The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline

[Sersor]

284BC

With the conquest of Volcae, Massaliot League entered a golden era. They now control the important trade routes of Garonne river and together with the trade monopoly of Rhone river, Massaliot League now controls the trade of south Gaul. The trade in north west Mediterranean sea, the slave market of Massalia and the tribute of the League polis are also big contributors for the common treasury. All this made Massaliot League rich, but the silver and gold mines of Tolosa skyrocket the economy. Massalia is now, together with Carthage the biggest economic centers of west Mediterranean sea. Thanks to the efforts of both companies, Massalia now is the biggest cultural and education centre of west mediterranean world. Nobles from Rome and Magna Greacia send their sons to educate here. All this factors made Massalia to have a population boom also. Massalia have now more than one hundred thousand inhabitants and all Massaliot league more than two hundred thousands.

By place

Roman Republic

• The Gallic tribe called the Senones, who has settled on the Adriatic coast north of Picenum, attacks Arretium in Etruria. While attempting to relieve this allied city, the Romans under the command of Lucius Caecilius Metellus Denter suffer a costly defeat in the Battle of Arretium. Aroused by this disaster, a Roman army under Manius Curius Dentatus invades the Senones' territory, defeating them and driving them out of the Italian peninsula.

Greece

• Pyrrhus of Epirus is driven out of Macedonia and back into Epirus by Lysimachus.

Asia Minor

• Ptolemy I's eldest (legitimate) son, Ptolemy Keraunos, whose mother, Eurydice, the daughter of Antipater, had been repudiated by the new King Ptolemy II, flees Egypt to the court of Lysimachus, the king of Thrace, Macedon and Asia Minor.
• Agathocles' widow Lysandra flees with their children and with Alexander, Agathocles' brother, to the court of Seleucus, who at once invades Lysimachus' territory in Asia Minor.

 

[Avrorrange]

So why did the Romans and the Greeks of Magna Graecia send their kids to Massalian schools?Wouldn't the ones in mainland Greece,mainly Athens,be much more prestigious and equally close?

 

[Sersor]

So why did the Romans and the Greeks of Magna Graecia send their kids to Massalian schools?Wouldn't the ones in mainland Greece,mainly Athens,be much more prestigious and equally close?

Well this happen in OTL also. Besides that doesn't mean that all go to Massalia.

 

[Avrorrange]

Well this happen in OTL also. Besides that doesn't mean that all go to Massalia.

I see. So Massalia's extremely well regarded by the Romans?

I also have a few other questions.Are the tagmatas regular units or are they part time units that normally don't have it's ranks full?Another thing is on what fashion do the Massalians organize their cavalry?Cataphracts,light cavalry in the Celtic fashion,classic Hippeis,cavalry in classic Macedonian style?

By the way,why are soft drink companies 'soft-drink' companies?I mean why are they called so?The first think that popped into my head after reading that was coca cola and pepsi.

 

[Sersor]

I see. So Massalia's extremely well regarded by the Romans?

I also have a few other questions.Are the tagmatas regular units or are they part time units that normally don't have it's ranks full?Another thing is on what fashion do the Massalians organize their cavalry?Cataphracts,light cavalry in the Celtic fashion,classic Hippeis,cavalry in classic Macedonian style?

By the way,why are soft drink companies are 'soft-drink' companies?I mean why are they called so?The first think that popped into my head after reading that was coca cola and pepsi.

Tagmata are semi regular units with arms supplied from the state( arms supply from the state was mostly for the poor citizens)

The Massaliot tagma cavalry was drawn primarily from the richest class. Each tagma contained a cavalry contingent of five hundred horse. The cavalry contingent was divided into ten tmimata (squadrons) of 50 men each. The squadron members would elect as their officers two dioikites(commanders) mostly from high status noble families, of whom the first to be chosen would act as the squadron's leader and the other as his deputy. The cavalry of a tagma(and presumably confederate cavalry also) was armoured and specialised in the shock charge.

