The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline

[Sersor]

So would it be a stretch to say that most of the Massalian population are just Gauls who think that they are actually Greeks?

The population in Massalia and the sea line cities is almost completely of Greek origin. In the ex celto-ligurians towns and in the ex Vocontii areas Greeks are the majority. In ex Volcae lands and Aquitani the greeks are small minority exept Tolosa where are the majority. What you propose is the most likely thing to happen if Massaliot League continue to prosper and expand.

Ps: dont forget the 295-293 BC Greek settlers wave from Magna Graecia.

 

[Sersor]

Although, if they can use the technology and build upon it to make Galley-Sized ships, we could see the Massalians become more able at sea than the Carthaginians - and that would really change the game. It would most likely lead to a war for control of the Pillars of Hercules, and I don't know if the Massalians can afford the same standing armies alongside mercenary armies to match Carthage, at least not until they boost their trade in the eastern med.

I am thinking more the less the same! Veneti will do the trick with the Galley sized ships

Ignoring the Atlantic Vessels - Is there anywhere in the eastern med where they could realistically get access to land for a proper colony? Crete would be amazing, Rhodes would certainly be a useful island to control. If Rome goes East - then the Massalians may benefit from providing naval support. Not only does it create a dependency by the Romans on a Massalian fleet, which would benefit Massalian security, but ensuring Massalian troops are only lost in the capture of islands means a relatively low manpower cost war, to get a major naval base to rival the Carthaginians. The possibilities that provides for political gains in the east are huge.

Really nice ideas! Crete sounds great. Massaliot League needs a base to strengthen the trade with Ptolemaic Egypt. But the Punic wars are close by. Carthage,Rome and Massaliot League future depends on the first Punic war.

 

[WotanArgead]

Hellenes in Jutland. It sounds interesting.
What's next!? Trading positions in the Baltic Sea and the first mention of the Balto-Slavs?

 

[darthfanta]

Seems like the Massaliot league has turned into Venice on steroids.It's becoming both a continental power and a thalassocracy.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

I've realised something, Massalia is going to be pretty invested in developing a more urban western europe IMO than Rome, being a trade power based on the west coast. Otherwise it risks just exporting goods to the richer east. Sadly I don't think there were any great economists in this period, so we can only really hope on the continued expansion of the Massalian trade network to "extend the silk road west", for lack of better terminology. So the Baltics, and with Veneti ships, perhaps a tentative approach to sub-saharan africa? Otherwise the Massalians are going to need to develop some sort of resource that the Romans never did to prevent the outflow of money to the East.

I understand that the Roman Empire is considered to have stagnated and not exploited its resources, or technologies because of their huge slave plantations - does Massalia have anything similar, or are we looking at a very different form of economy?

 

[Artaxerxes]

I've realised something, Massalia is going to be pretty invested in developing a more urban western europe IMO than Rome, being a trade power based on the west coast. Otherwise it risks just exporting goods to the richer east. Sadly I don't think there were any great economists in this period, so we can only really hope on the continued expansion of the Massalian trade network to "extend the silk road west", for lack of better terminology. So the Baltics, and with Veneti ships, perhaps a tentative approach to sub-saharan africa? Otherwise the Massalians are going to need to develop some sort of resource that the Romans never did to prevent the outflow of money to the East.

I understand that the Roman Empire is considered to have stagnated and not exploited its resources, or technologies because of their huge slave plantations - does Massalia have anything similar, or are we looking at a very different form of economy?

There would still be a strongly focussed Slave economy but its based more on trade than going out and looting the goods (though I'm sure that can change)

Really for a viable economy to take off you need to encourage more urbanisation and while Gaul was better than the Britain for having the seeds of that you need to encourage a reason for that to happen. The Romans did that via conquest, moving populations around and founding colonies, but when they left many of those urban centres saw a decline and fall back as people went back to farming because they saw no reason to live in cities.

More population growth, more encouragement for local trade and craftsmanship might help kick towns and cities in Britain sooner than the Viking age.

Not sure how well this Greek dominated Gaul will survive the migrations into it, there could be a lot of disruption and conquest similar to China and its cycle of Nomadic/Pastoral conquerors > elites > conquered by the new Nomads

And then theres Rome...

Good tl, subbed.

 

[darthfanta]

There's good wine in Gaul for sure.Massalia is either already sitting on excellent wine regions or are extremely close to them.

 

[Sersor]

Hellenes in Jutland. It sounds interesting.
What's next!? Trading positions in the Baltic Sea and the first mention of the Balto-Slavs?

