So basically,there's a strip of no man's land between the Massaliot League and Naucratia?
You have to fight the Santones who are allies?
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The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline
- Thread starter Sersor
- Start date
Yeap true, If you go from Tolosa (Toulouse) to the Garrone and then just follow the Garrone to its estuary on the Atlantic, there you are, Bordeaux. But Bordeaux in historical times, around 300 BCE it was a remote(from their core) settlement of the big Gaul tribe, the Bituriges Vivisci, who named the town Burdigala, probably of Aquitanian origin. The name Bourde is still the name of a river south of the city. Also The Bituruges where allies with the Santones tribe and in general the area north from Garonne river was heavy populated. So the Greeks picked the natural port in the rather empty Arcachon area.
Ps: when i write about locations i always research the OTL history of the area.
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278 BC. The North expedition.
278 BC
The North expedition (279-278 BC)
The first stop of Adelphius was in the land of Pictones were he establish a trade hub colony and exchange gifts with the local king. From there he sailed to the trade town of Corbilo of the small Namnetes tribe and in the near trade town of Gwened of the Veneti tribe(The Veneti were a seafaring people with interesting ship designs for sail in the Atlantic). After the establish of formal relations with them, Adelphius sailed from Brittany to Belerium (Land's End) in Cornwall, the southwestern tip of Britain, which was the source of valuable tin and one of the two primary reasons for this expedition. After establish a trade hub colony of one hundred people, Adelphius sailed east through the English channel between Britain and France all the way to the lands of frisii tribe where he establish another small trade hub colony. From there he reach the rich in precious amber Abalus(helgoland)island in the north sea, the other primary reason of this expedition. The small population of the island attacked the Massaliotes but the Greeks easily won the fight. A new trade hub colony of one hundred people establish. When the fortifications of the new settlement were ready, Adelphius sailed back along the coast of Europe and returned home. Along the way, he stopped at the lands of the Menapii and Moroni tribes where he made the last small trade hub colony. The expedition was a big success, Massaliot League now had direct access to highly profitable trade sources of Tin and Amber.
By place
Seleucid Empire
The North expedition (279-278 BC)
The first stop of Adelphius was in the land of Pictones were he establish a trade hub colony and exchange gifts with the local king. From there he sailed to the trade town of Corbilo of the small Namnetes tribe and in the near trade town of Gwened of the Veneti tribe(The Veneti were a seafaring people with interesting ship designs for sail in the Atlantic). After the establish of formal relations with them, Adelphius sailed from Brittany to Belerium (Land's End) in Cornwall, the southwestern tip of Britain, which was the source of valuable tin and one of the two primary reasons for this expedition. After establish a trade hub colony of one hundred people, Adelphius sailed east through the English channel between Britain and France all the way to the lands of frisii tribe where he establish another small trade hub colony. From there he reach the rich in precious amber Abalus(helgoland)island in the north sea, the other primary reason of this expedition. The small population of the island attacked the Massaliotes but the Greeks easily won the fight. A new trade hub colony of one hundred people establish. When the fortifications of the new settlement were ready, Adelphius sailed back along the coast of Europe and returned home. Along the way, he stopped at the lands of the Menapii and Moroni tribes where he made the last small trade hub colony. The expedition was a big success, Massaliot League now had direct access to highly profitable trade sources of Tin and Amber.
- Tensions between Ausci and the rest of Aquitani tribes lead to small skirmish battles. Ausci tribe ask Massaliot League for help.
By place
Seleucid Empire
- Antigonus concludes a peace with Antiochus who surrenders his claim to Macedonia. Thereafter Antigonus II's foreign policy is marked by friendship with the Seleucids.
- The Carthaginians seize an opportunity to interfere in a quarrel between Syracuse and Agrigentum and besiege Syracuse. The Syracusans ask for help from Pyrrhus and Pyrrhus transfers his army there.
- On his arrival in Sicily, Pyrrhus' forces win battles against the Carthaginians across Sicily. Pyrrhus conquers almost all of Sicily except for Lilybaeum (Marsala).