Heh "soft drink" companies does sounds weird. I should explained it better. In classical Athens, the institution of liturgies provided many ways for the wealthy citizens to bestow their wealth and time upon the community. The rich Athenians where kind of “sponsors” of the Academy also. In my time line, they grouped in 'soft-drink' companies/factions/political parties to gain more influence. For example in Athens OTL: In the speech Against Androtion Demosthenes describes a group of some four to ten councillors who, in collusion with Androtion, were capable of controlling the Council of Five Hundred

So in conclusion the massaliot League “soft drinks” companies are informal political parties that nobles with same interests meet in private meetings drinking watered wine and organise their agenda.

 

[Sersor]

283 BC

With part of the gold from the sanctuary in Tolosa(Poseidonius version) the famous architect Xenarius is invited to Massalia to plan a massive expansion of the city. A new orthogonal grid sector is build. This conclude a new big theater with a seating capacity of nine thousands, a new gymnasium, a new arsenal, a naval arsenal and most important of all a huge mouseio*. This massive campus of more than ten buildings was second only to Alexandria’s mouseio. The Massalia mouseio was the home of music/poetry, a philosophical school and library, it did have a room devoted to the study of anatomy,geography,mathematics,philosophy and an installation for astronomical observations. It also worked close with the arsenal of the city. The mouseio featured a roofed walkway, an arcade of seats and a communal dining room where scholars routinely ate and shared ideas. The campus was also filled with private study rooms, residential quarters, lecture halls. More than two hundred scholars invited to lived in the mouseio. Staff members and scholars were salaried by the mouseio and paid no taxes. They also received free meals, free room and board, and free servants.

* Mouseio(museum) were institutes (universities) and the latest trend for influence, power and knowledge in the Hellenistic era.

• A military expedition of one tagma under the orders of strategos Alkaios went to help Rome against the Etruscans and the Gallic tribes of the Boii and the Senones

By place
Greece

• Following Demetrius Poliorcetes' death in captivity as a prisoner of Seleucus, his son Antigonus assumes the title of King ofMacedonia, though in name only, as King Lysimachus of Thrace is in control of Macedonia. Demetrius' remains are given to Antigonus and he is honoured with a grand funeral in Corinth. After this, Demetrius is interred in the town of Demetrias which he had founded.

Roman Republic

• Consuls: Publius Cornelius Dolabella and Gnaeus Domitius Calvinus Maximus.
• At the Battle of Lake Vadimo, Roman and Massaliot league forces finally quell the allied Etruscans and Gauls. The Roman army is led by consul Publius Cornelius Dolabella. Rome is at last undisputed master of northern and central Italy.

Egypt

• The canal from the Nile River to the Red Sea, initially started but not completed by the Egyptian pharaoh Necho II and repaired by the Persian king Darius I, is again repaired and made operational by Ptolemy II.
• Ptolemy II enlarges the library at Alexandria and appoints the grammarian Zenodotus to collect and edit all the Greek poets.

Ps: Any suggestions for the next trade expedition of Adelphius ?

 

[Avrorrange]

Tagmata are semi regular units with arms supplied from the state( arms supply from the state was mostly for the poor citizens)

The Massaliot tagma cavalry was drawn primarily from the richest class. Each tagma contained a cavalry contingent of five hundred horse. The cavalry contingent was divided into ten tmimata (squadrons) of 50 men each. The squadron members would elect as their officers two dioikites(commanders) mostly from high status noble families, of whom the first to be chosen would act as the squadron's leader and the other as his deputy. The cavalry of a tagma(and presumably confederate cavalry also) was armoured and specialised in the shock charge.

Heh "soft drink" companies does sounds weird. I should explained it better. In classical Athens, the institution of liturgies provided many ways for the wealthy citizens to bestow their wealth and time upon the community. The rich Athenians where kind of “sponsors” of the Academy also. In my time line, they grouped in 'soft-drink' companies/factions/political parties to gain more influence. For example in Athens OTL: In the speech Against Androtion Demosthenes describes a group of some four to ten councillors who, in collusion with Androtion, were capable of controlling the Council of Five Hundred

So in conclusion the massaliot League “soft drinks” companies are informal political parties that nobles with same interests meet in private meetings drinking watered wine and organise their agenda.

