Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[Ramp-Rat]

And this is the principal advantage of the survival of Sir John Carden, and the numerous advantages that have arisen from this. Britain is not desperate for any tank it can get its hands on, irrespective of just how poorly built or unstable for the role it is. With the combination of better results on the battlefield, in France, the Middle East and Far East, and the ability to thoroughly test prototypes. Britain now has tanks in production that fore-fill the role that they were designed for, and is looking at what will be the first universal tank, designed as such. Which will be used in the front line until the end of the war, and a valuable asset outside of Europe for the foreseeable future. In addition the present Valiant will be when fitted with a 6 pound gun, an export success to those nations that want tanks, but do not have the money for the newest weapons available from ether America or Britain. And to a large extent only Britain and America are going to be exporting tanks post war, especially to the emerging nations in South America and the Middle East. The Nuffield Group, can now concentrate on what it does best and has the time, and thanks to the government the money to completely revamp its facilities.

RR.

 

[MattII]

Well, the march of standardization of tanks of the Commonwealth Army will keep marching on, even if the producer of said tanks, especially would be resistant to the measure. Meanwhile, the Germans could have the potential to go to the opposite direction depending on the reaction to the tanks that the German encountered.


Meanwhile, I would like to ask the others (to hopefully not just talking about guns, and perhaps I would be the one that create the spinoff thread, depending on the OPs permission and perhaps asking the mods on which subforum (probably the offtopic subforum) perhaps to put the aforementioned thread.../s), considering currently OTL that it seems that the ministries is currently having quite a shuffle in regards to war production for some reasons, with Beaverbrook being appointed Minister of War Production in early of February, and then immediately leave the cabinet due to disagreements on more things than I was first expected.

The point is, is Beaverbrook is actually already on the way out like IOTL, or not?

Beaverbrook resigned after a row with Bevin over shipbuilding. Hard to see how that can be avoided.

And this is the principal advantage of the survival of Sir John Carden, and the numerous advantages that have arisen from this. Britain is not desperate for any tank it can get its hands on, irrespective of just how poorly built or unstable for the role it is. With the combination of better results on the battlefield, in France, the Middle East and Far East, and the ability to thoroughly test prototypes. Britain now has tanks in production that fore-fill the role that they were designed for, and is looking at what will be the first universal tank, designed as such. Which will be used in the front line until the end of the war, and a valuable asset outside of Europe for the foreseeable future. In addition the present Valiant will be when fitted with a 6 pound gun, an export success to those nations that want tanks, but do not have the money for the newest weapons available from ether America or Britain. And to a large extent only Britain and America are going to be exporting tanks post war, especially to the emerging nations in South America and the Middle East. The Nuffield Group, can now concentrate on what it does best and has the time, and thanks to the government the money to completely revamp its facilities.

We'll have to see how many Valiants survive the war. I get the feeling a fair few will go to other roles after their replacement, either as 'funnies', archers, or given other weapons.

 

[Cymraeg]

Well Lord Nuffield Org shot itself in the foot with its insistent on the Liberty Engine however good to see a rationalisation on the Victor this is as major boost to the war effort and will save resources.

Though Lord Nuffield will probably blow a gasket and I expect he will assume this is an attack by Beaverbrook on him and his intrests.

Nuffield was very skilled at not just shooting himself in the foot, but at times chainsawing his own legs off. The great scandal of the Castle Bromwich Spitfire factory should have taught everyone that the man was a stubborn fool at times.

 

[kelgar04]

Nuffield was very skilled at not just shooting himself in the foot, but at times chainsawing his own legs off. The great scandal of the Castle Bromwich Spitfire factory should have taught everyone that the man was a stubborn fool at times.

I have to wonder if what passes his board may see to him being eased out slightly.

 

[Ramp-Rat]

I have to wonder if what passes his board may see to him being eased out slightly.

Two problems, one I don’t know what his personal share holding was, as the board might find that he can along with various friends, out vote them, and cause their dismissal. Two even if he can not out vote them, he is not the sort to go down without a very messy fight, which will force HMG to become involved as they do not want the dirty laundry published in the press.

