Huh, okay. Well, it takes a lot more than throwing money at universities to get that done, but medieval India certainly has ways to get the ball rolling on physics. The math is definitely there, astronomy was never fully able to abandon geocentrism but did admit at least some planets must orbit the sun, however optics mostly flourished in the Islamic world and then Europe and fluid dynamics... well, time to Google "india medieval vacuum" and related strings.

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Well yes, it also takes a lot of previous economic development and advances in metalworking, among other things. Wasn't India pretty close to industrializing IOTL before the British Raj swooped in?

Also, I had no idea that Pataliputra would suffer from natural disasters like that in the future. Isn't modern Patna (Pataliputra's successor) a fairly large city? Not as big as Delhi, of course, but what happened in the meantime (other than the floods that you mentioned)? I even made a thread about that last year, and was honestly pretty optimistic about it.

Of course, if this issue is unavoidable, I can always handwave a big flood in Pataliputra, combined with uprisings elsewhere, as the main reason why the Guptas finally fell at a later date than OTL.

EDIT, and perhaps also a bit of a rant: The biggest cliche that I'm trying to avoid by far is the idea that History follows a linear, predictable path (an empire starts small and steadily rises until it reaches its height, for example). In reality, it is full of twists and turns, with unexpected and often straight up unbelievable events (who could've guessed that a bunch of desert nomads [massive simplification, I know] would be able to completely destroy a giant empire and utterly cripple another one, or that a ruler of some really tiny kingdom would overthrow his overlord and conquer all the states around him, creating one of the largest empires of Antiquity?). The same thing applies to industrialization, with said process being a lot more complicated than just "Hooray! We have a steam engine, now let's build crazy machines!".
 
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Hmm... in other words, Magadha is pulling a reverse Mughal empire. I can see Iran not taking this lightly, tho they have other issues to deal with beforehand.

One quibble I can see with Indian industrialization is the absence of movable type and printed literature, which is instrumental for the mass-dissemination of knowledge and especially of industry and the sciences. The universities could pioneer something like crafted woodblocks, ceramics, or metal plates like what happened in East Asia, but I hazard that this could take anything from a decade to a century, depending on how much the intellectuals are invested in the process.

But I do think there's a way out. The wildest (and simplest) way of printed type currently known, by far, was simply to bake clay moulds of alphabets/letters in a kiln and Voilà! XDIt'll be a shoddy job and the individual alphabets may differ in size and shape - hope the Magadhis aren't fussy on letter standardization - but it gets the job done in a hilariously simple way.
 
Well yes, it also takes a lot of previous economic development and advances in metalworking, among other things. Wasn't India pretty close to industrializing IOTL before the British Raj swooped in?

Well, India certainly maintained quality and quantity of production, and Indian textiles in particular were a star performer due to efficiency-raising innovations (and discussions of "deindustralization" in British India tend to center around decline in the textile industry caused by attempts to centralize production in new colonial cities or outright deny India the right to produce certain products). But industrialization isn't just about efficiency, it's about power-- using diverse sources of energy/work. Europe had the edge in quantity of windmills/waterwheels even before the steam engine hit. But more than that, Europe had worked out an understanding of vacuums, and accordingly of air pressure. Succeeding studies built on that by looking at the impact of temperature and volume, and all that went into the successive designs that finally yielded the steam engine. So while India had very sophisticated craft production, I really don't know about "close to industrialization".

But while there's arguments over whether Europe or the northeast US was blessed by geography to have to lots of rivers for waterwheels/timber for windmills, 1) efficiency-saving inventions relevant to a particular field can pop up anywhere with sustained craft production and 2) theories about physics can exist and spread in any climate. Torricelli's experiment to prove that air pressure can even push mercury against gravity to fill a vacuum is simple to conceptualize, but to arrive at it you need people to ask questions about how a suction pump works (and interpreting the result takes a certain amount of prior theorizing about mass and weight too). And even if we don't know how exactly Europe got piston-pumps, we know the Islamic world arrived at them-- but animal-power remained in vogue in the Middle East and India, for... some reason. But just because it isn't used at a societal level doesn't mean a bright spark can't mess with it and find something even more useful (mercury itself kinda falls into that category too-- who'd have thought the alchemist's plaything/deadly poison would be so good at measuring temperature and pressure?).

