Valid points @Artaxerxes
I don't want to spoil the story so i cant really answer here. About South America although really interesting i find it hard to happen.
The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline
- Thread starter Sersor
- Start date
Valid points @Artaxerxes
I don't want to spoil the story so i cant really answer here. About South America although really interesting i find it hard to happen.
201 BC The Kola nut
201 BC
West Africa trade update
The magical nut…
Greek merchants from the trade colony of Astypylaia while in Taruga, Nok kingdom capital, they where invited to a local wedding. There they were offered a mysterious nut to chew. The Greeks hesitate at start since the nut had a bitter flavour. After a while and thrilled by its effects, the Greeks wanted to learn everything about this magic nut.
West Africa trade update
The magical nut…
Greek merchants from the trade colony of Astypylaia while in Taruga, Nok kingdom capital, they where invited to a local wedding. There they were offered a mysterious nut to chew. The Greeks hesitate at start since the nut had a bitter flavour. After a while and thrilled by its effects, the Greeks wanted to learn everything about this magic nut.
- The Kola nut has been a major commodity in West Africa for many centuries. Red,white or of shades in between the Kola nuts were valued because they cleansed the mouth, provided a spurt of energy and were credited with numerous medicinal and other properties. They were also mildly addictive. The local people chewed it, at naming ceremonies,weddings and it constituted a luxury. Grown only in the forest, Kola found with the Greek merchants a ready market immediately.
- The kola nut, also know as cola acuminate, is a caffeine-rich nut that is native to tropical Africa. Kola nut is a stimulant in its own right, containing 1.5% - 2% caffeine, plus theobromine, which increases cerebral circulation. Theobromine is the alkaloid compound that can be found in chocolate and is thought to contribute a sense of alertness and well-being. This combination of caffeine and theobromine may be a contributing factor for the mild sense of euphoria that’s often reported after chewing the nuts.
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The kola nut is apparently grown in significant quantities in Greece and Turkey, so the Epirotes and Pergamonians (Pergamoi? Pergamotes?) could eventually try to cultivate it to challenge the Massalians in that market.
The Kola Nut? Interesting - not only does West Africa have the ability to export Gold for Salt - but now that gold can come BACK for Kola Nut! Haha! Fantastic. Next we'll have sugar in the Western Markets.
I think we're certainly going to see a philosophy that recognises the value of a wide and varied market. With customer bases for any good (even internally) from Italy to the Baltic to West Africa - any new industry and agricultural crop can grow rapidly.
If agriculture is to build the economic base of west africa - this document on indigenous crops might be useful. http://www.worldwatch.org/system/files/NtP-Africa's-Indigenous-Crops.pdf
I think we're certainly going to see a philosophy that recognises the value of a wide and varied market. With customer bases for any good (even internally) from Italy to the Baltic to West Africa - any new industry and agricultural crop can grow rapidly.
If agriculture is to build the economic base of west africa - this document on indigenous crops might be useful. http://www.worldwatch.org/system/files/NtP-Africa's-Indigenous-Crops.pdf
I know about this map. But this is a modern times agriculture map. The climate for Kola nut is very specific.
About Pergamon i think is "Pergamiotes"
Yes the kola nut will be really huge in the markets. There is no sugar in west Africa but there is another "spice" that the Greek merchants will soon find out!
Nice idea about the philosophy and thanks for the link!
200 BC/ World update
200 BC (one hundred years of this ATL! hurray! I made a map frenzy to celebrate it!
Thank you all for your support,comments,criticism! They really motivated to keep going with this ATL)
With peace and stability in all her lands and new precious goods from Africa, Massaliot League entered a new golden age. The population boom due to new agricultural technics(water mills etc) and the riches in West Africa, lead to a new massive colonial wave. The three political parties/companies of the League supported numerous expeditions of new trade post/colonies in west Africa.
Indika
PS: I want to make this ATL more alive by using small stories, but since i am not good at writing and my english kind of sucks... i am looking for someone that interested to participate in the writing of this ATL. Feel free to message me!