- Pyrrhus is proclaimed king of Sicily. He plans for his son Helenus to inherit the kingdom of Sicily and his other son Alexander to inherit Italy.
{I asked why not colonize the site of Bordeaux}
Very well then...but there was no indiction on your map that a settlement of any kind already did exist there. Being curious I did look up Arcachon on the internet and found that there is some mention of some ancient ruins somewhere on the bay, but by and large it seems to have been deserted for most of history, the current set of towns there going back only to the 1850s.
Since you do mark certain cities on your maps of Gaul, one has to presume when you leave an area blank, it lacks notable settlement. Therefore the site of Bordeaux seems available.
So your doing research is a good thing, but passing on the results of it by marking towns you know are there instead of implying there are none with blank stretches is where your research really pays off.
The question of just how the Massaliot traders access their offset site still remains, as overland trade even with roads is ruinously difficult, and there are no roads--I suppose! Were the Gauls actually in the habit of making roads too? And if so is there one here? If the former is true I still would doubt the latter--the whole point of the colony was I figured to create a new settlement in wilderness.
Put it this way. If taking the more convenient site of Bordeaux is an act of aggression against a Gaulish ally, then how is it not aggressive to set up a rival port and go after trade markets the Bituriges presumably trade in themselves? I made the mistake of assuming that where you show a blank is undeveloped wilderness once; now that I know there are Gaulish settlements there, I should assume that the Gauls, at a given population density anyway, pretty much do anything Greeks at such a density would do too--similar tech levels, similar levels of stone building, similar kinds of agricultural intensity, perhaps similar levels of road building to what Romans would do--therefore, similar levels of trade by river, possibly road--and sea!
In this perhaps I err as badly in the direction of figuring the Gauls are basically equal to the Greeks as the inference from the blanks on your map that there was no development there at all. Reading up on Gaul in general tends to stress the "developed" assumption more than the opposite though. Technologically it seems that large Gaulish settlements would be quite equivalent to Greek or Roman towns of the same size, and the Gauls are said to have been traders themselves.
All of which suggests that if Burdigala is a built-up town already, that it is probably in the business of sea trade as well.
The Greeks are excellent and experienced sailors--on the Mediterranean. But if the Biturgies Vivisci are sailors of any note themselves (a point Wikipedia sheds no light on) their experience is with sailing the Atlantic--a much different proposition than the Med! The Greeks, if this is their first venture onto the great ocean, are babes in the woods. The great geographer Pythias presumably had learned a thing or two about the Atlantic in his travels and passed this knowledge down to his city, but being told about the tides and other bizarre and surprising phenomena is nothing like having had lifelong experience with it, as any Burdigalan mariners would know.
Being unsure whether general Gaulish aptness to trade implies these Celts of this town are in fact sailors or not, I see two possibilities:
1) they are sailors--maybe not the greatest Celtic mariners on the Atlantic coast (the update suggests that might be the Veneti) but anyway competent enough to fish and carry their own goods coastwise. In this case, the Massaliots are fools to set up in competition with them. What they should be doing is coming down the river, and establish a small emporium dealing in Mediterranean goods.
And by the way, even this may be presumptuous of them--presumably the big tribe they have just destroyed, centered on Tolosa which has just been conquered and resettled, was their prior trade partner so the Greeks are not really offering anything new, just replacing what they broke. I'm certainly not saying the Massaliot League was wrong to attack and destroy that tribe, but my point is the Burdigalans have little cause for joy or gratitude.
Unless the Volcae were in fact bad neighbors, as their behavior against the Massaliot suggests maybe they were. In that case the Greeks are opening up new opportunities for the Biturgies Vivisci. (Wikipedia also remarks that these are an isolated people surrounded by Aquitanian tribes they have little relation with--as long as the intruding Massaliotes focus on taking only from Aquitani, they are perhaps appearing as enemies of their enemies and thus provisionally good allies).