 

[Bougnas]

In other tank-related news, The Pig of Lazers has released a video about Nazi piece of excrement Michael Wittmann that basically teaches us that almost everything you think you know about Villers-Bocage is dead flat wrong. There's also a bit about a crew in a Stuart taking on a Tiger and alerting their fellow tank crews. Raise a beverage in the air to their memory people. Respect.

Uh, the Villers-Bocage story is full of low hanging fruits but frankly Lazerpig was even worse here than in his other videos, it's clear he didn't do any research. Saying Kurt Meyer was a rival who commanded the Panzer Lehr when it's easy to find out he commanded the 12th SS, Wittmann being said to be commander of the 101st SS battalion when he wasn't at all...He contradicts himself many times too, saying that the Cromwell who shot and didn't penetrate the rear at 300m should have penetrated and therefore the story is a lie and it never hit at all...when the simpler answer is that it probably wasn't a hit at a 0° angle so the 75 obviously can fail at 300m against 80mm of steel at an angle .

Seriously, Wehraboo stuff is so easy to disprove that you don't need to make up dumb shit just to own them. I do not recommend the video at all, or at least just enjoy the craziness but don't take it at face value.

The HE ammunition issue is one of the reasons that the the L11 120mm gun on the Chieftain used bagged propellant.

For HE rounds one charge was used, for the APDS two.
(The odd part being that the propellant charges were semi hemispherical. And were stacked one on top of the other for the AP round.)

The L11 charges were hemi-cylindrical, not hemispherical. They were stored in cylindrical cases, so one charge could be used for HE, or both charges out of the case could be used for AP. I imagine it would be easier to grab hemi-cylindrical charges out of the case than if half of a stackable charge was in the bottom of the case or the loader had to open two cases for each AP shot.

James is right that HESH charges were hemi-cylindrical (and even 2 inches shorter than the APDS charge). The APDS charge is unique however, it's not just 2 HESH charges.

(APDS charge above, HESH below on the charge picture)

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Nuffield gets a bit of a bad rep doesn't he but he did create and manage an otherwise very successful company 'group' that still exists and uses his name to this day!

His dodgy right wing politics aside (which I get given he built his company from virtually nothing and his other distasteful opinions regarding Jews and fascism where not unknown among the British elite in the 30s) Castle Bromwich is likely one of his few failures.

Morris cars was the then largest producer of cars with the biggest % of car shares in the interwar period.

A massive philanthropist and being childless pretty gave everything he owned back to the country and people of the UK.

 

[Bougnas]

At the end of the day it was the responsibility of the government (through the ministry of supply and the military) OTL to let Nuffield make his designs the way he did.
While the choice of the Liberty proved unfortunate in practice, Nuffield at least bothered to select and produce a "high power for the time" tank engine at his own expense while a lot of the competition remained content with less powerful truck-based powerplants (besides Meadows but Meadows was never given the follow-on work to design an engine more powerful than the 300hp of the D.A.V.).

If the govt was not happy then it had to act. And it nearly did OTL.

 

[weNEEDlove]

First few minutes. The video-maker claimed something about the Russians training dogs to blow up tanks with mines, and that the dogs attacked their own tanks. The video-maker said he rewatched it forty times, laughing.
At that point I lost interest and closed the page, since Wittmann hadn't been mentioned even once, and I strongly suspected I wasn't watching whatever it was Cymraeg had seen.

NO??? that was not what the video maker was saying!
I think you just don't understand English humor of metaphor and irony.
the video maker was making fun of the people who keep telling him story about Russian Dog and attacking their own tank, and saying that its was exhausting listening to this story for 40+ time.

part of the trans script:
"I would spend most of my life from that point on sitting with my face buried in my hands while yet another tea drinking beardy man in the cardigan tells me the fascinating story of how the Russians strapped landmines to dogs, and how ironic it was that the dogs immediately turned round and blew up the Russian tanks. oh how I laughed the firsts 40 odd times.... it didn't do too well for my character I must admit,I became somewhat loathing of my friends..."

