Affiliated States of Boreoamerica thread

Discussion in 'Alternate History Maps and Graphics' started by False Dmitri, Oct 5, 2011.

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  1. Neoteros Dux Mediolani

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    Since you were talking about sports in the ASB a while ago...

    I think the dominant sport not just in Italy, but in the whole of Latin Europe, might be a variant of the Jeu de paume: pallone col bracciale was the most popular sport in Italy in the 19th century, and one of the very few professional sports in the world back then, and very similar games were played in the rest of Latin America and Latin Europe, too. They tried to make a set of international rules for all, too:

     
  2. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    Nice! More content about Italy is good to see.

    OK, everyone. I've been putting a lot of thought into this recently, and I'm considering a fairly major retcon. One of the earliest facts I ever mentioned about the ASB was that its capital is at Two Forts, OTL Pittsburgh. I made this decision when the ASB was a series of sketches on paper, before I even started posting about it. At that point my focus was mostly on the Great Lakes and the Ohio and St. Lawrence valleys; I didn't yet know how big it was. Two Forts as a capital made perfect sense for a confederation that mostly united what we call the Midwest and the East Coast.

    But it has some major drawbacks. Above all, its inland location would have been burdensome for Caribbean members before railroads became widespread, and even afterward it could have been seen as a signal that they were an afterthought in the Confederation. This could have been a problem over the years, with the islands having a separatist streak that never really went away. And in general it's far from the major power centers of the Confederation, which especially in the nineteenth century were definitely on the coast.

    A while back, I identified the Central States as the region of wealth and power in the ASB, usually understood as stretching from Maryland to Massachusetts, sometimes including the urban areas of Lower Virginia and New Hampshire on either end. And falling right in the center of that region is its biggest city, New Amsterdam. @Tsochar , I think, has commented before how New Amsterdam's economic and cultural sway would seem to be surprisingly prominent in the ASB, simply because of its geography. It's the natural place for a capital to be. And unlike the United States, which intentionally planned a capital to be away from power centers, the ASB probably didn't plan anything at all. Congresses, Councils and Parliaments met wherever it was convenient, eventually settling on one place. And the more I think about it, the less likely Two Forts seems to be that place.

    New Amsterdam has other things to recommend it, as well. Two Forts' main advantage was being a neutral site. NN was not neutral, being one of the major powers of the continent... but it did often play a mediating role in conflicts among the colonies - England vs. France, Loyalists vs. Republicans. It participated in the big war of 1803 on the English side, but sort of reluctantly and without engaging in many long-distance campaigns. Its neutrality cred was not completely lacking. And aesthetically, it makes a good capital. Two Forts didn't grow into much of a city until the 1820s or 30s, and even then has little remaining from its earliest period; whereas New Amsterdam has a charming Old City inside its 18th-century stone walls, crisscrossed by narrow but picturesque canals.

    Anyway, this would be a very big retcon because of how long "Capital = Two Forts" has been a thing. On the other hand, I kind of feel like "we" haven't committed much to Two Forts over the years. What's its culture like? Its landmarks? How has it contributed culturally to the rest of the ASB? We can answer those questions much more readily about New Amsterdam because it's just a more interesting city. Two Forts would remain the state capital of Allegheny and a regional economic center. Right now I'm obviously liking the idea of making a change, but I want to talk about it first and hear people's thoughts. Another possible drawback is the general silliness of changing such a key item so late in the process.

    So here's the latest version of the big mid-Atlantic map. A few cities have been added since the last update. Main change is that it shows NA as the capital rather than 2F. You can see where both cities are in relation to other major cities.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  3. Gian Wizard of Watkins Mill

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    I actually like that, and in a way makes sense given that the unplanned, higgledy-piggledy nature of the ASB doesn't exactly leave much time and room for planned capitals like DC.