One way or another, the Greeks should focus on tapping into the existing trade networks of the Atlantic coast, if these are well developed. Intruding onto them and taking them over might be an understandable ambition, but if that is their aim and the effect of their arrival on the Atlantic coast, then they are in fact, in the long term if not obviously at the moment, the enemy of the established trading coastal towns. The Burdigalians presumably are not stupid and will be able to figure this out for themselves pretty quick.
Instead, offering to trade down the river to their doorstep, and then, as these trade relations lead to increased opportunity and prosperity for the Gauls of that town, insinuating themselves onto Burdigalan crews, and offering to expand the shipbuilding and port trade with Greek manpower to the mutual benefit of both groups, would seem the smart if somewhat slower way to get plugged in to the Atlantic coast network.
Alternatively, if the Massaliotes feel that is too slow, too limited, too undignified or whatever, they had better aim at simply conquering Burdigala without delay and using it as their base. If they were to reverse the alliance relationships, favoring Aquitani and ganging up on the isolated town with Massaliot reinforcements, the result might be well accomplished and it might be possible to compel the surviving Burdigalans to cooperate in teaching the Greeks how to operate on the wild shore. Obviously that is a bigger undertaking, and perhaps the Greeks wish to accomplish the aim of seizing the superior assets of the natural port town by indirection and degrees, starting their own colony town at some expense to bypass and undermine the older town's position, and thus drive it into their control gradually and hopefully avoiding a big military confrontation--and if there is one, they will have manipulated the Celts into being aggressors and hence have little trouble gathering League power to crush them.
2) perhaps the Burdigalans are not sailors to speak of, letting other Gaulish coastal peoples be the carriers of what trade they get by sea. Perhaps they live by fishing the estuary and don't know much more than Greeks do about sailing the open Atlantic. If the Greeks were humble enough to be educated by experienced seamen of the Great Ocean Sea, they might be unfortunate in that the one most accessible port to them is a poor tutor! This would be too bad but appealing to Greek pride. As seamen of some sort anyway, briefed by Pythias's writings and teachings, they might be able to make the Burdigalans an interesting and attractive offer--in addition to trading in goods brought down the river, they can also set up a naval yard in the harbor, and there the Greeks can do their best to build what they believe and hope will be suitable hulls for the Atlantic trade, inviting some locals to join them in their adventure. They will gradually learn by experience how to operate, perhaps hiring master shipbuilders and sailors from the other coastal towns that are expert in the matter. Because in this scenario they are opening up a new market, bringing Mediterranean goods in quantity which had not been offered before, the existing community of Gaulish coastal traders may welcome them instead of rejecting them--as the update seems to suggest would be the case.
Either way, the third way chosen of veering west overland off the Garrone to a deserted bay to the south and founding a new town there seems strange and costly. There is a stream feeding into the bay so perhaps finding the point where the Garrone sweeps closest to that stream might mean only a short portage path needs to be cleared. Still, every mile goods are hauled overland equates to tens or hundreds of sea miles in terms of effort. The basic economics of hauling goods to Naucratia seems wrong, nor is it wise of the Greeks to sally forth on the Atlantic in ships of their own Mediterranean-informed design with crews who have not sailed the Atlantic before. Given the existence of Burdigala, it looks ominous to me, perhaps a plot to take the older site by degrees.
Very well then...but there was no indiction on your map that a settlement of any kind already did exist there. Being curious I did look up Arcachon on the internet and found that there is some mention of some ancient ruins somewhere on the bay, but by and large it seems to have been deserted for most of history, the current set of towns there going back only to the 1850s.
Since you do mark certain cities on your maps of Gaul, one has to presume when you leave an area blank, it lacks notable settlement. Therefore the site of Bordeaux seems available.
So your doing research is a good thing, but passing on the results of it by marking towns you know are there instead of implying there are none with blank stretches is where your research really pays off.
The question of just how the Massaliot traders access their offset site still remains, as overland trade even with roads is ruinously difficult, and there are no roads--I suppose! Were the Gauls actually in the habit of making roads too? And if so is there one here? If the former is true I still would doubt the latter--the whole point of the colony was I figured to create a new settlement in wilderness.