So are the cavalry equipped in the style of Cataphracts or Macedonian Companion Cavalry?\

Oh,so the term soft drink came from watered down wine.

 

[Sersor]

So are the cavalry equipped in the style of Cataphracts or Macedonian Companion Cavalry?\

Oh,so the term soft drink came from watered down wine.

More close to Macedonian companion cavalry and roman cavalry of that era.

Yes watered down wine was a common thing in ancient Greece. The term "soft drink" was a bad example

 

[Sersor]

282 BC

The expert siege engineer Dionysius of Alexandria inventor of polybolos(repeating ballista) together with engineers from Syracuse were invited to Massalia to work in the new arsenal and expand the military knowledge in the field of siege weapons. Highly advance torsion ballistas and lithobolos catapults were build both for the tagmata and for the defence of cities. Most importantly a new model of polybolos ballista developed. Rome asks for help in the coming war against King Pyrrhus of Epirus,Taranto and their allies. Massaliot League assembly declines the request, not wanting to fight fellow Greeks. The tagma under strategos Alkaios return to Massalia.

• An envoy is send to Alexandria to acquire book copies for the library of the museum of Massalia.
• A new trade hub builded in Garrone river by dynatoi.
• A new expedition starts from Garrone river with the mission to reach Atlantic ocean and establish a trade hub colony.

By place
Asia Minor

• The city of Pergamum in Asia Minor ends its allegiance to Lysimachus. Its ruler, Philetaerus, transfers his allegiance, as well as the important fortress of Pergamon and his treasury, to Seleucus, who allows him a far larger measure of independence than he had hitherto enjoyed.

Roman Republic

• The Battle of Populonia is fought between Rome and the Etruscans. The Romans are victorious and, as a result, the Etruscan threat to Rome is sharply diminished.
• The Magna Graecia city of Thurii appeals to Rome for help against the native Italian tribes. Though the Roman Senate hesitates, the plebeian Assembly decides to respond. Thurii is saved, but Tarentum, jealous of Rome's interference, attacks and sinks some Roman ships entering its harbour. Roman envoys, sent to protest, are mistreated.
• Rome declares war on Tarentum. King Pyrrhus of Epirus declares his willingness to come to the aid of Tarentum. Tarentum also looks for support from the Samnites and other Italian tribes in southern Italy.

 

[Sersor]

281 BC


Naval engineers and shipbuilders from Ptolemaic Egypt,Rhodes and Cyprus invited to work in the new naval arsenal. There they build twenty quenquemeres and twenty powerful cataphract octeres(equipped each of them with two polybolos and two lithobolos) The two rival companies also commissioned ten quenquemeres each. The Massaliot League fleet now consist of twenty cataphract octeres ,sixty quinquereme, ten quadrireme and several smaller ships.

• The trade hub in Eudaemon(aden) destroyed by pirates.
• Famous poet Theocritus is invited to stay in the museum.
• Naucratia is founded in the area of modern day Arcachon.
• Two thousands book copies acquired from Alexandria.

By place

Asia Minor

• The Battle of Corupedium in Lydia is the last battle of the Diadochi, the rival successors to Alexander the Great. It is fought between the armies of Lysimachus, King of Thrace and Macedonia, and Seleucus, ruler of Eastern Anatolia, Syria, Phoenicia,Judea, Babylonia and Iran. Seleucus kills Lysimachus during the battle.

• Seleucus takes over Thrace and then tries to seize Macedonia. However, he falls into a trap near Lysimachia, Thrace, set by Ptolemy Keraunos, one of the sons of Ptolemy I and Arsinoe II's half brother, who murders Seleucus and takes Macedonia for himself.
• Cineas, a Thessalian serving as chief adviser to King Pyrrhus of Epirus, after visiting Rome attempts, without success, to dissuade Pyrrhus from invading southern Italy.

Seleucid Empire

• Seleucus is succeeded as ruler of the Seleucid empire by Antiochus. He is immediately beset by revolts in Syria (probably instigated by Ptolemy II of Egypt) and by independence movements in northern Anatolia.