Pytheas claimed to have explored the entire north. However, he propably turned back at the mouth of the Vistula in the Baltic sea. So Greeks new about this rich in amber area. An expedition of the area is in the plans of Adelphius.

 

[Sersor]

Seems like the Massaliot league has turned into Venice on steroids.It's becoming both a continental power and a thalassocracy.

Yes kind of. The formation of the Massaliot League helped the Greeks of the area to unite and rise in power. The adoption of the Roman warfare style,the control of Rhone river trade,the slave markets,the gold mines and the wealth that found in Tolosa boosted them a lot. Massalia’s rise in power is similar to the fast expansion of Rome in the 3rd century BC.

 

[Hecatee]

Yes kind of. The formation of the Massaliot League helped the Greeks of the area to unite and rise in power. The adoption of the Roman warfare style,the control of Rhone river trade,the slave markets,the gold mines and the wealth that found in Tolosa boosted them a lot. Massalia’s rise in power is similar to the fast expansion of Rome in the 3rd century BC.

Except that they don't have the manpower base of Rome... Should the Romans skip on the Carthaginians and go for Gauls and Massaliotes first, the city could be in a world of trouble. Actually I could even see a romano-cartaginian alliance against Massalia, the ones looking at trade and Iberia, the others at Cisalpine and eventually transalpine Gaul...

 

[Sersor]

I've realised something, Massalia is going to be pretty invested in developing a more urban western europe IMO than Rome, being a trade power based on the west coast. Otherwise it risks just exporting goods to the richer east. Sadly I don't think there were any great economists in this period, so we can only really hope on the continued expansion of the Massalian trade network to "extend the silk road west", for lack of better terminology. So the Baltics, and with Veneti ships, perhaps a tentative approach to sub-saharan africa? Otherwise the Massalians are going to need to develop some sort of resource that the Romans never did to prevent the outflow of money to the East.

You are right, these are some serious issues that Massalia has to deal with.I have some ideas for the next twenty years of my timeline but not sure yet. Sub saharan Africa sound interesting but Carthage is in the middle.

I understand that the Roman Empire is considered to have stagnated and not exploited its resources, or technologies because of their huge slave plantations - does Massalia have anything similar, or are we looking at a very different form of economy?

Yes in Massalia they have slaves. I mention a big slave market builded in 296 BC. But the economy is more trade and gold mines focused. Besides we speak about the 3rd century BC, an age of wonders and great technological breakthroughs by the Greeks. Massalia in 277 BC is with Alexandria the leading places in science.

 

[Sersor]

There would still be a strongly focussed Slave economy but its based more on trade than going out and looting the goods (though I'm sure that can change)

Exactly.
from a previous quote : Yes in Massalia they have slaves. I mention a big slave market builded in 296 BC. But the economy is more trade and gold mines focused.

Really for a viable economy to take off you need to encourage more urbanisation and while Gaul was better than the Britain for having the seeds of that you need to encourage a reason for that to happen. The Romans did that via conquest, moving populations around and founding colonies, but when they left many of those urban centres saw a decline and fall back as people went back to farming because they saw no reason to live in cities.

More population growth, more encouragement for local trade and craftsmanship might help kick towns and cities in Britain sooner than the Viking age.

Good points i have some nice ideas about that but i don’t want to spoil the timeline

Not sure how well this Greek dominated Gaul will survive the migrations into it, there could be a lot of disruption and conquest similar to China and its cycle of Nomadic/Pastoral conquerors > elites > conquered by the new Nomads

And then theres Rome...

Lets see what will happen!

 

[Sersor]

There's good wine in Gaul for sure.Massalia is either already sitting on excellent wine regions or are extremely close to them.

Massalia traded wine with Gauls from at least 4th century bc

 

[Sersor]

Except that they don't have the manpower base of Rome...

Yes the manpower of Rome was a big factor for their success. But Massaliot league manpower isn’t the same with 300 BC. The 295-293 BC Greek settlers wave from Magna Graecia helped boost the population and especially after the conquest of Tolosa there is a small but steady flow of settlers every year. Ofc i don’t compare it with Rome but its not a monstrous difference.

Should the Romans skip on the Carthaginians and go for Gauls and Massaliotes first, the city could be in a world of trouble. Actually I could even see a romano-cartaginian alliance against Massalia, the ones looking at trade and Iberia, the others at Cisalpine and eventually transalpine Gaul...

