Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[weNEEDlove]

I don't know if the link is broken or someone hacked the site, but I clicked your link and watched the first couple of minutes and it seemed to be a rant about Tony Robinson's Time Team show and how much the video-maker hated alternate historians.
At that point I gave up and double checked my browser to make sure I hadn't acquired any hostile cookies. The only tank mention I saw was about how the video-maker laughed endlessly about Russians during WW2 blowing their own tanks up...

??? when did the video maker laughed endlessly about russians tank?

 

[Wet Coast]

I don't know if the link is broken or someone hacked the site, but I clicked your link and watched the first couple of minutes and it seemed to be a rant about Tony Robinson's Time Team show and how much the video-maker hated alternate historians.
At that point I gave up and double checked my browser to make sure I hadn't acquired any hostile cookies. The only tank mention I saw was about how the video-maker laughed endlessly about Russians during WW2 blowing their own tanks up...

It's a one hour video. You really need to get past the first 3 minutes. The title splash doesn't even come up until 7 minutes in. Though I will admit that Lazer Pigs' style take a bit of getting used. to but who doesn't like a good logical rant.

 

[weNEEDlove]

Going with 17-pounder shells will see Clarke trying to dictate what goes into the tanks, which is much less of an issue with the 75mm stuff. Also I believe it's been mentioned the Valiants are going to be re-gunned for 75mm too.

if you are trying to stop clark from dictateing what will go inside a tank we could "remanufacture US 75mm projectiles to have slightly thicker driving bands" as winged one pointed out.

 

[Look More Closely Later]

??? when did the video maker laughed endlessly about russians tank?

First few minutes. The video-maker claimed something about the Russians training dogs to blow up tanks with mines, and that the dogs attacked their own tanks. The video-maker said he rewatched it forty times, laughing.
At that point I lost interest and closed the page, since Wittmann hadn't been mentioned even once, and I strongly suspected I wasn't watching whatever it was Cymraeg had seen.

 

[MattII]

if you are trying to stop clark from dictateing what will go inside a tank we could "remanufacture US 75mm projectiles to have slightly thicker driving bands" as winged one pointed out.

Since the gun is (by necessity) using a different case to anything else in the army, I don't see the point with boring the gun out the extra 1.2mm. Are the 17-pounder AP rounds that much better at any given muzzle-velocity to warrant it?

 

[MarcH]

First few minutes. The video-maker claimed something about the Russians training dogs to blow up tanks with mines, and that the dogs attacked their own tanks. The video-maker said he rewatched it forty times, laughing.
At that point I lost interest and closed the page, since Wittmann hadn't been mentioned even once, and I strongly suspected I wasn't watching whatever it was Cymraeg had seen.

You were watching the right video. The opening is actually relevant to the rest of the video and Whittmann in particular. Trust me, go ahead and watch the whole thing, the actual discussion is worth it.

 

[weNEEDlove]

Since the gun is (by necessity) using a different case to anything else in the army, I don't see the point with boring the gun out the extra 1.2mm. Are the 17-pounder AP rounds that much better at any given muzzle-velocity to warrant it?

tbh, idk what the discussion is about now; What sides A/B/C trying to argued for and why.

 

[vetinari]

When we are discussing, "boring out a gun," you have to understand that it is easier to start with a smaller calibre round. In other words, you start with a 75mm round and change the driving bands on the round to make it fit a 76.2mm bore. The round doesn't actually change, the driving bands do. The Germans did this frequently, capturing weapons all the time and using them and supplying them with ammunition. The British, would start with a 75mm round and change it's driving bands to make it possible to be fired from a 76,2mm gun, The size and shape of the case might change to suit the breech.

 

[MattII]

When we are discussing, "boring out a gun," you have to understand that it is easier to start with a smaller calibre round. In other words, you start with a 75mm round and change the driving bands on the round to make it fit a 76.2mm bore. The round doesn't actually change, the driving bands do. The Germans did this frequently, capturing weapons all the time and using them and supplying them with ammunition. The British, would start with a 75mm round and change it's driving bands to make it possible to be fired from a 76,2mm gun, The size and shape of the case might change to suit the breech.

Why? I mean, it makes sense with captured equipment, but it seems to me that boring out the gun part-way through production is a recipe for, if not disaster, then at least a lot of hair-pulling and screams on anguish in the logistics corps and armoured units as delivery after delivery has to get send back after it's found to be 3/64ths out in one direction or the other.

 

[Cymraeg]

You were watching the right video. The opening is actually relevant to the rest of the video and Whittmann in particular. Trust me, go ahead and watch the whole thing, the actual discussion is worth it.