280 BC

Strategos Orestes inspired by the tactics of the Macedonia/Hellenistic kingdoms (primarily the use of artillery by Alexander the Great at the battle of Jaxartes) makes the second Orestiki military reformation. The tagma from now on will have an artillery department. Another big change with second Orestiki, is that from now own Massaliot League will have a professional standing army of 2 tagmata. One based in Massalia and one in Tolosa. In reserves if needed 3 extra tagmata could be summoned. Other important influences was the Tarantine cavalry (Tarantines proper). A new small mobile(build on spot) wooden tower of around five meters called panoptes is introduced as an eye center in the battle field from were the strategos/officers can see the action on the battle fields and issue faster and more precise orders.

The new tagma unit:
three thousand heavy infantry,one thousand five hundred velites/archers,five hundred cavalry,five hundred mounted archers and five hundred artillery support personal. The artillery is composed of forty torsion ballista,twenty small(suited for volley barrage tactics) lithobolos catapults ,forty polybolos ballista and three build on spot panoptes.

• A new poet from Theocritus is the talk of the town.

By place

Seleucid Empire

• Antiochus is defeated by Egypt's Ptolemy II in the Damascene War.

Greece

• Pyrrhus makes an alliance with Ptolemy Keraunos, King of Macedon. This allows him to go to southern Italy with his army.
• The Achaean League is reformed by twelve towns in the northern Peloponnesus and will later grow to include non-Achaean cities. The League achieves a common coinage and foreign policy and the member cities pool their armed forces.
• Rhodes, rising in prosperity, becomes head of an Island League and helps to keep the peace and freedom of the Greek islands in the Aegean Sea.
• The Colossus of Rhodes is completed by the sculptor Chares of Lindos after twelve years' work. It becomes one of the seven wonders of the ancient world.

Roman Republic

• Responding to an appeal from Tarentum, King Pyrrhus of Epirus uses his army of over 20,000 men against the Romans. In the Battle of Heraclea he defeats a Roman army led by consul Publius Valerius Laevinus. Pyrrhus's judicious use of his elephants plays a large part in his victory. Several tribes including the Lucani, Bruttii and the Messapians as well as the Greek cities of Crotone and Locri join Pyrrhus. Pyrrhus advances as far north as Latium.

 

[Hecatee]

I'm not so sure about the new Tagma. First the panoptes : generalship and leadership of the time demand that the leader of an army be at the head of his force, even more after the Alexander and Diadochi period where the only true leader is the military strongman, whatever his other merits or failings. Even in Rome the general has to lead his forces. It is an inheritance from the Homeric heroic ideal, and I don't see a culture born from a mix of Greek and Celt traditions lead to such a radical change.
Second, the cavalry, especially the mounted archers, seems rather surprising, especially in the West. There is no local tradition for such kind of troops and even the Diadochoi did not use them extensively at this point in time, except the Seleucids.
Third, the artillery troops. You have around 100 artillery pieces for 500 men, that is around 5 per weapon. This seems both too few to build and operate the machines while on campaign (those weapons were never carried mounted but had to be assembled every time, often using local wood : only the metal fittings and the specialized equipement was carried, due to weight and space) and too many trained artillerist : look at a roman legion, which might have had maybe a half a dozen men able to supervise the artillery but used the common soldiers to build and use the damn thing.
So overall I think your reform is too much, too soon.

 

[Sersor]

I'm not so sure about the new Tagma. First the panoptes : generalship and leadership of the time demand that the leader of an army be at the head of his force, even more after the Alexander and Diadochi period where the only true leader is the military strongman, whatever his other merits or failings. Even in Rome the general has to lead his forces. It is an inheritance from the Homeric heroic ideal, and I don't see a culture born from a mix of Greek and Celt traditions lead to such a radical change.
Second, the cavalry, especially the mounted archers, seems rather surprising, especially in the West. There is no local tradition for such kind of troops and even the Diadochoi did not use them extensively at this point in time, except the Seleucids.
Third, the artillery troops. You have around 100 artillery pieces for 500 men, that is around 5 per weapon. This seems both too few to build and operate the machines while on campaign (those weapons were never carried mounted but had to be assembled every time, often using local wood : only the metal fittings and the specialized equipement was carried, due to weight and space) and too many trained artillerist : look at a roman legion, which might have had maybe a half a dozen men able to supervise the artillery but used the common soldiers to build and use the damn thing.
So overall I think your reform is too much, too soon.