Top 10 cities
Estimate of the Population of this ATL
Greek peninsula 2,6 mil pop
Anatolia 7,2 mil(1,4 mil Greeks-1,2 mil hellenised local mix)
Greater Syria 4 mil(0,6 mil Greeks-1 mil hellenised local mix)
Egypt 4,5 mil(0,5+ mil Greeks 0,8 hellenised local mix)
Italy 3 mil(0,4+ mil Greeks)
Sicily 0,7 mil
Iberia 3 mil(0.4 Greeks-0,3 hellenised local mix)
North Gaul 3,2mil(0,4 hellenized Gauls)
North Balkans 2 mil
South Gaul 2,6 mil(0,8+ mil Greeks- 1,2 mil hellenised Gauls)
Persia/Bactria)central asia 25+ mil(0,5+ mil Greeks- 2.3 hellenised local mix)
India 45+ Mil( 0,1 Greeks ,0,2 hellenised Indians)
Bosporus kingdom 0,2 Greeks -0,1 hellenised local mix)
Thank you all for your support,comments,criticism! They really motivated to keep going with this ATL)With peace and stability in all her lands and new precious goods from Africa, Massaliot League entered a new golden age. The population boom due to new agricultural technics(water mills etc) and the riches in West Africa, lead to a new massive colonial wave. The three political parties/companies of the League supported numerous expeditions of new trade post/colonies in west Africa.
- After the Kola nut, the league traders discovered couple of more spices in west Africa. The alligator pepper and the grains of paradise(both are types of pepper)
- The league copied the innovate beehive and cylindrical furnaces of Taruga/Nok kingdom and started to produce better quality steel
- hydraulis becomes a trend between the rich and nobles families of the league. Protagoras(student of Diogenes of Thessaly, who introduced the hydraulic in Massalia in 222 BC) an engineer/mathematician of the museum of Massalia famous for his hydraulis, to meet with the growing demand, opens the first hydraulic factory in Massalia.
Indika
- In a new major battle, Diodotus III and Shalishuka armies killed Bindusarha and crashed Mauryan and Kalinga army. After that Diodotus III conquered Pataliputra and Shalishuka the north and west lands of the Mauryan empire and the Kalinga kingdom.
- With their powerful navy Eschatians started to raid the south indian sea.
- In Epirus the young king Ptolemy keraunos II died mysteriously . His regent Nicomedes declared himself the new king of Epirus.
- Sparta and Athens formed a new alliance with Sparta in Charge of the army and Athens in charge of the navy.
- Although the rebellion in upper Egypt was crashed in 202 BC the situation is still not stable. For this reason Ptolemy IV invites a well know spartan general Cleombrotous with 2000 spartan mercenaries to re organise his army and deal with the issue( Cleombrotous was famous with dealings with the rebelions of the helots of Sparta).
- The first good measurement of the distance between Earth and the Sun is made by Eratosthenes. By studying lunar eclipses, his result is roughly 150 000 000 km. The currently accepted value is 149 597 870 691 ± 30 metres.
- For prestige reasons Antiochus III decides to build a museum in his capital Seleucia. He emphasises especially to bring engineers from Massalia to update his artillery/siege engines.
- The roman consul Scipio without waiting for approval from Massaliot league, raised an army to repel a small Samnite rebellion
- With the the expansion of the kingdom in the west, Bosporus traders started to trade with the Zarubintsy tribes in the upper and middle Dnieper and Pripyat Rivers.
PS: I want to make this ATL more alive by using small stories, but since i am not good at writing and my english kind of sucks... i am looking for someone that interested to participate in the writing of this ATL. Feel free to message me!