Put it this way. If taking the more convenient site of Bordeaux is an act of aggression against a Gaulish ally, then how is it not aggressive to set up a rival port and go after trade markets the Bituriges presumably trade in themselves? I made the mistake of assuming that where you show a blank is undeveloped wilderness once; now that I know there are Gaulish settlements there, I should assume that the Gauls, at a given population density anyway, pretty much do anything Greeks at such a density would do too--similar tech levels, similar levels of stone building, similar kinds of agricultural intensity, perhaps similar levels of road building to what Romans would do--therefore, similar levels of trade by river, possibly road--and sea!
In this perhaps I err as badly in the direction of figuring the Gauls are basically equal to the Greeks as the inference from the blanks on your map that there was no development there at all. Reading up on Gaul in general tends to stress the "developed" assumption more than the opposite though. Technologically it seems that large Gaulish settlements would be quite equivalent to Greek or Roman towns of the same size, and the Gauls are said to have been traders themselves.
All of which suggests that if Burdigala is a built-up town already, that it is probably in the business of sea trade as well.
The Greeks are excellent and experienced sailors--on the Mediterranean. But if the Biturgies Vivisci are sailors of any note themselves (a point Wikipedia sheds no light on) their experience is with sailing the Atlantic--a much different proposition than the Med! The Greeks, if this is their first venture onto the great ocean, are babes in the woods. The great geographer Pythias presumably had learned a thing or two about the Atlantic in his travels and passed this knowledge down to his city, but being told about the tides and other bizarre and surprising phenomena is nothing like having had lifelong experience with it, as any Burdigalan mariners would know.
Being unsure whether general Gaulish aptness to trade implies these Celts of this town are in fact sailors or not, I see two possibilities:
1) they are sailors--maybe not the greatest Celtic mariners on the Atlantic coast (the update suggests that might be the Veneti) but anyway competent enough to fish and carry their own goods coastwise. In this case, the Massaliots are fools to set up in competition with them. What they should be doing is coming down the river, and establish a small emporium dealing in Mediterranean goods.
And by the way, even this may be presumptuous of them--presumably the big tribe they have just destroyed, centered on Tolosa which has just been conquered and resettled, was their prior trade partner so the Greeks are not really offering anything new, just replacing what they broke. I'm certainly not saying the Massaliot League was wrong to attack and destroy that tribe, but my point is the Burdigalans have little cause for joy or gratitude.
Unless the Volcae were in fact bad neighbors, as their behavior against the Massaliot suggests maybe they were. In that case the Greeks are opening up new opportunities for the Biturgies Vivisci. (Wikipedia also remarks that these are an isolated people surrounded by Aquitanian tribes they have little relation with--as long as the intruding Massaliotes focus on taking only from Aquitani, they are perhaps appearing as enemies of their enemies and thus provisionally good allies).
One way or another, the Greeks should focus on tapping into the existing trade networks of the Atlantic coast, if these are well developed. Intruding onto them and taking them over might be an understandable ambition, but if that is their aim and the effect of their arrival on the Atlantic coast, then they are in fact, in the long term if not obviously at the moment, the enemy of the established trading coastal towns. The Burdigalians presumably are not stupid and will be able to figure this out for themselves pretty quick.
Instead, offering to trade down the river to their doorstep, and then, as these trade relations lead to increased opportunity and prosperity for the Gauls of that town, insinuating themselves onto Burdigalan crews, and offering to expand the shipbuilding and port trade with Greek manpower to the mutual benefit of both groups, would seem the smart if somewhat slower way to get plugged in to the Atlantic coast network.
Alternatively, if the Massaliotes feel that is too slow, too limited, too undignified or whatever, they had better aim at simply conquering Burdigala without delay and using it as their base. If they were to reverse the alliance relationships, favoring Aquitani and ganging up on the isolated town with Massaliot reinforcements, the result might be well accomplished and it might be possible to compel the surviving Burdigalans to cooperate in teaching the Greeks how to operate on the wild shore. Obviously that is a bigger undertaking, and perhaps the Greeks wish to accomplish the aim of seizing the superior assets of the natural port town by indirection and degrees, starting their own colony town at some expense to bypass and undermine the older town's position, and thus drive it into their control gradually and hopefully avoiding a big military confrontation--and if there is one, they will have manipulated the Celts into being aggressors and hence have little trouble gathering League power to crush them.