About panoptes: ok you are right the generalship and leadership of the time demand that the leader of an army be at the head of his force.That doesn’t mean that every King/general/strategos was always at the head of his force. Also that doesn’t mean that the didn’t want to have access to what is happening on the field. In my timeline Massalia in 281 BC is the most advance in the world in the field of siege engineering. The “military genius” strategos of Massalia Orestes is old by now and not capable to lead as it used to do. So together with the scholars and engineers of the arsenal and the museum of Massalia they come up with this idea. Besides 3rd century BC its an age of wonders and breakthroughs(Archimedes siege engines for example)

The cavalry influences was from Tarentum(Magna Graecia) colonist that came to Massalia in 295 bc to take free land in the ex Vocontii area. The Tarantine cavalry* (Tarantines proper) used javelins but Massaliot league switched it to bow.

*Tarantine cavalry

Originally the cavalry of the army of the Greek city of Tarantas (Tarentum) in Magna Graecia, it was renowned for its peculiar battle tactics. It was the only cavalry of the Graeco-Roman world to employ pure, advanced skirmishing tactics. It was unarmored and normally equipped with a shield and javelins, which it hurled at the enemy, evading any attempt to engage in close combat. In the Hellenistic era, we have numerous references to Tarantine units, even in the armies of the eastern Macedonian empires, but unfortunately no definite account of their equipment or their tactical use. From the Greek tactical manuals we learn that Tarantines is the collective name of the lightly armored cavalry, which was equipped with javelins and lance, that first skirmishes with the enemy and then charges. Cavalry that avoided using the charge, preferring to remain at a distance and skirmish, was called Tarantines proper.

About the artillery i'll reply little later. The Euro final is about to start

 

[Hecatee]

About panoptes: ok you are right the generalship and leadership of the time demand that the leader of an army be at the head of his force.That doesn’t mean that every King/general/strategos was always at the head of his force. Also that doesn’t mean that the didn’t want to have access to what is happening on the field. In my timeline Massalia in 281 BC is the most advance in the world in the field of siege engineering. The “military genius” strategos of Massalia Orestes is old by now and not capable to lead as it used to do. So together with the scholars and engineers of the arsenal and the museum of Massalia they come up with this idea. Besides 3rd century BC its an age of wonders and breakthroughs(Archimedes siege engines for example)

I partly agree with you, on the fact that the age was wondrous for inovations. Yet one cannot go completely against the trends of the time : Seleucos shows that old men kept on the battlefield and not at the rear or in a tower, unless they are in a siege situation. Beside that we know that often battle raised too much dust for control anyway, thus making it rapidly useless beside being dangerous as a focal point for ennemy forces. So I'm not really taken by the idea

The cavalry influences was from Tarentum(Magna Graecia) colonist that came to Massalia in 295 bc to take free land in the ex Vocontii area. The Tarantine cavalry* (Tarantines proper) used javelins but Massaliot league switched it to bow.
*Tarantine cavalry

Originally the cavalry of the army of the Greek city of Tarantas (Tarentum) in Magna Graecia, it was renowned for its peculiar battle tactics. It was the only cavalry of the Graeco-Roman world to employ pure, advanced skirmishing tactics. It was unarmored and normally equipped with a shield and javelins, which it hurled at the enemy, evading any attempt to engage in close combat. In the Hellenistic era, we have numerous references to Tarantine units, even in the armies of the eastern Macedonian empires, but unfortunately no definite account of their equipment or their tactical use. From the Greek tactical manuals we learn that Tarantines is the collective name of the lightly armored cavalry, which was equipped with javelins and lance, that first skirmishes with the enemy and then charges. Cavalry that avoided using the charge, preferring to remain at a distance and skirmish, was called Tarantines proper.

