They control all of north India, they are the only trade link between China and the rest of the world thus in control of the silk road. They have a vast urbanised empire.
Even n OTL the Grecp-Bactrians were rich, here is a fast copy paste from Wiki:
The new kingdom, highly urbanized and considered as one of the richest of the Orient (opulentissimum illud mille urbium Bactrianum imperium "The extremely prosperous Bactrian empire of the thousand cities" Justin, XLI,1 [8]), was to further grow in power and engage into territorial expansion to the east and the west:The Greeks who caused Bactria to revolt grew so powerful on account of the fertility of the country that they became masters, not only of Ariana, but also of India, as Apollodorus of Artemita says: and more tribes were subdued by them than by Alexander...

But since you have doubts about my list, i would love to hear whats your top5 richest nations of this ATL :). Basically every one that wants to put his own top 5 list, would be more than welcomed.

Thanks for your reply. I basically have no idea. For me as a eurocentric Chinese the diocotian empire sounds like somewhere in the middle of nowhere backwater (not in europe/ roman empire area, persia, china) I would think the seluccid to be the wealthiest place, probably out of my ignorance.
 
Wel... comparing the wealth/trade density map to the territories controlled by various states, I'd say that the Diodotian Empire might be about to become the richest state, but only now that it has captured northern India. Still, it'll be a very close run thing with... the Seleucid Empire. You have them at nr. 4, but they control both Mesopotamia and the region around Antioch: two of the richest areas in the world (both in OTL and in this TL). If I were to guess, I'd say the Seleucids are number one, but are about to be edged out by the Diodotian Empire (which profits from the Silk Road the most, and is about to profit from having super-wealthy northern India).

Yes you can say that Diodotian empire just become the richest state. You are most than right about Seleucids. In my estimation i forgot that they now control Syria.

So i agree with your list:

1. Diodotian Empire
2. Seleucid Empire
3. Ptolemaic Empire
4. Massaliot League
5. Samprati Empire

The Ptolemaic Empire is number 3 by my estimate. If they can provide a better route for trade than the Seleucids (as I have mentioned before), they can start to expand and edge out the Seleucids, becoming number 2. Capturing Antioch and depriving the Seleucids of their Med coastline can help then additionally.

They do trade with India but as you say, the one that controls Syria is always on the top between the two of them.

The Massaliot League is likely number 4, but that's close-run with the Samprati Empire. Unless the Samprati Empire suddenly becomes wealthier for some reason, the difference between them will increase, because west African trade is the key factor here. Without it, Massalia would be number 5 on the list, but since it is only growing and growing, that trade will make Massalia richer and richer.

Yes you can say its kind of close but besides Africa the league also controls Sicily and south Italy that also boosted her economy.

Number 6 is almost certainly Satavahana.

Number 7 is almost certainly Pergamum.
same for my list.
About the rest of your list i have to think about it.
 
...
They do trade with India but as you say, the one that controls Syria is always on the top between the two of them...

Now why is that? For Far Eastern goods to get to the Mediterranean market, they would have to come over land a long way to get to Antioch for sale.

To get to Alexandria at this point, starting in western/southern Indian docks, they come by sea up the Red Sea, where they can be supplemented by a number of the valuable goods that are produced in southern Arabia, and thence by short overland portage or indeed by the revived Nile-Red Sea canal by barge to the queen city of the Mediterranean world, where they are offered in trade alongside Egyptian goods such as grain, and the craft produce of populous and technically developed Egypt as well.

Now I suppose to some extent I am dialectically answering my own question! While some exotic Eastern goods include Egyptian spices and Indian products, others include Chinese goods such as silks, and they are apparently not being traded by sea to India. A glance at the map shows that if they were, they'd have a long long voyage through chancy seas, past Southeast Asian and Indonesian ports before even a fraction of them could be offered to Ptolemaic traders. In fact in this era what Chinese goods move out of China tend to either be traded pretty locally, to other nations more or less in the Sinosphere on the Pacific, or else go west overland along the "Silk Road." Seen that way, Diodotian wealth is high because they get first crack at it, and are the last major craft/exotic Western goods emporium going east--the silver and other precious metals and jewels that pay for whatever the Chinese will sell only for that after buying a smattering of western goods filter through there as well and presumably some stick to their central Asian fingers. But Diodotia is not really in much of a position to buy all the Chinese exports for their own use; they must serve as middlemen for the Seleucids, who with Antioch can most directly port Chinese goods to the Med and Western goods along with basically money eastward over the shortest land route. I suppose what moves past Diodotian borders makes for the upper river courses of the streams feeding Mesopotamia; not an inconsiderable amount of them branch south to be ultimately sold for use there--Mesopotamian productivity, like Egyptian, could in itself produce substantial surpluses in the primary goods of grain and other foodstuffs, and also support an elaborately developed craft industry that also produces exportable goods. There of course was the capital Seleucia. The rest continue to make their way west, probably assisted by navigable streams (at least navigable on a scale supporting the low-weight, high value goods that filtered so far west overland through Central Asia) thence to Antioch. Also they would be joined by Arabian products brought overland through desert routes carefully monopolized by certain peoples (I believe a northern Arab branch, possibly Aramaic) whom I have mentioned before.