The rise in power of Massalia will certainly catch the eye of Rome and Carthage. But until now the Massaliot League with the inland expansion through Gaul/Aquatani territory didn’t affect heavily the current status quo of west Mediterranean sea. The newly expansion in Atlantic ocean will sure affect the relations in the next years with Carthage and probably the Venetii tribe. Nevertheless the major conflict reason in west mediterranean sea, is for the control of Sicily. So i think its more possible to have a repeat of the first Punic war than an attack against Massalia. Besides at the moment both Rome and Carthage try to deal with Pyrrhus of Epirus.

Ps: Still what you propose its a possibility.

 

[Historyman 14]

Does the Massaliot league have any great and all mightly Temples or anything like that? Anything that can stand the test of time in some way?

 

[Sersor]

276 BC

The Aquitani lands are officially annexed by the Massaliot League with the exception of Ausci tribe. Ausci are now a vassal of the Massaliot league. A new city, Therma, was founded in modern day Dax to control the area of Aquitaini tribes. Therma was founded around the source of hot water and the presence of hot water was really appreciated from the Greeks. Hot bathing was considered an extremely healthy and refreshing experience in ancient Greece.

• A new gymnasium is built in Therma by the palaioi company.

By place
Egypt

• The first of the Syrian Wars starts between Egypt's Ptolemy II and Seleucid emperor Antiochus I Soter. The Egyptians invade northern Syria, but Antiochus defeats and repels his opponent's army.

Sicily

• Pyrrhus negotiates with the Carthaginians to end the fighting between them in Sicily. The Carthaginians are inclined to come to terms with Pyrrhus, but he demands that Carthage abandon all of Sicily and make the Libyan Sea the boundary between Carthage and the Greeks. Meanwhile, he begins to display despotic behaviour towards the Sicilian Greeks and soon Sicilian opinion moves against him. Therefore, fearing that his successes in Sicily may lead him to become the despot of their country, the Syracusans ask Pyrrhus to leave Sicily. He does so, and returns to the Italian mainland, noting that he expects Sicily to be a "fair wrestling ring" for Carthage and Rome.

 

[Sersor]

Does the Massaliot league have any great and all mightly Temples or anything like that? Anything that can stand the test of time in some way?

The most important building so far, is the museum and the buildings that builded in 283 BC and a glorious Temple of Athena that builded in 297 BC
No wonders of the world like the pharos of Alexandria. Nice idea a wonder of the world

Check:

283 BC

With part of the gold from the sanctuary in Tolosa(Poseidonius version) the famous architect Xenarius is invited to Massalia to plan a massive expansion of the city. A new orthogonal grid sector is build. This conclude a new big theater with a seating capacity of nine thousands, a new gymnasium, a new arsenal, a naval arsenal and most important of all a huge mouseio*. This massive campus of more than ten buildings was second only to Alexandria’s mouseio. The Massalia mouseio was the home of music/poetry, a philosophical school and library, it did have a room devoted to the study of anatomy,geography,mathematics,philosophy and an installation for astronomical observations. It also worked close with the arsenal of the city. The mouseio featured a roofed walkway, an arcade of seats and a communal dining room where scholars routinely ate and shared ideas. The campus was also filled with private study rooms, residential quarters, lecture halls. More than two hundred scholars invited to lived in the mouseio. Staff members and scholars were salaried by the mouseio and paid no taxes. They also received free meals, free room and board, and free servants.

* Mouseio(museum) were institutes (universities) and the latest trend for influence, power and knowledge in the Hellenistic era.

 

[Commando Howiezter]

Watched with interest!

Would there be a specific POD for this TL?...

Also it would be interesting for butterflies to start flapping and change say, the Phyrric Wars or Punic Wars....

Or even Diadochi?...

 

[Sersor]

Watched with interest!

Would there be a specific POD for this TL?...

Also it would be interesting for butterflies to start flapping and change say, the Phyrric Wars or Punic Wars....

Or even Diadochi?...

Thank you Commando Howiezter!

The butterflies will start flapping more aggressive soon.

What is POD? I am new here.

PS : I am big fan of Diadochi so ill definitely mess with it.

 

[Commando Howiezter]

Thank you Commando Howiezter!

The butterflies will start flapping more aggressive soon.

What is POD? I am new here.

No problem, it takes a lot of effort to write a TL, and there are few Classical ones on here, so a good read is always enjoyed.

I am Looking forward to it.

A POD, or Point Of Divergence, is when a TL diverges away from OTL, or Our Time Line. So, the specific point in time when things for the Massalians changes from history as we know it for example in your TL.