    Ironically, it doesn't really change much in my (still-planned) ASB TL.¹ One of the states in the ASB that I didn't plan on bringing was Allegheny, and that was largely because the capital was in Two Forts. That way, with much of the rest of the ASB (as well as the Commonwealth of America from the Yankee Dominion) that did got transported in the Event (see list here) scattered in the chaos, they'd be more willing to join up with the remnants of the OTL United States (DC and the surrounding area would largely survive) to form a new multicultural, multilingual "Second United States" that is the successor state to all three of them.² Basically, the move to New Amsterdam (and into a place I also plan to keep unchanged from OTL³) also puts them in the exact same situation, except now I have an excuse to bring much of Allegheny as well (well, except the parts that are in OTL West Virginia and Maryland, as well as Allegheny County (that is, the county containing Pittsburgh))

    I'll show you (and maybe @jennysnooper87, since I think she's a huge fan of my stuff) of what I have now (minus Antarctica, which was also changed in the Event), plus Allegheny and a maybe a few spots I forgot to mention:
    [​IMG]

    ¹All of that was made as I was headcanoning much of what would come to that TL.
    ²Technically, it would still be called the "United States of America" and would retain much of the "First U.S."'s symbols, including its flag, seal, and anthem.
    ³Well, almost. While the Bronx and Manhattan would still be from OTL (the Event takes place in 2012), Brooklyn and Queens (along with the rest of Long Island) would have been "ISOTed" from @Kanan's Our Fair Country, as would NJ's Essex and Hudson Counties, and Staten Island (the latter three are part of that world's USA)
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  4. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    It sounds like there's a lot of support for moving the capital. I know I have a problem with changing my past decisions - you can ask my gf about that - but in this case, I think it does improve the timeline a lot.

    Another thing I forgot to mention - Turquoise Blue's political history talks quite a bit about how New Netherland's politics have affected confederal politics; that's another way that the change fits in with established good content.

    I can start the retcon by changing the wiki pages, then tracking down the references on my personal site. A couple of those stereotype maps reference the capital and will have to be changed. I also want to make a city map of Old Manhattan. I've made a few sketches, at least one of which I posted here a long time ago. I've never made a proper city map before, but I'd like to try it... maybe on paper rather than the computer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  5. Neoteros Dux Mediolani

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    I wonder if I should do a few retcons of my own, actually - the 1454 Treaty of Lodi seems like it could be a good starting point for a (con-)federation in the peninsula, since it was signed by the most important polities of the South (Naples), the North (Florence, Milan, Venice) and, most importantly, the Papal States; that's like, something so unlikely it almost seems ASB, in hindsight. The whole thing was kept together by the mere existence of Lorenzo de' Medici, however, and not much else.
     
  6. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    Well the PoD for this world is c.1600, possibly 1605, so it would be much better to find something from that era or later to use as the basis for the confederation. The idea of Italian unity surely could come up multiple times.

    Unlikely and ASB is specifically okay here, lol. I would say that this timeline is committed to working out its crazy scenarios in as realistic a way as possible. Would it be plausible for the confederation to take shape over time rather than all at once? Maybe starting as just a regional league for northern states, later adding the larger states of the center and south...
     
  7. Neoteros Dux Mediolani

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    1111 - Matilda of Tuscany is crowned Imperial Vicar and Vice-Queen of Italy (!)
    1167 - 1st Lombard League (alliance of independent states, no actual support for unity)
    1226 - 2nd Lombard League (alliance of independent states, no actual support for unity)
    1402 - The Duchy of Milan, under Gian Galeazzo Visconti, controls much of northern Italy (he would've loved being crowned at least King of Lombardy)
    1454 - the Italic League is founded (alliance of independent states, no actual support for unity)
    1821 - 1st Carbonari uprisings (mostly aimed at obtaining a constitution; support for actual unity present, but minimal)
    1831 - 2nd Carbonari uprisings (mostly aimed at obtaining a constitution; support for actual unity present, but minimal)
    1848 - Revolutionary wave (support for actual unity widespread among quite a few sectors of the bourgeoisie, minimal elsewhere)
     
  8. Nyvis Well-Known Member

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    North Italian unity is much easier than Italian unity. The North had a lot more in common economically, culturally and politically.
     