Seconded. Hang on in there and you'll get to Villers Bocage and Wittmann. Every LazerPig video is a bit of a wild ride at times, you have to watch the whole thing.

 

[steamboy]

First few minutes. The video-maker claimed something about the Russians training dogs to blow up tanks with mines, and that the dogs attacked their own tanks. The video-maker said he rewatched it forty times, laughing.
At that point I lost interest and closed the page, since Wittmann hadn't been mentioned even once, and I strongly suspected I wasn't watching whatever it was Cymraeg had seen.

Totally worth watching the whole thing, he's just going on about Wehraboo's and Heeraboo's and the "I'm not a nazi fanboy...but..." types that lurk in the dark places, as Wittmann is one of those men they hold up as being the ideal german, a soldier doing his duty and NOTHING MORE, see also Guderian, Mannstein, Rommel, Galland as people also held up by these individuals.
The discussion about Wittmann is superb on the vid, Lazerpig goes on tangents and chats about anything but he holds a rightful hatred for the Nazi fanboys.

 

[allanpcameron]

27 February 1942. Birmingham, England.

Chief Production Engineer for the Nuffield Organisation, Andrew Robertson wasn’t looking forward to the arrival of the delegation from the Ministry of Supply. The seven firms under the Nuffield umbrella had been contracted to build 2,062 Crusader tanks to be delivered by May 1942. At the end of February, despite Robertson’s best efforts, 1044 was the total produced so far. Production was now running at over 190 per month, so they would complete the order by the end of July or beginning of August, just a few months late. There were a lot of reasons for the failure, not least the time it took to overcome some of the design problems which had plagued the early production models. There had been bottlenecks in getting armour plate and especially guns, the emphasis on more spare parts being produced had contributed to failure to complete the order on time.

Sir Miles Thomas, the Vice-Chairman of the Nuffield Organisation, arrived along with the Ministry of Supply team and by the looks on their faces, Robertson thought that there was more bad news than just the failure to complete the order on time. He wasn’t wrong.

The three biggest producers of the Crusader: Mechanizations and Aero Ltd, Morris Commercial and Ruston Bucyrus were all preparing to move onto the Mark III Crusader beginning in May. The redesigned turret was able to squeeze in the 6-pdr gun, at the cost of the loader. The new mark would have the Mk. IV Liberty engine, which they hoped would fix many of the reliability issues previously encountered. With updated water pumps and the cooling fans being driven by a drive shaft rather than the chain drive, the primary problems of reliability should be fixed.

Lord Nuffield had believed that the improvements to the Crusader would increase its desirability, winning large enough orders to keep the seven firms producing it busy until its replacement, the Cromwell, would be ready for production. The Cromwell prototype with the Mk IV Liberty engine was due to be delivered in March, and it was hoped production could begin before the end of the year. Getting a 6-pdr tank into production had necessitated the change to the Crusader’s turret, as the Cromwell was still far off production.

The men from the Ministry of Supply did their best to break the bad news as gently as possible. Two of the firms, Mechanizations and Aero Ltd and Morris Commercial would indeed build the Crusader III, but the hulls only. The various ‘funnies’: AVRE, self-propelled artillery and anti-aircraft guns, Artillery Observation Post would be built on the improved hull. The army had rejected the new turret as it would mean the commander acting as loader, thereby reducing efficiency. A two-man turret was a retrograde step that the Royal Armoured Corps wouldn’t accept.

The bad news kept coming. The prototype Cromwell with the Liberty Engine would undergo tests, but it’s power to weight ratio would probably not be acceptable. The addition of about 8 tons on the Cromwell over the Crusader, with the same engine, when other better engines were available wouldn’t make sense. If Lord Nuffield was wedded to the Liberty Engine, then the Ministry of Supply would have to review what his two main firms would be able to contribute to the tanks of the future.

The other five companies that were currently building the Crusader (Ruston-Bucyrus; John Lysaght; Milners Safe; West’s Gas and Fodens) would be transferred to Vickers-Armstrong’s umbrella group to build the Victor tank. This would take a bit of time to learn the welding techniques required. Because each of the sites were only able to deliver a minimum of five and a maximum of ten tanks per week, the Royal Ordnance Factory in Leeds had been undergoing expansion as a dedicated tank factory. The companies would provide the trained workforce and such machine tools as required. The Ministry of Supply would compensate the firms for the dislocation, and the Ministry of Labour would look after the rehousing of the employees and their families. All of this should result in moving the combined capacity of the five firms from about 130 tanks per month, to nearer 200.