I'm not sure that such a large cavalry is really possible for southern Gaul of the time. First they may lack proper land for raising them, even if they do control what is now called Camargue : geography was different at the time and the region had less plains availlable, and they need to have at least five horses for each horse fighting the battle so that means around 25 000 horses in training, breeding or availlable for the 5 tagmas of Massalia and allies, that's rather a lot.
Next to that is the issue of horse archers. They require training, they require adapted weapons, they require also a good place to fight. Equipement and tactics means black sea mercenaries or persian mercenaries, which would not be very common this far west. As for place in the fight, well they would not really have it : Gaul is covered with deep woods, worse than in Caesar's time, and that's not good land for archery nor for cavalry. It is not for nothing that the Gauls did not have that much cavalry either

About the artillery i'll reply little later. The Euro final is about to start

What, AH second to loosy band of guys running after a ball ? scandalous

 

[Sersor]

I partly agree with you, on the fact that the age was wondrous for inovations. Yet one cannot go completely against the trends of the time : Seleucos shows that old men kept on the battlefield and not at the rear or in a tower, unless they are in a siege situation. Beside that we know that often battle raised too much dust for control anyway, thus making it rapidly useless beside being dangerous as a focal point for ennemy forces. So I'm not really taken by the idea

Don’t take Homeric heroic idea for granted. Its more than possible that ancient historians even the generals themselves were extravagant to their stories. Ptolemy was fifty five years old at the battle of Gaza. Seleucus fifty seven and Lysimachus fifty nine at the battle of Ipsus. You think Ptolemy,Seleucus, Lysimachus or other old age kings, generals were actually in the front of the army and charged? Maybe some did it but for sure not all and not all the time. Ok ofc they were in the battle fields inspiring the troops by their presence etc, but basically they were planing the tactics and giving orders. About the dust, i don’t say that panoptes is a game changer but rather an extra “logistic” help. Its a small innovation. Let me remind you the Roman corvus. Its was a rather simple idea but a game changer for the Romans in the naval battles against Carthage(i don’t say that panoptes have the same impact as corvus) Its a AH timeline different things wiil happen and butterflies will fly

I'm not sure that such a large cavalry is really possible for southern Gaul of the time. First they may lack proper land for raising them, even if they do control what is now called Camargue : geography was different at the time and the region had less plains availlable, and they need to have at least five horses for each horse fighting the battle so that means around 25 000 horses in training, breeding or availlable for the 5 tagmas of Massalia and allies, that's rather a lot.
Next to that is the issue of horse archers. They require training, they require adapted weapons, they require also a good place to fight. Equipement and tactics means black sea mercenaries or persian mercenaries, which would not be very common this far west. As for place in the fight, well they would not really have it : Gaul is covered with deep woods, worse than in Caesar's time, and that's not good land for archery nor for cavalry. It is not for nothing that the Gauls did not have that much cavalry either

Massalia cavalry in OTL was renowned: the Romans awarded it credits for its action during the Second Punic War in the Rhone valley. So Massalia a state with a cavalry tradition in OTL and in control of the Camargue* horse breed area i am confided that can muster a big cavalry(ofc not twenty five thousands). Massaliot league at this point (280 BC) have a standing army of two tagmata. That means a total of two thousands horses that i believe is pretty doable. The three tagmata in reserves where summoned only if things were really bad and used the same horse pool. The horse arches ofc require training etc, but you don’t justify why Massalia can’t train them, especially now with all this wealth in the common treasury and specialists coming to the new arsenal from all over. How could the city of Tarentum and hellenistic states train their "Tarantines proper" cavalry? Ok its bow instead of javelin but still is not rocket science. As for the place of fight you are right Gauls is covered with trees etc, but Massalia isn’t going to fight with Gauls only, they are a cosmopolite state
In my timeline (280 BC) and pretty much after the conquest of Volcae in 284 BC, the Massaliot League rivals is Carthage,Rome,Syracuse and not so much the Gaul tribes.