2) perhaps the Burdigalans are not sailors to speak of, letting other Gaulish coastal peoples be the carriers of what trade they get by sea. Perhaps they live by fishing the estuary and don't know much more than Greeks do about sailing the open Atlantic. If the Greeks were humble enough to be educated by experienced seamen of the Great Ocean Sea, they might be unfortunate in that the one most accessible port to them is a poor tutor! This would be too bad but appealing to Greek pride. As seamen of some sort anyway, briefed by Pythias's writings and teachings, they might be able to make the Burdigalans an interesting and attractive offer--in addition to trading in goods brought down the river, they can also set up a naval yard in the harbor, and there the Greeks can do their best to build what they believe and hope will be suitable hulls for the Atlantic trade, inviting some locals to join them in their adventure. They will gradually learn by experience how to operate, perhaps hiring master shipbuilders and sailors from the other coastal towns that are expert in the matter. Because in this scenario they are opening up a new market, bringing Mediterranean goods in quantity which had not been offered before, the existing community of Gaulish coastal traders may welcome them instead of rejecting them--as the update seems to suggest would be the case.
Either way, the third way chosen of veering west overland off the Garrone to a deserted bay to the south and founding a new town there seems strange and costly. There is a stream feeding into the bay so perhaps finding the point where the Garrone sweeps closest to that stream might mean only a short portage path needs to be cleared. Still, every mile goods are hauled overland equates to tens or hundreds of sea miles in terms of effort. The basic economics of hauling goods to Naucratia seems wrong, nor is it wise of the Greeks to sally forth on the Atlantic in ships of their own Mediterranean-informed design with crews who have not sailed the Atlantic before. Given the existence of Burdigala, it looks ominous to me, perhaps a plot to take the older site by degrees.
Hi, interesting post!
Yes Arcachon it seems to have been deserted for most of history, the current set of towns there going back only to the 1850s.
Sorry for the misunderstanding but i am not a map expert. I just try to make maps to illustrate the storyline better and learn little photoshop
Most of the times my maps just shows the area of each nation/tribe and the important things for my storyline. So when you see the whole area of a state or a tribe and not even one city that doesn't mean that there are no cities there... It would require lots of hours of research per map, to put everything in place. So Bordeaux is a remote settlement of the Bituriges Vivisci,within the influence zone/borders of Santone tribe. Btw if someone has some good links for towns,maps,tribes of Gaul to share i would be more than grateful. The research of pro Roman era Gaul geography is a pain in the …
Ofc its an act of aggression. Massillot Greeks made lots of trade wars in the past and its in their nature to expand with new trade colonies. So lets see for a moment the Burdigala(Bituriges) status: They are a remote settlement far from their core and within the lands of Santones tribe, an ally of Massaliot League and they are also heavily depended on the trade with the Greeks(who control almost all of Garonne river). So i don’t think they can do much about it. Another factor for Naucratia to be built is that access to the Atlantic ocean was a major trade* target for Massalia, since the time that Carthage close the pillars of Hercules for them. So besides the trade with the Gauls in the bay of Biscay and in the far North, the Massaliots build this remote settlement to establish trade with Celto/iberians once more. Besides all that, if someone is going to have problem with the Greeks in Atlantic, that will be Carthage and Vennetii tribe who were in control of the trade in the area and not Burdigala. Last but not least i don't see why Naucratia to have problem using Garrone river for connection with the mainland of Massaliot League. About the tech level in OTL 3rd century BC, Gauls wasn’t at the same level with the Greeks(Even more with Massalia in my timeline with museums etc) but they were not backwater also. They were heavily influenced by the Greeks and later the Romans and that boosted their societies. In the 2nd century BC, Mediterranean Gaul had an extensive urban fabric and was prosperous.
* the tin and amber routes
Don't under estimate the breakthrough of Pytheas for ship travel.