Robertson and Thomas didn’t know it at the time, but the original reasons for having an alternative to the Vickers tanks for insurance was now being dropped. The M4 American tanks coming from Lend Lease would fulfil the role that previously the Nuffield Organisation had undertaken. Concentration on building the Victor as the main British tank for Armoured Divisions would allow for standardisation. Nuffield’s Cromwell, like the Crusader didn’t have the capacity to be improved upon, unlike the Victor that was designed with a powerful enough engine to up-gun and increase armour on it.

 

[vizzer]

Concentration on building the Victor as the main British tank for Armoured Divisions would allow for standardisation. Nuffield’s Cromwell, like the Crusader didn’t have the capacity to be improved upon, unlike the Victor that was designed with a powerful enough engine to up-gun and increase armour on it.

I presume that they will still be building Valiants for supply to Russia?

 

[steamboy]

And the Crusader is finally killed off, shame about the Cromwell though but it makes sense to standardize on a successful and proven tank instead of having multiple types.

 

[kelgar04]

Well Lord Nuffield Org shot itself in the foot with its insistent on the Liberty Engine however good to see a rationalisation on the Victor this is as major boost to the war effort and will save resources.

Though Lord Nuffield will probably blow a gasket and I expect he will assume this is an attack by Beaverbrook on him and his intrests.

 

[allanpcameron]

I suppose what I've killed off is not the Cromwell (that is a bit more of the Victor with the Rolls Royce Meteor), but the OTL Cavalier and Centaur. The Cromwell name was given to all three initially as A24 Cromwell 1 (Nuffield which became the Cavalier), A24L, Cromwell 2 (Leyland which became Centaur) and A24 M, ( M for Meteor, from Birmingham Rail) Cromwell 3, which we know was the first half-decent British tank of the second part of the war. By cancelling the Cavalier and Centaur, we are able to build ~1400 Victors. The meteors that went into Cromwells are going into Victors instead, which makes the Victor a better Cromwell or not quite as good Comet).

 

[Mark1878]

And the Crusader is finally killed off, shame about the Cromwell though but it makes sense to standardize on a successful and proven tank instead of having multiple types.

Tank naming is fun. OTL the UK seems to have had three Cromwells.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalier_tank

The General staff specifications now covered three tanks: A24 "Cromwell I" from Nuffield, A27L (Liberty engine) "Cromwell II" from Leyland and A27M (Meteor engine) "Cromwell III".
To avoid confusion Cromwell I was renamed "Cavalier". The Cromwell II become "Centaur" and the Cromwell III remained as the "Cromwell".[3]

This is the Nuffield one the A24

We still might have a Cromwell from Leyland. Although the comment re not needed multiple tank types as insurance might remove that as well.

Ah ninjaed by the author

 

[Garrison]

27 February 1942. Birmingham, England.

Chief Production Engineer for the Nuffield Organisation, Andrew Robertson wasn’t looking forward to the arrival of the delegation from the Ministry of Supply. The seven firms under the Nuffield umbrella had been contracted to build 2,062 Crusader tanks to be delivered by May 1942. At the end of February, despite Robertson’s best efforts, 1044 was the total produced so far. Production was now running at over 190 per month, so they would complete the order by the end of July or beginning of August, just a few months late. There were a lot of reasons for the failure, not least the time it took to overcome some of the design problems which had plagued the early production models. There had been bottlenecks in getting armour plate and especially guns, the emphasis on more spare parts being produced had contributed to failure to complete the order on time.

Sir Miles Thomas, the Vice-Chairman of the Nuffield Organisation, arrived along with the Ministry of Supply team and by the looks on their faces, Robertson thought that there was more bad news than just the failure to complete the order on time. He wasn’t wrong.

The three biggest producers of the Crusader: Mechanizations and Aero Ltd, Morris Commercial and Ruston Bucyrus were all preparing to move onto the Mark III Crusader beginning in May. The redesigned turret was able to squeeze in the 6-pdr gun, at the cost of the loader. The new mark would have the Mk. IV Liberty engine, which they hoped would fix many of the reliability issues previously encountered. With updated water pumps and the cooling fans being driven by a drive shaft rather than the chain drive, the primary problems of reliability should be fixed.

Lord Nuffield had believed that the improvements to the Crusader would increase its desirability, winning large enough orders to keep the seven firms producing it busy until its replacement, the Cromwell, would be ready for production. The Cromwell prototype with the Mk IV Liberty engine was due to be delivered in March, and it was hoped production could begin before the end of the year. Getting a 6-pdr tank into production had necessitated the change to the Crusader’s turret, as the Cromwell was still far off production.