And with India trying to break into Persia, that bright spark can come from anywhere: the Middle East is probably a terrible place for science now, but India and its universities could still play host to Buddhists from East and Central Asia, and could even be a wonderful second home for Greek texts and Syrian scholars (and evangelists? Christianity needs a future somewhere...)

I do think there's a way out. The wildest (and simplest) way of printed type currently known, by far, was simply to bake clay moulds of alphabets/letters in a kiln and Voilà! XDIt'll be a shoddy job and the individual alphabets may differ in size and shape - hope the Magadhis aren't fussy on letter standardization - but it gets the job done in a hilariously simple way.
An interesting option, but you could make them out of wood too. Might be less durable, but a handy scholar could probably make a new one himself. And India might see immigration of paper-millers from the former Hephthalite Empire.

Also, I had no idea that Pataliputra would suffer from natural disasters like that in the future. Isn't modern Patna (Pataliputra's successor) a fairly large city? Not as big as Delhi, of course, but what happened in the meantime (other than the floods that you mentioned)? I even made a thread about that last year, and was honestly pretty optimistic about it.

Of course, if this issue is unavoidable, I can always handwave a big flood in Pataliputra, combined with uprisings elsewhere, as the main reason why the Guptas finally fell at a later date than OTL.

The evidence is spotty (a Chinese reference to a flood here, silt layers there) but the overall picture is coherent even if it's really weird: for a thousand years (roughly 600-1600) Pataliputra just dropped off the map. No artistic finds can be attributed to it, the archaeological record at dig-sites like Kumrahar pretty much stops with the end of the Guptas, Nalanda and Rajagriha both eclipse it in importance as cultural centers, and no prominent political centers are found in Magadha at all. Not even the Muslim accounts of conquering the region talk about it (but they do talk about the sack of Nalanda), and the Delhi Sultanate's authorites used the temple-city of Odantapuri (later known as Bihar Sharif) as their local HQ. It was the former viharas/temples that defined "important parts" of the landscape (and also gave Magadha its new name of Bihar) by that time, which may also say something about the priorities of the Pala dynasty when they governed Bihar from about 700-1000.

The Ganges then appears to have moved back roughly to where it was before, right around the time that Sher Shah Suri temporarily evicted the Mughals from India, and then he decided to found modern Patna. Irony of ironies, it was the Afghans of Bihar who briefly made Magadha a pan-Indian power for the first time in a thousand years. But the Tarikh-e-Daudi, which talks about the refounding of Patna, acts like Sher Shah Suri was the first guy to ever found a city there.

Based on what vague things we know about the period Pataliputra may not survive, but the rest of Bihar should be culturally and economically vibrant enough (and the Ganges, no matter how its course shifts, will always be an excellent conduit for trade and travel). Still, it'll be a shock the Guptas probably won't overcome.
 
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Will they focus more on east and south next? I am they can not control or maintain power in the middle east. Is it not better to focus on the subcontinent?

Is there any social impact of Buddhism like in caste system?
 
About industrialization of India - its important is search for the power source -
1- European country used there Tree-forest product in building There navy for trade and war. they exhausted there the main source of primary Power wood around the start of 18 century.
2-so this European country starts to search for a new alternative source of power which happens to be Coal.
3-For starting an industrial revolution in India you have to exhaust this source of power wood around the empirical centre also make the import of Wood from a distant part of kingdom costly.
4- For exhausting forest reserve you have to increase the density of people in massive city-building around the imperial centre. So make the Ganga- Yamuna basin City more populace
5- For shifting Capitals of Empire - You can change it to Kannauj, it was the most important trading centre of North India between 550 CE to 1200, Vikramaditya hair will have the legitimacy to conquest whole India like Mughal gain their legitimacy from Akbar, not Babar(only for Hindu).
637px-Indian_Kanauj_triangle_map.svg.png

an imperial centre in Kanauj will save India from Struggle of The Kanauj triangle which happens between 750-900 . also it can help in the exhausting Forest reserve of the imperial centre to kick start search of the alternative power source.
 