Top 10 cities
- Alexandria 350000 pop
- Pataliputra 350000
- Massalia 320000
- Syracuse 250000
- Pratisthana 250000
- Seleucia 240000
- Carthage 180000
- Antioch 170000
- Ujjain 150000
- Pergamon100000
- Diodotian Empire
- Ptolemaic Empire
- Massaliot League
- Seleucids Empire
- Samprati Empire
Estimate of the Population of this ATL
Greek peninsula 2,6 mil pop
Anatolia 7,2 mil(1,4 mil Greeks-1,2 mil hellenised local mix)
Greater Syria 4 mil(0,6 mil Greeks-1 mil hellenised local mix)
Egypt 4,5 mil(0,5+ mil Greeks 0,8 hellenised local mix)
Italy 3 mil(0,4+ mil Greeks)
Sicily 0,7 mil
Iberia 3 mil(0.4 Greeks-0,3 hellenised local mix)
North Gaul 3,2mil(0,4 hellenized Gauls)
North Balkans 2 mil
South Gaul 2,6 mil(0,8+ mil Greeks- 1,2 mil hellenised Gauls)
Persia/Bactria)central asia 25+ mil(0,5+ mil Greeks- 2.3 hellenised local mix)
India 45+ Mil( 0,1 Greeks ,0,2 hellenised Indians)
Bosporus kingdom 0,2 Greeks -0,1 hellenised local mix)
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Skallagrim
Banned
200 BC (one hundred years of this ATL! hurray! I made a map frenzy to celebrate it!
This post is a thing of beauty.
It's interesting how the settlements in Africa allow for far more opportunities than those in northern Europe. With this development in the west, and the Ptolemaic potential to expand along the coast of Africa in the east, this timeline might see African states that have a sizable head start on those in northern Europe (even with the Massaliote influence there).
Maybe it's wishful thinking, but the idea of African states that are among the most developed in the world - ahead of northern Europe - is so very rare even on this site that I'd just love to see something like that. The potential is there, for sure.
If the Massaliot League treats Rome the same way Rome treated Carthage in OTL, this means bye-bye for Rome.
Thanks my friend! I posted in the same update some extra rough stats about populations. Hope you like it
Thank you very much! I also enjoy your comments a lot!
I am definitely going to explore this scenario!
You are right! But will they do the same?
Part of the reason Rome was so brutal to Carthage in OTL was because of how close Hannibal brought them to destruction in the Second Punic War.
The Punic-Latin War was dangerous for Massalia, but not quite as much as the Second Punic War was for Rome. That and Massalia's emphasis on economic gain leads me to believe that the Massalian defeat of Rome will be less cruel than the Roman defeat of Carthage because they'd want to keep the city of Rome as a profitable center.
The Punic-Latin War was dangerous for Massalia, but not quite as much as the Second Punic War was for Rome. That and Massalia's emphasis on economic gain leads me to believe that the Massalian defeat of Rome will be less cruel than the Roman defeat of Carthage because they'd want to keep the city of Rome as a profitable center.
True. The league in west Africa found her own little America. No wonder, the Focus of the Massaliot league will sure turn over there. After all the league is in its core a Thalassocrasy and trade nation. So they maybe not even bother, although the leagues Greeks in Megale Hellas might be more aggressive about this.
Hecatee
Donor
I'm surprised Athens has not founded its own university by now, seeing how they always tought of themselves as the school of Greece and how the idea of such institutions is more widespread. The very practical romans would also, in my opinion, implement one despite their misgivings about philosophy, actually going one with even more of a focus on raw tech than the others because they would discourage the more philosophical/theoretical side of things...
I got a feeling that soon Massalia will want to expend north and link at least its gallic colonies with its territories, if only to be able to use more freely rivers such as the Rhone and the Rhine, with maybe even canals between rivers (because, as far as engineering goes, that might seem a worthy investment the next time they have a lot of slaves. A Garonne/Atlantic-Mediterranean sea canal for instance, like the OTL XVIIth century canal du midi... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_du_Midi) ?
I got a feeling that soon Massalia will want to expend north and link at least its gallic colonies with its territories, if only to be able to use more freely rivers such as the Rhone and the Rhine, with maybe even canals between rivers (because, as far as engineering goes, that might seem a worthy investment the next time they have a lot of slaves. A Garonne/Atlantic-Mediterranean sea canal for instance, like the OTL XVIIth century canal du midi... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_du_Midi) ?
Well, Carthage is still needed to fully control the Western Mediterranean trade routes.
They control all of north India, they are the only trade link between China and the rest of the world thus in control of the silk road. They have a vast urbanised empire.
Even n OTL the Grecp-Bactrians were rich, here is a fast copy paste from Wiki:
The new kingdom, highly urbanized and considered as one of the richest of the Orient (opulentissimum illud mille urbium Bactrianum imperium "The extremely prosperous Bactrian empire of the thousand cities" Justin, XLI,1 [8]), was to further grow in power and engage into territorial expansion to the east and the west:The Greeks who caused Bactria to revolt grew so powerful on account of the fertility of the country that they became masters, not only of Ariana, but also of India, as Apollodorus of Artemita says: and more tribes were subdued by them than by Alexander...