The men from the Ministry of Supply did their best to break the bad news as gently as possible. Two of the firms, Mechanizations and Aero Ltd and Morris Commercial would indeed build the Crusader III, but the hulls only. The various ‘funnies’: AVRE, self-propelled artillery and anti-aircraft guns, Artillery Observation Post would be built on the improved hull. The army had rejected the new turret as it would mean the commander acting as loader, thereby reducing efficiency. A two-man turret was a retrograde step that the Royal Armoured Corps wouldn’t accept.

The bad news kept coming. The prototype Cromwell with the Liberty Engine would undergo tests, but it’s power to weight ratio would probably not be acceptable. The addition of about 8 tons on the Cromwell over the Crusader, with the same engine, when other better engines were available wouldn’t make sense. If Lord Nuffield was wedded to the Liberty Engine, then the Ministry of Supply would have to review what his two main firms would be able to contribute to the tanks of the future.

The other five companies that were currently building the Crusader (Ruston-Bucyrus; John Lysaght; Milners Safe; West’s Gas and Fodens) would be transferred to Vickers-Armstrong’s umbrella group to build the Victor tank. This would take a bit of time to learn the welding techniques required. Because each of the sites were only able to deliver a minimum of five and a maximum of ten tanks per week, the Royal Ordnance Factory in Leeds had been undergoing expansion as a dedicated tank factory. The companies would provide the trained workforce and such machine tools as required. The Ministry of Supply would compensate the firms for the dislocation, and the Ministry of Labour would look after the rehousing of the employees and their families. All of this should result in moving the combined capacity of the five firms from about 130 tanks per month, to nearer 200.

Robertson and Thomas didn’t know it at the time, but the original reasons for having an alternative to the Vickers tanks for insurance was now being dropped. The M4 American tanks coming from Lend Lease would fulfil the role that previously the Nuffield Organisation had undertaken. Concentration on building the Victor as the main British tank for Armoured Divisions would allow for standardisation. Nuffield’s Cromwell, like the Crusader didn’t have the capacity to be improved upon, unlike the Victor that was designed with a powerful enough engine to up-gun and increase armour on it.

So they are finally driving a stake through the heart of the Liberty?

 

[MattII]

And the Crusader is finally killed off, shame about the Cromwell though but it makes sense to standardize on a successful and proven tank instead of having multiple types.

The Cromwell offers nothing much the Valiant* wasn't already delivering, except perhaps a slightly better top speed.

Well Lord Nuffield Org shot itself in the foot with its insistent on the Liberty Engine however good to see a rationalisation on the Victor this is as major boost to the war effort and will save resources.

Yep, that will speed up the British a lot.

I suppose what I've killed off is not the Cromwell (that is a bit more of the Victor with the Rolls Royce Meteor), but the OTL Cavalier and Centaur. The Cromwell name was given to all three initially as A24 Cromwell 1 (Nuffield which became the Cavalier), A24L, Cromwell 2 (Leyland which became Centaur) and A24 M, ( M for Meteor, from Birmingham Rail) Cromwell 3, which we know was the first half-decent British tank of the second part of the war. By cancelling the Cavalier and Centaur, we are able to build ~1400 Victors.

Mm, I still say the Victor is more Comet than Cromwell. the Cromwell was limited to a 6-pounder/75mm gun, the Victor is carrying a 75mm HV, and could presumably carry something more powerful with a bit of work.

 

[focus9912]

Well, the march of standardization of tanks of the Commonwealth Army will keep marching on, even if the producer of said tanks, especially would be resistant to the measure. Meanwhile, the Germans could have the potential to go to the opposite direction depending on the reaction to the tanks that the German encountered.

Though Lord Nuffield will probably blow a gasket and I expect he will assume this is an attack by Beaverbrook on him and his intrests.

Meanwhile, I would like to ask the others (to hopefully not just talking about guns, and perhaps I would be the one that create the spinoff thread, depending on the OPs permission and perhaps asking the mods on which subforum (probably the offtopic subforum) perhaps to put the aforementioned thread.../s), considering currently OTL that it seems that the ministries is currently having quite a shuffle in regards to war production for some reasons, with Beaverbrook being appointed Minister of War Production in early of February, and then immediately leave the cabinet due to disagreements on more things than I was first expected.

The point is, is Beaverbrook is actually already on the way out like IOTL, or not?