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  9. Neoteros Dux Mediolani

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    Yeah, even in 1861, Victor Emmanuel II only wanted the North - he basically had to annex the South, it was not in his, nor Cavour's plans.

    But yeah, it looks like my old plan, with a few adjustments, is the most "likely" after all - restoration of 1796 borders in Vienna with Genoa, Noli, Ragusa and Venice as Habsburg-aligned Duchies, and a Cattaneo-led federalist revolution as a result of the weakened House of Savoy. The founding states, as a result, would be the ones in which the peninsula was split in 1796:

    Duchy of Massa and Carrara
    Duchy of Modena and Reggio
    Duchy of Mantua [1]
    Duchy of Milan [2]
    Duchy of Parma and Piacenza

    Grand Duchy of Tuscany

    Papal States
    State of the Presidi [3]

    Principality of Monaco
    Principality of Piombino
    Principality of Seborga


    Kingdom of Naples [3]
    Kingdom of Sardinia
    Kingdom of Sicily [3]
    Kingdom of Tavolara

    Republic of Cospaia
    Republic of Genoa
    Republic of Noli
    Republic of Ragusa
    Republic of San Marino
    Republic of San Marco
    Republic of Senarica

    [1] Re-established after the federalists' victory over the Habsburg realm as a constitutional monarchy, the head of state is a Gonzaga.
    [2] Re-established after the federalists' victory over the Habsburg realm as a constitutional monarchy, the head of state is a Visconti di Modrone.
    [3] The Presidi, Naples and Sicily are in a personal union.

    As for what internal territorial changes would occur, my old draft was perhaps far too ambitious, but Corsica and Trento might join later, leaving the old international borders of my first draft unchanged. The states would maintain their traditional internal subdivisions, while ad-hoc internal subdivisions resembling autonomous provinces might be created for the country's various historical minorities, even though they'd be as... uniquely shaped as Liechtensteiner municipalities, like in the case of the arbëreshe communities for example.

    As for colonialism, I think a peninsula led by the federalist faction wouldn't be as hungry for colonies as OTL's Savoy-led Kingdom; Nuova Toscana is a keeper simply because of its AH potential, the Aru Islands in New Guinea are a possibility since the local sultans actually signed treaties with explorer Emilio Cerruti in OTL, the Afar Triangle (but not the entirety of Eritrea) and Banaadir (but not the whole of Somalia) could still be kept since Assab and Mogadishu's conquests in OTL were private initiatives; the only colony whose conquest might have pan-federal consensus could be Tunisia, for historical and geographical reasons.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  10. Imperator Frank Tellurian Worldbuilder

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    Apologies for the unrelated question, but where can I find that basemap?
     
  11. Gian Wizard of Watkins Mill

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    It's the 8K-BAM
     
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  12. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    Might it be easier to achieve unification in stages? First the north, Rome and the Presidi later?

    That leaves the possibility of several interesting groups having representation. Greeks, Ladins... Jews? Romani? But if I understand correctly, these are internal to the member states and not member states themselves. Correct?

    And Nuova Toscana was established well before Federation, so it really isn't the result of colonialism by Italy as it's known in TTL.
     
  13. Neoteros Dux Mediolani

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    Yes, even though there could be autonomous provinces split between several member states.
     
  14. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    Oh wow, so like a condominium type situation? That's really interesting. Any idea how that would work - how an autonomous province that spans 2 states would be run?
     
  15. Neoteros Dux Mediolani

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    By being run, de facto, as two autonomous provinces subject to two different states; it'd be a vaguely feudal situation, kind of how Austria and Prussia were both inside and outside the HRE.
     
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  16. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    I added some of the ASB's nearest neighbors to @Gian 's 8K-BAM map. I cut it off a bit on the western end because I never worked out precise western borders for the three plains republics, and don't feel particularly like doing that right now.

    I also lightened the color of the smaller lakes, for aesthetic reasons. It's probably sloppily done and there are some dark spots here and there. Gian, if you prefer a version with the dark colors restored, or with the original grey colors, I can post it too.