But since you have doubts about my list, i would love to hear whats your top5 richest nations of this ATL
. Basically every one that wants to put his own top 5 list, would be more than welcomed.
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Yes Athens in this ATL and similar to the OTL receives lots of students in her schools. But a museum/university is something really expensive and Athens cant afford it for now.(maybe a small version in some years?). Besides Athens is again independent for only a short time.
Not sure about that. They basically control the region through economy with several vassals and allies in the area. But you newer really know.
Nice idea.
Carthage is a regional player by now. They dont have a navy(basically few warships to repel rebels), they pay tribute to the league and have to ask permission t from them to raise an army. Plus pillars of Hercules are only open for the league merchants.
True but conquering Carthage directly gives the Massalians more control over the regulations of imports and exports, imposition of customs duties, and provides one of the best defensive ports in the Mediterranean.
Yes i agree. Although the league is more economic/trade oriented, Carthage could be a potential target.
Well, when I first started reading this TL I didn't imagine Portuguese Massalia (for the exploration of Africa) but it is a great idea. Carthage, if not destroyed/defeate in OTL, could have made the same path, maybe by accident, we never know. It is a great TL and, although I have school and exams, I would gladly lend my not-at-all existing expertise of this time to the writing of some small stories of first-minor-then-major players of the time, for example. Volunteer #1
Skallagrim
Banned
But since you have doubts about my list, i would love to hear whats your top5 richest nations of this ATL
Wel... comparing the wealth/trade density map to the territories controlled by various states, I'd say that the Diodotian Empire might be about to become the richest state, but only now that it has captured northern India. Still, it'll be a very close run thing with... the Seleucid Empire. You have them at nr. 4, but they control both Mesopotamia and the region around Antioch: two of the richest areas in the world (both in OTL and in this TL). If I were to guess, I'd say the Seleucids are number one, but are about to be edged out by the Diodotian Empire (which profits from the Silk Road the most, and is about to profit from having super-wealthy northern India).
The Ptolemaic Empire is number 3 by my estimate. If they can provide a better route for trade than the Seleucids (as I have mentioned before), they can start to expand and edge out the Seleucids, becoming number 2. Capturing Antioch and depriving the Seleucids of their Med coastline can help then additionally.
The Massaliot League is likely number 4, but that's close-run with the Samprati Empire. Unless the Samprati Empire suddenly becomes wealthier for some reason, the difference between them will increase, because west African trade is the key factor here. Without it, Massalia would be number 5 on the list, but since it is only growing and growing, that trade will make Massalia richer and richer.
So, if we assume a situation where the Diodotian Empire has just overtaken the Seleucids...
1. Diodotian Empire
2. Seleucid Empire
3. Ptolemaic Empire
4. Massaliot League
5. Samprati Empire
EDIT: some further notes.
Number 6 is almost certainly Satavahana.
Number 7 is almost certainly Pergamum.
Number 8 probably Carthage, but Carthage is a dwindling power now that it has no real navy left and Massalia controls basically all trade. Perhaps the Carthaginians are their allies, the Garamantes, to exploit trans-Saharan trade with the Soninke and the Nok Kingdom? That might be one way to stay standing... but Carthage is still declining, no matter what.
Number 9 is probably Sparta, which has done well for itself. If the Sparta-Athens military alliance is counted as a whole, that's maybe even number 8, and certainly in position for number 9.
Number 10 (if not number 9, just ahead of Sparta) would be the Bosporus Kingdom. They are on the rise, and if they keep it up, I can see them advancing a place or two in the coming decades.
Number 11 would be the Chola Kingdom.
Number 12 would be Macedonia.
Number 13 would be Athens (if counted separately from Sparta).
Number 14 would be Rhodes.
Number 15 is very hard, because it's either Rome (already established) or Eschate (fledgling, but with much more potential). I'd say it's currently Rome, but soon to be Eschate... and Eschate has the potential to rise very rapidly.
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