Thus for Alexandria to compete in those goods, the traders must either tap in to the Silk Route somewhere, or encourage an alternate coastwise trade that I suppose hardly exists at this point, at least not to connect Indian ports with Chinese ones all the way, even through intermediaries. I'd have to check on the status of Indochinese and Indonesian trade cultures at this point, but I suspect these did not really develop until many many centuries hence--and even if they did, it is not clear, across such a long convoluted sea route with so many potential middlemen and pirates lying along the way, that it would be strongly competitive in any way with the established northern and shorter overland route. I believe sea travel is generally orders of magnitude better, in terms of tons per mile per unit of human labor to move it, but that may depend very much on details. The Mediterranean is a relatively calm and enclosed body of water; I'm told there is no point in it, or anyway very few and easily avoided regions, where one cannot see some sign of land on a clear day, so navigation is also especially easy there. If winds do not serve, contrary ones and currents are rarely such that rowing will not get one where one needs to go. Not so, obviously, the Atlantic or the Indian ocean! The waters of Indonesia I am not so sure of but anyway I believe the winds there would be stronger and more apt to be surprisingly contrary than on the Med (or Red Sea)--at least there, some kind of landfall wouldn't be too hard to find, but one might well regret it with aggressive native peoples who might prove very hard or impossible to buy off and more than capable of overwhelming even a large and well-defended vessel. From there one is on the home stretch at least to South China, but in this era I think the southern tier of modern China is outside the Empire; one has to push on to the Yellow River ports. This home stretch, however long or short, is again basically open Pacific, a little bit sheltered but still a rough stormy sea.

So multipliers that are valid for the Mediterranean might not be nearly as good for this long haul from the mouth of the Red Sea to Chinese ports.

At this point anyway, even the great scholar Eratosthenes has scarcely even heard the rumor of China, if we can take this map (a 19th century reproduction, attributed to knowledge circa 194 BCE, or six years after our current TL date) as representative of his work. Note how "Taprobane," nowadays known as Sri Lanka, is on the southeast corner and the coast north and east of it is that of eastern India--basically the mouth of the Ganges meeting up with someplace in Kazakstan around the tip of a mountain range representing the Himalayas is the far east of the world as far as he could guess. Not only is China absent, so is IndoChina and Indonesia as well!

Now ITTL he might know a bit more and there might be some fragment of Burma or even Cambodia, maybe with a chain of exotic spice islands lying off to their east, in his final edition of Geography and possible maps. He might even skew the salient southward in line with far-ranging Hellenic expeditions taking due note of the position of the Sun, though they'd have to stay long or visit frequently to confirm it oscillates back and forth evenly about the zenith and therefore lies in the Torrid Zone. This might encourage him to put in some speculative ágnosto édaphos in the northeast corner. And more aggressive Ptolemaics in Indian ports might have heard tell of far China earlier than Classical Mediterranean origin traders did OTL, giving him something to scrawl in there.

Since it is evident now how and why Antioch might not only equal Alexandria but does in fact surpass it, if not as a city in size than anyway in importance to the Mediterranean markets, I do wish someone had corrected my earlier mistaken assumption Alexandria must be the leading emporium of eastern goods! It is plain now that although by developing demand for Indian and perhaps east African goods it can grow to match the Seleucid port, it cannot supplant it, because Chinese goods will continue to be available only on the Silk Road. Even if Alexandria sends a large and ambitious expedition eastward past Taprobane to scout out the far reaches of east Asia, and this expedition manages to complete its mission by finding Chinese ports, get out of them without being detained, and send at least some remnant all the way back to familiar Indian ports again (a project liable to consume years and essentially swallow up every drachma invested with no immediate return if it can succeed at all) the Ptolemaics still have no likelihood of matching Silk Road deliveries for generations to come. The hazards along the way (offset by other opportunities such as Indonesian spices to be sure, if in fact these are cultivated in marketable form yet--their status is as up in the air as coffee would be), the sheer distance involved, and the possibility that the Chinese will simply refuse to trade with these supplicant sea barbarians if they manage to show up at all all tell against it. At any rate, it is more likely over later generations when and if intermediate markets form allowing sufficient Hellenic projection to guard their ships.

