park, Florida/Seminole

And some state parks:
Fall Creek Falls State Park, Tennessee/Cherokee
Itasca State Park, Minnesota/Assiniboia and Dakota
Adirondack Park, New York/ New Netherland and Canada
Hocking Hills State Park, Ohio
Letchworth State Park, New York/Iroquoia

Parks in Canada:
Saguenay-St. Lawrence, Quebec/Canada
Price Edward Island National Park, Prince Edward Island
Point Pelee National Park, Ontario/Upper Country

Caribbean parks:
Alejandro de Humboldt National Park, Cuba
Los Haitises National Park, Dominican Republic/East Dominica
Pic Macaya National Park, Haiti/West Dominica
Conception Island, Bahamas
 
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