^ the video maker wasn't making fun out of the Russian here (this is irony and metaphor)

 

[weNEEDlove]

Uh, the Villers-Bocage story is full of low hanging fruits but frankly Lazerpig was even worse here than in his other videos, it's clear he didn't do any research. Saying Kurt Meyer was a rival who commanded the Panzer Lehr when it's easy to find out he commanded the 12th SS, Wittmann being said to be commander of the 101st SS battalion when he wasn't at all...He contradicts himself many times too, saying that the Cromwell who shot and didn't penetrate the rear at 300m should have penetrated and therefore the story is a lie and it never hit at all...when the simpler answer is that it probably wasn't a hit at a 0° angle so the 75 obviously can fail at 300m against 80mm of steel at an angle .

I don't know about the position of Wittman and Meyer in the army so i wouldn't comment on that, But.
Lazer pig clearly states that the reason why Dyas story is incorrect is that with regard to how the timeline take place, Dyas Cromwell need to be going slower than walking speed(and thus impossible). And as Dyas have also said that he commanded his tank to follow the Tiger on the minute that the Tiger become out of sight, And that one of the other Primary source Thompson state that he see Dyas Cromwell round the corner after the Tiger pass him. That mean that Dyas Tank hasn't waited in it hiding spot. All of these reason pointed to Dyas story, which was taken in the 1980s, to be partly inaccurate. NOT the thing about Tiger vs Cromwell gun penetration.

 

[Triune Kingdom]

WRT Nuffield and Crusader, that does make for a very interesting development! I had thought British would be more conservative and hedge their bets for longer, before going full in with Vickers.

Still, even if none of the Crusaders ever fire a shot in anger, at least they can provide valuable service as training tanks. The Crusader III chassis, would at least benefit from debugging the design has underwent so far and the removal of quite a bit of weight, which will certainly help. Engine wise, it was planned for a diesel Meadowns engine to be fitted, I think? It could probably also be used as an artillery tractor, though British seem already covered in that area.

That workers and machine tools are being concentrated in a single large factory is also good news, for many reasons. I mean, what impact on British industry would this course of events have? We are not talking just about Nuffield, there is also Vulcan and others involved in Matilda II, once production draws down, their locomotive production is probably increasing. Postwar financial situation would still be rather bleak for the people involved, but maybe the combination of less desperation, lower losses and some slack industry wise, could be for their benefit.

 

[focus9912]

Nuffield gets a bit of a bad rep doesn't he but he did create and manage an otherwise very successful company 'group' that still exists and uses his name to this day!

His dodgy right wing politics aside (which I get given he built his company from virtually nothing and his other distasteful opinions regarding Jews and fascism where not unknown among the British elite in the 30s) Castle Bromwich is likely one of his few failures.

Morris cars was the then largest producer of cars with the biggest % of car shares in the interwar period.

A massive philanthropist and being childless pretty gave everything he owned back to the country and people of the UK.

Perhaps there could be a discussion on whether the fact that his rather stubborn nature would in turn only limits his successful post-war contribution to the company that you had mentioned? Because for me personally, while the company itself is without a doubt successful, the contributions for the most part is only limited to the United Kingdom, and being a relatively unknown company outside of Europe. And to be honest, this is the first time (at least in a extremely long while, perhaps when I first accessed the internet a decade ago I could stumble upon an article about it) that I heard of Nuffield and its contribution to health industry in particular.

Meanwhile, while the interwar period is very good time for Morris Motor, the same could not be in regards to its fortune in the post war, although most of the nature of the misfortunes and decline of Morris Motor is arguably out of Nuffield's control.
Speaking of Morris Motor, the fact that there is currently an effort of at the very least, have a limited degree cooperation between the different sets of company to achieve a certain determined objective, perhaps the workers and managers of these companies can create a sense of respect and camaraderie towards each other, and perhaps at the very least, reduce the number of the arguements that was happening as a result of the BMC's and eventually BL' s creation.