Thus I need to reevaluate my recent enthusiastic notion that Ptolemies can profit by taking Antioch. It was always plain this would be largely a negative accomplishment, at considerable cost, but I did believe that Alexandria would profit by concentrating all Eastern trade in its hands and that overall the volumes reaching Mediterranean markets would remain the same. In fact, Antioch and northern Syria and southeast, perhaps all of Eastern, Anatolia would all suffer, along with the northern desert Semitic trading kingdom, and the Egyptians would little profit nor find any gratitude as they would basically cut off a portion of the existing Eastern trade to no one's benefit. If the Seleucids could not simply punch back west to the Med, finding themselves welcome for doing so by all locals and thus presumably getting their help in the project, they can always shrug and simply pocket the entire Silk Road output themselves in Mesopotamia, losing little by being cut off from Mediterranean products since Mesopotamian and other Seleucid territories and products can probably suffice for their own needs and for trading with Diodotia.

Meanwhile the Diodotians, if not perfectly satisfied to go on trading with Seleucia, can branch north around the Caspian or across it, and create or tap into caravans going to the Black Sea, where the Bosphorian Kingdom or some other Black Sea power can ship the goods on west to Hellenic markets along that sea and through the straits to Greece itself. In suppressing the Seleucid port, they may deal their rival an annoying blow, but the Ptolemaics still will not capture the trade in Chinese goods that will merely be diverted somewhat northward. It cannot come south into Ptolemaic hands without either the Seleucids permitting it to for profit of their own, or the Egyptians leveling up to the point where they can conquer essentially all of Seleucia! It would not strictly be necessary to conquer Iran; perhaps that could be left to the Diodotians to deal with. But the project of attacking the Seleucid link to Mediterranean trade looks far less reasonably likely to bring the Ptolemies any gain they can realize worth the clearly high cost.

Neither power is bound to consider what is wisest or best for world development of course. Both might be too consumed with the chimera of exterminating the other major claimant to Alexander's legacy to consider the balance sheet carefully enough. i've got little enough sympathy for the Seleucids to be sure. But I can better see now what their basis is, and rather hope the Egyptians focus their ambitions elsewhere lest the Ptolemaic dynasty waste its assets on a losing game they might find themselves trapped in by prestige.
 
199 BC/ The formation of Melas aspis.
199 BC

Although Rome raised an army to crush the Samnite rebellion, the League council decided not intervene. The expansion in West Africa continued to be the main focus.

Macedonia
  • King Dimitrios of Macedon made Thessaloniki his new capital and establish a new alliance with Pergamon and Bosporus kingdoms.
Ptolemaic empire

Although Ptolemy III knew that native Egyptians were needed for his army, the recent rebellions of the native population made him skeptical about this practice and kind of alienate him from the local population. The solution to this issue came from the Spartan mercenary general Cleobrotus who proposed a rather radical idea.


The formation of the Melas aspis( black shields).


The formation of the Melas aspis established in the reign of Ptolemy III in 199 BC. Ptolemy III instituted the Melas foros. Melas foros also know as aima foros(blood tax or tribute in blood), was chiefly the annual practice whereby the Ptolemaic Empire sent military officers to take boys, ages 7 to 10, from their families in order that they be raised to serve the state.This tax of sons was imposed only on the local Egyptian subjects of the empire, in the villages of the upper Egypt. The boys were then forcibly converted to a sect of the Serapis religion with the primary objective of selecting and training the ablest children and teenagers for the military or civil service of the empire, notably into the melas aspis(black shields).
The melas aspis were, neither freemen nor slaves. They were subjected to strict discipline, but were paid salaries and pensions upon retirement and formed their own distinctive social class.

Melas aspis agoge

The training involved learning about hellenistic culture, cultivating loyalty to the Ptolemaic king, military training, hunting and social/religion affairs. The aim of the system was to produce a loyal,strong and capable warrior to serve in the melas aspis/Ptolemaic army. Discipline was strict and the males were encouraged to fight amongst themselves to determine the strongest member of the group. At the age of seven, the male child was enrolled in the melas aspis agoge under the authority of the paidonómos , or "boy-herder", a magistrate charged with supervising education. This began the first of the three stages of the melas aspic agoge: the paídes ( ages 7–17), the paidískoi (ages 16–19), and the hēbōntes (ages 20–29).
At the stage of paidiskoi, around the age of 18, the students became members of the melas aspis army. Also, some youths were allowed to become part of the crypteia, a type of 'Secret Police', where the members were instructed to spy on the upper Egypt native population and even kill natives who were out at night or spoke seditiously, to help keep the population submissive.
Between 199-197 BC ten thousands kids were transferred in the melas aspis camp near Alexandria.