For example: Pytheas was the first person we know to have used "Gnomon" to calculate the latitude of Massalia, which he found to be 43' 1 I' North, almost matching the true figure of 43' 18'North for modern day Marseilles. The ability to record the precise location of different sites along his travels proved invaluable to him, helped him to establish the accuracy of his log, and provided the proof needed for modern day historians to confirm his writings.
Pythias died in approximately 285 BC. So in my time line i am pretty sure that geographer Adelphius, a student of Pytheas, learn everything from him .
Besides that, yes Atlantic will be a different story for the Greeks but not alien.
I think i answered the most in the previous quotes. Anyway thank you for the nice suggestions and participation. Looking forward to hear more from you
Lets see how the Atlantic adventures of Massaliot League will evolve!
Ps: About Venetii i would like to say something more: i all ready mention in my timeline that they specialise in ships as a hint of they are the naval and trade power of the area( they used to trade tin from Cornwall with carthage)
Yes Arcachon it seems to have been deserted for most of history, the current set of towns there going back only to the 1850s.
Sorry for the misunderstanding but i am not a map expert. I just try to make maps to illustrate the storyline better and learn little photoshop
Most of the times my maps just shows the area of each nation/tribe and the important things for my storyline. So when you see the whole area of a state or a tribe and not even one city that doesn't mean that there are no cities there... It would require lots of hours of research per map, to put everything in place. So Bordeaux is a remote settlement of the Bituriges Vivisci,within the influence zone/borders of Santone tribe. Btw if someone has some good links for towns,maps,tribes of Gaul to share i would be more than grateful. The research of pro Roman era Gaul geography is a pain in the …Ofc its an act of aggression. Massillot Greeks made lots of trade wars in the past and its in their nature to expand with new trade colonies. So lets see for a moment the Burdigala(Bituriges) status: They are a remote settlement far from their core and within the lands of Santones tribe, an ally of Massaliot League and they are also heavily depended on the trade with the Greeks(who control almost all of Garonne river). So i don’t think they can do much about it. Another factor for Naucratia to be built is that access to the Atlantic ocean was a major trade* target for Massalia, since the time that Carthage close the pillars of Hercules for them. So besides the trade with the Gauls in the bay of Biscay and in the far North, the Massaliots build this remote settlement to establish trade with Celto/iberians once more. Besides all that, if someone is going to have problem with the Greeks in Atlantic, that will be Carthage and Vennetii tribe who were in control of the trade in the area and not Burdigala. Last but not least i don't see why Naucratia to have problem using Garrone river for connection with the mainland of Massaliot League. About the tech level in OTL 3rd century BC, Gauls wasn’t at the same level with the Greeks(Even more with Massalia in my timeline with museums etc) but they were not backwater also. They were heavily influenced by the Greeks and later the Romans and that boosted their societies. In the 2nd century BC, Mediterranean Gaul had an extensive urban fabric and was prosperous.
* the tin and amber routes
Don't under estimate the breakthrough of Pytheas for ship travel.
For example: Pytheas was the first person we know to have used "Gnomon" to calculate the latitude of Massalia, which he found to be 43' 1 I' North, almost matching the true figure of 43' 18'North for modern day Marseilles. The ability to record the precise location of different sites along his travels proved invaluable to him, helped him to establish the accuracy of his log, and provided the proof needed for modern day historians to confirm his writings.
Pythias died in approximately 285 BC. So in my time line i am pretty sure that geographer Adelphius, a student of Pytheas, learn everything from him .
Besides that, yes Atlantic will be a different story for the Greeks but not alien.
I think i answered the most in the previous quotes. Anyway thank you for the nice suggestions and participation. Looking forward to hear more from you
Lets see how the Atlantic adventures of Massaliot League will evolve!
Ps: About Venetii i would like to say something more: i all ready mention in my timeline that they specialise in ships as a hint of they are the naval and trade power of the area( they used to trade tin from Cornwall with carthage)
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277 BC.