*The Camargue breed was appreciated by the Celtic and the Romans in OTL

ps: if you have in mind the gaul Trimarcisia cavalry thats not the case with the Massaliot cavalry.

Third, the artillery troops. You have around 100 artillery pieces for 500 men, that is around 5 per weapon. This seems both too few to build and operate the machines while on campaign (those weapons were never carried mounted but had to be assembled every time, often using local wood : only the metal fittings and the specialized equipement was carried, due to weight and space) and too many trained artillerist : look at a roman legion, which might have had maybe a half a dozen men able to supervise the artillery but used the common soldiers to build and use the damn thing.

You are right those weapons were never carried mounted but had to be assembled every time, often using local wood. Only the metal fittings and the specialized equipment was carried, due to weight and space. I don’t say the opposite. In fact i mention earlier that panoptes are also build on spot(i presumed for the artillery was to obvious to tell). The eighty artillery pieces of massaliot army are rather small to medium sized and advanced for the era artillery weapons operated by a average of three people. So five hundred people in charge of them i think is a decent number. Besides common soldiers(maybe some slaves also) help to build the damn thing.

What, AH second to loosy band of guys running after a ball ? scandalous

Shame on me Grats to Portogal for the win!

 

[AJNolte]

This looks interesting; I'll be watching it. Greko-Celtic cultural fusion is interesting, and not done often enough.

 

[Sersor]

This looks interesting; I'll be watching it. Greko-Celtic cultural fusion is interesting, and not done often enough.

Thanks you!

 

[Avrorrange]

Don’t take Homeric heroic idea for granted. Its more than possible that ancient historians even the generals themselves were extravagant to their stories. Ptolemy was fifty five years old at the battle of Gaza. Seleucus fifty seven and Lysimachus fifty nine at the battle of Ipsus. You think Ptolemy,Seleucus, Lysimachus or other old age kings, generals were actually in the front of the army and charged? Maybe some did it but for sure not all and not all the time. Ok ofc they were in the battle fields inspiring the troops by their presence etc, but basically they were planing the tactics and giving orders. About the dust, i don’t say that panoptes is a game changer but rather an extra “logistic” help. Its a small innovation. Let me remind you the Roman corvus. Its was a rather simple idea but a game changer for the Romans in the naval battles against Carthage(i don’t say that panoptes have the same impact as corvus) Its a AH timeline different things wiil happen and butterflies will fly



Massalia cavalry in OTL was renowned: the Romans awarded it credits for its action during the Second Punic War in the Rhone valley. So Massalia a state with a cavalry tradition in OTL and in control of the Camargue* horse breed area i am confided that can muster a big cavalry(ofc not twenty five thousands). Massaliot league at this point (280 BC) have a standing army of two tagmata. That means a total of two thousands horses that i believe is pretty doable. The three tagmata in reserves where summoned only if things were really bad and used the same horse pool. The horse arches ofc require training etc, but you don’t justify why Massalia can’t train them, especially now with all this wealth in the common treasury and specialists coming to the new arsenal from all over. How could the city Tarentum and hellenistic states train their "Tarantines proper" cavalry? Ok its bow instead of javelin but still is not rocket science. As for the place of fight you are right Gauls is covered with trees etc, but Massalia isn’t going to fight with Gauls only, they are a cosmopolite state
In my timeline (280 BC) and pretty much after the conquest of Volcae in 284 BC, the Massaliot League rivals is Carthage,Rome,Syracuse and not so much the Gaul tribes.

*The Camargue breed was appreciated by the Celtic and the Romans in OTL

ps: if you have in mind the gaul Trimarcisia cavalry thats not the case with the Massaliot cavalry.




You are right those weapons were never carried mounted but had to be assembled every time, often using local wood. Only the metal fittings and the specialized equipment was carried, due to weight and space. I don’t say the opposite. In fact i mention earlier that panoptes are also build on spot(i presumed for the artillery was to obvious to tell). The eighty artillery pieces of massaliot army are rather small to medium sized and advanced for the era artillery weapons operated by a average of three people. So five hundred people in charge of them i think is a decent number. Besides common soldiers(maybe some slaves also) help to build the damn thing.