Kumaragupta expanded in London in canon, maybe he can further expand in east which is mostly weak. Skandagupta was the most martial among Gupta kings he can expand his reach in south and sri Lanka.
 
I had originally hoped to keep Pataliputra from fading into obscurity, but since that doesn't seem to be possible, I'll change the headquarters of Chandragupta II's new university to Varanasi, a city that has been an important religious, cultural and economic center for thousands of years.

Second, the Guptas won't advance any further into the west, Kandahar is as far as they can go. And as for which Buddhist sect will come out on top, the Mahayana school will probably be even more dominant that OTL (with 53% of modern Buddhists subscribing to it), since Gandhara and especially Taxila won't be devastated by the Alchon Huns, who may or may not have been the same people as the Hephthalites. The crossing of the Hindu Kush will also allow the subcontinent to discover the secrets of papermaking eventually.

Third, Kumaragupta may well try to conquer southern India or at least the Deccan, since there are no lands left for him to seize in the north, and he's obscenely rich and powerful. However, there's always the risk that he or a future Maharaja might end up Muhammad bin Tughluq-ing the empire.
 
I had originally hoped to keep Pataliputra from fading into obscurity, but since that doesn't seem to be possible, I'll change the headquarters of Chandragupta II's new university to Varanasi, a city that has been an important religious, cultural and economic center for thousands of years.
Keeping Pataliputra relevant longer is possible if the king and government are willing to expend the resources and manpower to dredge the Ganges or dig canals to keep at least a part of the river flowing by the city. It'd be a major undertaking for any empire, though.
 
Keeping Pataliputra relevant longer is possible if the king and government are willing to expend the resources and manpower to dredge the Ganges or dig canals to keep at least a part of the river flowing by the city. It'd be a major undertaking for any empire, though.
That sounds like its way too expensive, especially when dealing with the technology of the period. Even the Guptas can't pay for everything else's upkeep and do this at the same time, and they're going to eventually run out of great emperors.
 
Will there be canon universities present in this timeline? Nalanda, puspagiri, somapuri, odantapuri, jagadddal etc?

Will it be yogachara school which dominate subcontinent?
 
Will there be canon universities present in this timeline? Nalanda, puspagiri, somapuri, odantapuri, jagadddal etc?

Will it be yogachara school which dominate subcontinent?
The future Workshop of the World will need every single institution of higher learning it can get its hands on.

As for the second question, I don't know enough about the subject to say much, but since said school seems to be associated to the Mahayana sect of Buddhism, probably yes.
 
Will Gupta try to take place of child to expand their power in Sri Lanka and Southeast Asia?

Will we see more India and China cultural exchange? Marriage pact maybe? Even with Tibet?

Maybe Chandragupta can restore Buddhist site like Bodhgaya temple, Kushinagar, and Sarnath etc. A Buddhist mahasangati is also very useful to consolidate Buddhist orthodoxy.

Does Varanasi is as international learning centre as canon Nalanda with students from the allover world?
 
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Will Gupta try to take place of child to expand their power in sri Lanka and southeast asia?

Will we see more India and China cultural exchange? Marriage pact maybe?
Child? Did you mean China? There will be a lot of contact between China and India, mostly through maritime trade, but it won't be much more than that. The two countries are just way too far away from each other, and the Himalayas form an impenetrable land barrier between the two.

Also, Sri Lanka and Southeast Asia are way too far for the Guptas to truly meddle in, but there will be a lot of trade and cultural exchange between them. Expect a lot of Buddhist scholars to sail from, say, Sumatra to Bengal and then Gandhara through the Grand Trunk Road.

And who knows, maybe even a few Christians...
 
I mean chola fucking autocorrect. If you can also answer other two questions. Personally I think Gupta should focus more on directly controlling south India and canon border of north east. Maybe even Nepal, Burma and sri Lanka with marriage pact and conquest. But economic soft power is ideal to deal with south-east asia just like chola. Gupta can not directly control that place, so best spread influence culture wise and utilize soft power.
 