277 BC
The Massaliot League decided to help their ally Ausci tribe again the rest of the Aquitaini tribes and expand their control in the area. The Tolosa tagma together with three thousands celtiberians and two thousands Ligurian mercenaries paid by the common treasury and the company of dynatoi, under the command of strategos Alkaios marched in Ausci capital Elimberris and meet with the three thousands army of Ausci. From there they marched southwest and meet the Aquitani allied army of nearly nine thousands man.The professional tagma and the combined arms, army of the Massaliot League was no match for the Aquitani alliance. The battle was an easy victory for Massaliot League. The Massaliots army lost one thousand men and the Aquitani nearly four thousands. The next months after some minor battles, all of the Aquitany area was under Massaliot League control.
Greece
The Massaliot League decided to help their ally Ausci tribe again the rest of the Aquitaini tribes and expand their control in the area. The Tolosa tagma together with three thousands celtiberians and two thousands Ligurian mercenaries paid by the common treasury and the company of dynatoi, under the command of strategos Alkaios marched in Ausci capital Elimberris and meet with the three thousands army of Ausci. From there they marched southwest and meet the Aquitani allied army of nearly nine thousands man.The professional tagma and the combined arms, army of the Massaliot League was no match for the Aquitani alliance. The battle was an easy victory for Massaliot League. The Massaliots army lost one thousand men and the Aquitani nearly four thousands. The next months after some minor battles, all of the Aquitany area was under Massaliot League control.
- Tin and Amber start to flow in the Massaliot League trade markets.
Greece
- Antigonus crosses the Hellespont and defeats the Celts under the command of Cerethrius at the Battle of Lysimachia nearLysimachia at the neck of the Thracian Chersonese. After this success, he is acknowledged by the Macedonians as their king.
- Pyrrhus captures Eryx, the strongest Carthaginian fortress in Sicily. This prompts the rest of the Carthaginian-controlled cities in Sicily to defect to Pyrrhus.
Great job so far @Sersor
I'm however starting to question the future of Massalia as the capital of its own state.
Massalia make sense as the capital of a maritime league focused on the medditerannean but it work less well when you have a power with eyes turned north toward the interior like it seem to be the case here.
My guess is that Tolosa would take more and more place in the league.
I'm however starting to question the future of Massalia as the capital of its own state.
Massalia make sense as the capital of a maritime league focused on the medditerannean but it work less well when you have a power with eyes turned north toward the interior like it seem to be the case here.
My guess is that Tolosa would take more and more place in the league.
Thank you! I really appreciate it.
I thought about moving capitals but for now i'll stick with Massalia. The League is still rather small in land area and Mediterranean sea is the centre of world. As for Tolosa, is already one of the most important cities in the league.The gold mines of Tolosa is the backbone of the economy of the Massaliot League.
Another advantage that Massalia has is (alongside the med and prestige) that it sits on the Rhone, which if developed upon means that the Massalian league can transport goods and troops up and down the eastern edge of Gaul, and create a trade outpost with S.Germania.
Not to mention,Massalia is probably a site that could be easily defended.To it's east is the Alps,to it's north and west is the Rhone while to it's south is the Mediterranean.The city is surrounded by natural defences.It's sort of a bit like Beijing.
Another thing is that at it's core,Massalia is a thalassocracy that thrives upon Mediterranean trade.Wouldn't do well if you move the capital inland.
Yes Rhone river is a really important trade route for the Massaliot League.
Yes it is exactly like that. Massalia is now the link that connects the trade routes of Gaul(Rhone,Garrone rivers)and the trade routes of amber and tin from the Atlantic ocean, with the Mediterranean world and a major trade partner of Ptolemaic Egypt. The next years the rivalry of Rome with Carthage will affect tremendously this new rising power.
I've got a question,what kind of Gaulish things have the Greeks of Massalia adopted?I think this is the most interesting bit of the timeline.Another thing is that by population,what is the percentage of ethnic Gauls in Massalia that are either culturally Greek or otherwise?
About navigation in the Atlantic,did the Greeks adopt Atlantic seafaring ships that are largely wind-powered or did they still use galleys?
About navigation in the Atlantic,did the Greeks adopt Atlantic seafaring ships that are largely wind-powered or did they still use galleys?