Shame on me Grats to Portogal for the win!

Sounds like the Romans took the Massalian rejection of help in their war against the Greeks hard.

 

[Sersor]

Sounds like the Romans took the Massalian rejection of help in their war against the Greeks hard.

Massalia is now a major player in west mediterranean sea. All major powers in the area are natural rivals. Nevertheless the rejection for help harmed deeply the Massaliot League- Roman relations.

 

[Sersor]

279 BC

The newly built trade colony of Naucratia, opens new trade routes in the Atlantic ocean for the Massaliot league. A new expedition with funds from the common treasury under Adelphius will follow Pytheas route to the North, to establish new trade hubs. Three modified quadriremes and several trade ships with more than one thousand crew,colonist and traders set sail from Naucratia. The formal diplomatic relationships with the Santones tribe lead to a new ally to the North for Massaliot League. To the South of Naucratia, there were more than twenty tribes of Aquitani, but they were small and lacking in repute. The most important tribe, the Ausci( a major trade partner of Massaliot League since the fall of Tolosa) also singed an alliance with Massalia. The Sociates,Bigerrones and most of the others small tribes of the area were rather hostile to the Greeks.

• The formal Allies of Masaliot league are Santones,Ausci and Sequani.
• News from Italy reports that Romans are loosing the war against Pyrrhus.
• Rome and Pyrrhus both have friends is the assembly forcing Massaliot League stay neutral.
• Formal relations establish with Achaean league and Rhode.
• A new non aggression treaty singed with Carthage

By place
Greece

• An army of Gauls under Brennus invade Greece. A section of the army, commanded by Bolgios, crushes a Macedonian army led by Ptolemy Keraunos, who is killed in the battle. At the narrow pass of Thermopylae, on the east coast of central Greece, Brennus' forces suffer heavy losses while trying to break through the Greek defence comprising the Phocians and the Aetolians. Eventually Brennus finds a way around the pass but the Greeks escape by sea. Brennus pushes on to Delphi where he is defeated and forced to retreat, after which he dies of wounds sustained in the battle. His army falls back to the river Spercheios where it is routed byThessalians and Malians. Some of the survivors settle in a part of Asia Minor that will eventually be called Galatia, while some settle in Thrace, founding a short-lived city-state named Tylis.

Roman Republic

• The Carthaginians and the Romans agree to support each other against a common foe. The Carthaginians give Rome money and ships in their fight against Pyrrhus, the king of Epirus.
• Pyrrhus realizes that he cannot capture Rome and suggests peace terms to the Romans. Pyrrhus sends his chief advisor, Cineas, to Rome to negotiate a peace. Cineas demands that the Romans halt their aggression against the Greeks of southern Italy and restore the lands the Romans have taken from the Bruttii, the Apulians, and the Samnites. The Romans reject his demands, largely at the instigation of the former Roman censor, Appius Claudius Caecus.
• In renewed fighting, Pyrrhus of Epirus, leading the combined Tarantine, Oscan, Samnite, and Greek forces, wins a 'Pyrrhic victory' against the Romans led by consul Publius Decius Mus at the Battle of Asculum, called such because his victory comes at a great cost to his own forces. Pyrrhus is reported to have said afterwards, "One more victory against the Romans and we shall be utterly ruined!" Disheartened, Pyrrhus retires to Tarentum and sends Cineas to make renewed peace overtures to Rome. These talks are inconclusive.

Egypt

• The aggression of Ptolemy II of Egypt continues to cause friction with Antiochus, who loses Miletus, in south-western Asia Minor, to Ptolemy.

 

[Shevek23]

Why is Naucratia not on the site of OTL Bordeaux? If you go from Tolosia (Toulouse, right?) to the Garrone and then just follow the Garrone to its estuary on the Atlantic, there you are, Bordeaux. Not this other little town some 30 miles southwest! That little bay is not fed by any stream big enough to navigate. I can't see any advantage it has over the site of Bordeaux, so why would the expedition founding it go down the Garrone, then cut west for no apparent reason, overland to the coast? That can't be helpful regarding trade. So how come?