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Even Orissa (although I supposed it would be Kalinga now), which is closer to the Gupta heartland, has a tradition of monsoon-assisted oceanic travel celebrated in the Bali Jatra.

The problem is that we're somewhat ahead of the first big flourish of urbanization and state-building, there's still trade of course but right now it's mostly just Pyu and Mon city states and Funan in the corner... but also there's no better window of opportunity for a Mon-wank.
 
I mean chola fucking autocorrect. If you can also answer other two questions. Personally I think Gupta should focus more on directly controlling south India and canon border of north east. Maybe even Nepal, Burma and sri Lanka with marriage pact and conquest. But economic soft power is ideal to deal with south-east asia just like chola. Gupta can not directly control that place, so best spread indulge culture wise and utilize soft power.
The main problem is that the OTL Gupta Empire was BIG, and this one is even more so because of the territories in Afghanistan. The slow adoption of paper will make matters a lot easier for the bureaucracy in the long run, but administrating it will still be one hell of a tough job for any emperor. It's safe to say that, if Kumaragupta decides to expand to the south, though, the Vakatakas are probably going to be doomed, especially because Prabhavatigupta's regency apparently turned into a de facto part of her father's empire, so any potential resistance might be lessened.

I'll paraphrase a thing that @LostInNewDelhi said in another thread, but the one thing that any pan-Indian empire really needs is a major infrastructure project, such as a copy of the Grand Trunk Road that connects cities like Kannauj and Varanasi to, say, Malwa and the Deccan. That's going to be quite costly in the short term, but if said road is built and allowed to operate...
 
Will we see more India and China cultural exchange? Marriage pact maybe? Even with Tibet?

Maybe Chandragupta can restore Buddhist site like Bodhgaya temple, Kushinagar, and Sarnath etc. A Buddhist mahasangati is also very useful to consolidate Buddhist orthodoxy.

Does Varanasi is as international learning centre as canon Nalanda with student coming from allover world?

Can we expect to see more Chinese or Japanese luminaries in India? I dearly hope for more cultural interaction with China. Chinese meritocracy and bureaucracy will greatly enhance Gupta bureaucracy.
 
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Will we see more India and China cultural exchange? Marriage pact maybe? Even with Tibet?
No marriage pacts, but still a lot of trade, mostly by sea. Maybe a few gifts can be exchanged by both parties.

Maybe Chandragupta can restore Buddhist site like Bodhgaya temple, Kushinagar, and Sarnath etc. A Buddhist mahasangati is also very useful to consolidate Buddhist orthodoxy.
Can you tell me when these sites fell into disrepair? Because they might remain active and therefore not need to be restored. Also, although Buddhism won't die out in India, Hinduism is still really important, especially in the southern regions, and any reasonable emperor will also sponsor the creation of Hindu temples as well.

Does Varanasi is as international learning centre as canon Nalanda with student coming from allover world?
Precisely, and it will also compete with Taxila, which won't be destroyed by the invasion of Toramana ITTL. There's a bit of division between the two: most of Taxila's students come from Iran, Gandhara and the rest of the Indus valley and Central Asia (and maybe even a few lucky Europeans), while Varanasi is dominated by people who come from Southeast Asia and China.

Can we expect to see more Chinese or Japanese luminaries in India? I dearly hope for more cultural interaction with China. Chinese meritocracy and bureaucracy will greatly enhance Gupta bureaucracy.
I don't know enough about these luminaries you speak about to answer that question, but as I've written on the answer above, China and India will (indirectly) influence each other a lot. And once the people of the Indo-Gangetic plain and beyond learn how to use paper, that interaction will become even more obvious.
 
I think it is best time to consolidate Buddhist orthodoxy. So a Buddhist mahasangati is ideal. Asanga, vashubandu, kumarjiva and Bodhidharma, signage, aryadeva are product of this age. If Mahayana can be consolidated as orthodoxy it will weaken the vajrayana traditions in the long run. Kumarjiva was instrumental to introduce Buddhist texts in china while Bodhidharma was responsible for zen Buddhism. If Mahayana can be consolidated further it will greatly help with conversation and it's propagation.
 
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