TLDR: Nuffield is a fine but a flawed person, and his surviving contribution is successful but only limited to United Kingdom perhaps as a result of this. Meanwhile, Morris Motor (and the British motor industry in general) could be travelling in a path different than OTL thanks to a change in relationship with competing companies.

P/s: I accidently slept while typing the response, hence the late reply.

That workers and machine tools are being concentrated in a single large factory is also good news, for many reasons. I mean, what impact on British industry would this course of events have? We are not talking just about Nuffield, there is also Vulcan and others involved in Matilda II, once production draws down, their locomotive production is probably increasing. Postwar financial situation would still be rather bleak for the people involved, but maybe the combination of less desperation, lower losses and some slack industry wise, could be for their benefit.

It perhaps would be hard to underestimate the impact of ITTL war on the British industry.

 

[kelgar04]

Remember the Battle Of the Atlantic is pretty much going the same way as OTL it’s still the same nightmare though given how much better everything is going less there is less pressure however the squeeze is still there.

 

[MattII]

Remember the Battle Of the Atlantic is pretty much going the same way as OTL it’s still the same nightmare though given how much better everything is going less there is less pressure however the squeeze is still there.

With fewer escorts needed (and lost) in the Mediterranean (no need to run Malta Convoys with the successful operation in North Africa), the situation in the Atlantic is ever so slightly better than OTL.

 

[Seawolf]

the situation in the Atlantic is ever so slightly better than OTL.

The Cruiser situation is also likely looking significantly better as well. Historically, the Mediterranean bled the Royal Nazy of Cruisers pretty badly.

 

[MattII]

The Cruiser situation is also likely looking significantly better as well. Historically, the Mediterranean bled the Royal Nazy of Cruisers pretty badly.

True. And with no need to cut the Axis supply lines to North Africa (there are none!), I suspect rather a lot of Submarines are trickling east, to the detriment of Japan. Plus, maintaining the colonies in the Far East, grants them greater access to resources that might otherwise need to be brought across the Atlantic.

 

[Orry]

part of the trans script:
"I would spend most of my life from that point on sitting with my face buried in my hands while yet another tea drinking beardy man in the cardigan tells me the fascinating story of how the Russians strapped landmines to dogs, and how ironic it was that the dogs immediately turned round and blew up the Russian tanks. oh how I laughed the firsts 40 odd times.... it didn't do too well for my character I must admit,I became somewhat loathing of my friends..."

^ the video maker wasn't making fun out of the Russian here (this is irony and metaphor)

Is he having a go at Lindybeige???

https://www.youtube.com/@lindybeige

 

[Seawolf]

True. And with no need to cut the Axis supply lines to North Africa (there are none!), I suspect rather a lot of Submarines are trickling east, to the detriment of Japan. Plus, maintaining the colonies in the Far East, grants them greater access to resources that might otherwise need to be brought across the Atlantic.

Hell, this timeline's Force Z likely is looking a lot stronger as well beyond just two BBs and a group of DDs.

 

[MattII]

Is he having a go at Lindybeige???

https://www.youtube.com/@lindybeige

I don't believe Lindybeige ever covered the Eastern Front, and he is very much NOT a Wehraboo in any case.

Hell, this timeline's Force Z likely is looking a lot stronger as well beyond just two BBs and a group of DDs.

I believe they're at thre battleships anda carrier ATM, plus lighter vessels.

I believe the Americans are getting their torpedo problems solved earlier than OTL, which will cause even more grief to the Japanese.

 

[Paulo the Limey]

Remember the Battle Of the Atlantic is pretty much going the same way as OTL it’s still the same nightmare though given how much better everything is going less there is less pressure however the squeeze is still there.

No, it should be going better by this point. OTL the vast majority of supplies to the Middle East went around Africa, and this convoy route sucked up a lot of the largest, fastest reefer ships available. These were taken off their usual routes hauling frozen meats from the antipodes, or chilled meats and fruit from South America. Once these ships are reassigned back to their usual routes we’ll see more of these items in the uk, potentially increasing rations a bit. They’ll also improve the dollar situation as these can be paid for in Sterling.