DKIjepI.jpg

Black shield, city patrol troop 160 BC.
 
The Black Shields - you aren't trying evoke anything at all are you @Sersor

Those shields would have to cost a bomb though, black dye, or ebony panelling, costs a lot of money! Probably worth it for the fear/intimidation/recognition factor though.

I both look forward to, and dread, the idea of the Black Shields lasting till lamellar armour is common - field troops and cavalry dressed head to toe in black armour would look BAD-ASS
 
The Black Shields - you aren't trying evoke anything at all are you @Sersor
:D

Those shields would have to cost a bomb though, black dye, or ebony panelling, costs a lot of money! Probably worth it for the fear/intimidation/recognition factor though
Black dye wasn't the most expensive dye (like purpe for example).

I both look forward to, and dread, the idea of the Black Shields lasting till lamellar armour is common - field troops and cavalry dressed head to toe in black armour would look BAD-ASS
Yes that sounds really cool.
 
198 BC
198 BC

Anastasios, governor of Ypernoteia and prominent member of the Palaioi company, convinced the Palaioi company council to make a military expedition south east from Mesopotamos to conquer the big gold mines in the region(now under Soninke control)
  • More than 10000 Greek/Gauls settlers went to west Africa.
By place:

Asia Minor
  • Eumenes II becomes King of Pergamum following the death of his father Attalus I Soter.
Carthage

Because of his administrative and constitutional reforms in Carthage,Hannibal becomes unpopular with an important faction of the Carthaginian nobility and he is denounced to the League for inciting the Romans to join him and take up arms against the League. The league demands that Carthage surrender Hannibal. However, Hannibal voluntarily goes once again into exile.He journeyed to Tyre, the mother city of Carthage, and then to Antioch, where he was honourably received by Antiochus III of Seleucid empire.

Ptolemaic empire/Seleucid empire

With Ptolemy IV having internal issues to deal and Antichous III fearing the rumours of an invasion from the Diodotian empire a new peace agreement is singed between Ptolemaic empire and Seleucid empire. The agreement is concluded with the marriage of Antiochus III to Ptolemy IV sister, Cleopatra. Antiochus divorces his previous wife, Amalthea.

Sri Lanka
  • Agathocles king of the Eschatians, to strengthen his power in Sri Lanka, marries the daughter of Bindushuka, the king of the Ruhuna kingdom.
 
Yeah, with luck Hannibal can launch an expedition with Seleucid backing.
Antiochus III will use Hannibal as a general for sure. I am not sure if can convince Antiochus to attack the League. With the stability in relations with Ptolemaic empire, Antiochus main problem/concern is Diodotian empire.
 
Very nice TL; Hellenic peoples just seem to be continually expansing with no end in sight. I wonder what's next?

The Diodotians could expand along the Ganges and into Indochina; in the other direction they could maybe expand from Bactria along the silk road into China?

The Massaliots: increasingly Atlantic-focused. Sooner or later I wouldn't be surprised if the capital gets moved to an Atlantic port, e.g. Naucratia, Tagus, or Kassatia. Founding of colonies in West Africa and Northern Europe will slowly continue; they might circumnavigate Africa at some point. On the other hand, the Americas will have to probably wait a few more centuries because of the boats not being good enough to cross such large spans of water.

Eschatia: if they take over all of Sri Lanka they might become pretty powerful.

Bosporus: the open plains make it difficult to expand into *Ukraine.

Ptolemaic Egypt: down the Nile into sub-Saharan Africa and/or down the East African coast?


Now I have a question: why are Massaliot city names being duplicated? As far as I can see, there is an Orestiko in *Portugal and another in Ireland; there's an Atalantia in the Basque Country and another in Brittania. Was this intentional or not?

And a final thought. Will Jesus be born ITTL?
 
Very nice TL

Thank you!

Now I have a question: why are Massaliot city names being duplicated? As far as I can see, there is an Orestiko in *Portugal and another in Ireland; there's an Atalantia in the Basque Country and another in Brittania. Was this intentional or not?

It was not intentional but even OTL there were cties with the same name.

PS: sorry for the slow progress of the ATL. I am working on some ideas but the universe of this ATL is huge and that takes time. Its not anymore only about Massaliot league.
 
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