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Greeks using small Atlantic ships? Teh horror!
Although, if they can use the technology and build upon it to make Galley-Sized ships, we could see the Massalians become more able at sea than the Carthaginians - and that would really change the game. It would most likely lead to a war for control of the Pillars of Hercules, and I don't know if the Massalians can afford the same standing armies alongside mercenary armies to match Carthage, at least not until they boost their trade in the eastern med.
Ignoring the Atlantic Vessels - Is there anywhere in the eastern med where they could realistically get access to land for a proper colony? Crete would be amazing, Rhodes would certainly be a useful island to control. If Rome goes East - then the Massalians may benefit from providing naval support. Not only does it create a dependency by the Romans on a Massalian fleet, which would benefit Massalian security, but ensuring Massalian troops are only lost in the capture of islands means a relatively low manpower cost war, to get a major naval base to rival the Carthaginians. The possibilities that provides for political gains in the east are huge.
Interesting questions darthfanta
About the Gauls In OTL The Greeks/Romans did not understand their way of like and said that they were Wild, Naked people who collected heads. So basically the case here, as in OTL that the Gauls adopted the Greek culture. Nevertheless the Greeks in my timeline(probably in OTL also) adopted things from Gauls especially in warfare and craftsmanship of weapons. Another thing that will partly adopt in my timeline is the specialised for Atlantic ocean, ships models of the Venetii tribe. In culture there is a curiosity about some Druids healing techniques and poems.
About the population i am planning to write more detailed in the next years of my time line. The Gaul populations in the ex celto-ligurians towns and in the ex Vocontii areas are a rather small minority and pretty much hellenized by now(specially the younger generations). In the ex Volcae area besides hellenized Tolosa the population is mostly Gauls.
About navigation in the Atlantic, they had some knowledge from Pytheas and they did modified their ships a little bit. The partly adopt of the Venetii ship model is something that will happen little later in my timeline.
About the Gauls In OTL The Greeks/Romans did not understand their way of like and said that they were Wild, Naked people who collected heads. So basically the case here, as in OTL that the Gauls adopted the Greek culture. Nevertheless the Greeks in my timeline(probably in OTL also) adopted things from Gauls especially in warfare and craftsmanship of weapons. Another thing that will partly adopt in my timeline is the specialised for Atlantic ocean, ships models of the Venetii tribe. In culture there is a curiosity about some Druids healing techniques and poems.
About the population i am planning to write more detailed in the next years of my time line. The Gaul populations in the ex celto-ligurians towns and in the ex Vocontii areas are a rather small minority and pretty much hellenized by now(specially the younger generations). In the ex Volcae area besides hellenized Tolosa the population is mostly Gauls.
About navigation in the Atlantic, they had some knowledge from Pytheas and they did modified their ships a little bit. The partly adopt of the Venetii ship model is something that will happen little later in my timeline.
So would it be a stretch to say that most of the Massalian population are just Gauls who think that they are actually Greeks?Or is the migrant population from Greece and other areas actually balancing out the hellenized Gaulish population?Interesting questions darthfanta
About the Gauls In OTL The Greeks/Romans did not understand their way of like and said that they were Wild, Naked people who collected heads. So basically the case here, as in OTL that the Gauls adopted the Greek culture. Nevertheless the Greeks in my timeline(probably in OTL also) adopted things from Gauls especially in warfare and craftsmanship of weapons. Another thing that will partly adopt in my timeline is the specialised for Atlantic ocean, ships models of the Venetii tribe. In culture there is a curiosity about some Druids healing techniques and poems.
About the population i am planning to write more detailed in the next years of my time line. The Gaul populations in the ex celto-ligurians towns and in the ex Vocontii areas are a rather small minority and pretty much hellenized by now(specially the younger generations). In the ex Volcae area besides hellenized Tolosa the population is mostly Gauls.
About navigation in the Atlantic, they had some knowledge from Pytheas and they did modified their ships a little bit. The partly adopt of the Venetii ship model is something that will happen little later in my timeline.
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