    8kbam_asb.png
     
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  17. Gian Wizard of Watkins Mill

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    Love it so far yes.
     
  18. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    And here it is with words. This should be considered the new official map of the ASB - more detailed, more accurate, and less distorted than previous versions. All credit to Gian, of course. This is still a WIP because I'm not totally happy with how the words are aligned, but since I don't know when I'll be able to spend more time on it, I'd like to post it now.

    8kbam_asb-words.png
     
  19. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    La Province des Arques
    The Province of the Arques


    arques-small.png

    The Arques is located along the Mississippi River between Upper and Lower Louisiana. It is largely French-speaking, and its people have origins from many different places: Louisiana Creoles, the indigenous Quapaw, Caddo and other groups fleeing Mexican expansion, German settlers, New England Mormons, and others.

    The name "Arques" is of uncertain origin. It was first given to a French fort at the southern end of the present-day state. This fort was the origin point for the state's development. The name was then applied to the river and the nearby highlands; but it is not clear whether it comes from the Algonquian name for the Quapaw (Arkansea) or something else. In English it is said with the definite article and with the final -s pronounced; "Arks" remains a common and legal spelling in the state's English-speaking communities.

    Administrative history

    The Arques separated from Louisiana to become a separate state, but the path it took to get there is a bit complicated. This timeline gives the changes that brought the Arques to its current shape and status.

    Before incorporation:
    • 1719: France built a fort in the lower Illinois Country, establishing its colonial authority in Upper Louisiana. The province had a separate commander and a rudimentary government, but at this point no defined borders at all.
    • 1770: The capital of Upper Louisiana moved from Illinois to Saint-Louis west of the river.
    • 1795: Louisiana declared independence from republican France.
    • 1805: Pennsylvanian attacks on the Illinois country prompted Louisiana to join the same side as France in the War of the League of St. Joseph. This paved the way for future reconciliation.
    • 1810: Louisiana consented to re-join the French empire as an autonomous part of the Kingdom of New France.
    • 1818: A treaty with the Chicasaw set the Mississippi as the western boundary of that nation. Everything beyond it, including the present-day Arques, was left as a Louisianan sphere. The last phase of this negotiation happened within the Grand Council and was ratified by all the major states of Boreoamerica. At the same time, a border was finally drawn between the provinces of Upper and Lower Louisiana, and Illinois was recognized as a separate province of Louisiana.
    • 1828: Illinois was fully separated from Louisiana.
    • 1833: Louisiana again declared independence as a republic following the collapse of the Kingdom of New France.
    • 1835: Louisiana joined the Congress of the Nations, signaling greater affiliation with the Anglophone and Dutch states.
    After incorporation:
    • 1837: Louisiana concluded a treaty with Mexico fixing its western boundary. Immediately, it organized a new province of Middle Louisiana to govern the sparsely populated land between the new border and the middle stretch of the Mississippi River. The capital was at Les-Arques, at the southeastern corner of the territory.
    • 1840: Middle Louisiana's borders were surveyed and set.
    • 1849: Middle Louisiana's military governor, the Baron de Mandeville, convened its first elected assembly.
    • 1852: The assembly changed the name from Middle Louisiana to Les-Arques.
    • 1863: Louisiana's government approved a plan for greater autonomy for the northern provinces.
    • 1868: Most power in the Arques passed from the governor to the elected government, The province for the first time sent fully separate delegations to every confederal institution.
    • 1871: The provincial capital moved from the town of Les-Arques to Champ-d'Espoir on the Mississippi.
    • 1876: The Arques abolished slavery, the last part of Louisiana to do so.
    • 1886: Lower Louisiana renounced any and all supervisory powers over the Arques' government and laws.
    • 1920: The Arques finally changed its constitution to take away from Lower Louisiana the power to name its governor, the last vestige of political control that it had in the state. Instead, the governor was to name his own successor, subject to a vote of approval by the people.
     
  20. Tsochar Well-Known Member

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    Is The Arques still mormon or has that bit been retconned?
     
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