Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

Needs a bit more armour than even the late-war amtanks, so probably too heavy to swim - but I like the way you think.
actually in the Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles thread, Claymore once made a drawing for me of a lvt with a british turret with a 75mm gun (the AEC III turret)

lvt-a-1b-png.694919
 
Re: BMD-4 as template...

Was thinking in calm coastal areas you could show up with own infantry support in enemy's rear, cutting the enemy's limited lines of support and communications. Also would work for river crossings where no bridges.

So BMD's would be "pointy tip of spear" with primary infantry support following in small coastal boats. So the primary tactic would be to get behind them, pin, squeeze and then pound with artillery (and/or mortars).
 
Imagine that but with a troop of Matilder II's added to the comonwealth forces....

And some basic familiarisation with tanks for the infantry
Any 2 pounder gun tank of the day would have likely, if not changed the fortunes of that battle certainly saved the 2 Brigades from such heavy losses

The radios alone would have allowed for a superior level of communication

Matilda II would be like a Tiger tank to those Japanese Tankers

Interesting what effect the 25 pounders (or possibly 18 pounders?) had on those Japanese tanks that crossed the slim river destroying the lead tank and killing the crew
 
Jumbuck Tank?
Does this mean the Royal Australian Tank Regiment's official march is Waltzing Matilda?
Not a chance. The Jumbuck got stuffed in the Jolly Swagman's Tucker Bag to be eaten later. Also the Jolly Swagman was a coward who hid in a ditch (and drowned) rather than fight the troopers.
 
Last edited:
**** INBOUND RANT **** NO OFFENSE INTENDED **** INTENDED TARGET ARE THE MORONS OF A 100 YEARS AGO ****

I have NEVER understood why a tank designed for infantry support would be fitted with a gun that had no practical HE round. And a 40mm main gun was a step backward, although a 40mm auto-cannon might have made some sense. But the WW1 tanks had 3" guns, which meant they had the damn technology, so WHY didn't they build the damn tanks with a 3"/75mm-ish main gun (in a turret, NOT a sponson), and issue both high velocity AP rounds and lower velocity HE rounds. If they had, then they would have had a tank capable of actually supporting the damn infantry against tanks, entrenched positions, bunkers and artillery. And screw the "but our rail network won't allow a wider turret ring" argument. There was a depression on. Spend some damn money, stimulate the economy, employ some navvies & upgrade that damned rail network.

Back to the thread:

As for the arguments that the 2 pounder is/was all that was needed to kill Japanese tanks, and that anything else was overkill... who effing cares? I don't, and for two very good reasons.

1) In war, overkill is a good thing.
2) The Japanese built extremely effective bunkers (as did the Germans). As mentioned above, I want a tank that can also smash bunkers and trenches apart to make life easier for the infantry. A solid shot 2lbs AP round ain't doing shit against those, and neither is a 40mm HE round that is basically a grenade.

**** apologies for the rant. I really needed to get that out of my system. ****
 
**** INBOUND RANT **** NO OFFENSE INTENDED **** INTENDED TARGET ARE THE MORONS OF A 100 YEARS AGO ****

I have NEVER understood why a tank designed for infantry support would be fitted with a gun that had no practical HE round. And a 40mm main gun was a step backward, although a 40mm auto-cannon might have made some sense. But the WW1 tanks had 3" guns, which meant they had the damn technology, so WHY didn't they build the damn tanks with a 3"/75mm-ish main gun (in a turret, NOT a sponson), and issue both high velocity AP rounds and lower velocity HE rounds. If they had, then they would have had a tank capable of actually supporting the damn infantry against tanks, entrenched positions, bunkers and artillery. And screw the "but our rail network won't allow a wider turret ring" argument. There was a depression on. Spend some damn money, stimulate the economy, employ some navvies & upgrade that damned rail network.

Back to the thread:

As for the arguments that the 2 pounder is/was all that was needed to kill Japanese tanks, and that anything else was overkill... who effing cares? I don't, and for two very good reasons.

1) In war, overkill is a good thing.
2) The Japanese built extremely effective bunkers (as did the Germans). As mentioned above, I want a tank that can also smash bunkers and trenches apart to make life easier for the infantry. A solid shot 2lbs AP round ain't doing shit against those, and neither is a 40mm HE round that is basically a grenade.

**** apologies for the rant. I really needed to get that out of my system. ****
All this is why when the New Zealand Army got its hands on Valentines it begged, borrowed or stole 3" CS Howitzers intended for Australia's Matilda II's and became the only users of Valentine Close Support tanks. They did well in the Pacific Island campaigns.
 
As for the arguments that the 2 pounder is/was all that was needed to kill Japanese tanks, and that anything else was overkill... who effing cares? I don't, and for two very good reasons.

1) In war, overkill is a good thing.
2) The Japanese built extremely effective bunkers (as did the Germans). As mentioned above, I want a tank that can also smash bunkers and trenches apart to make life easier for the infantry. A solid shot 2lbs AP round ain't doing shit against those, and neither is a 40mm HE round that is basically a grenade.

**** apologies for the rant. I really needed to get that out of my system. ****
1) You can fit for more 2-pounder rounds in a given space than you can larger rounds.
2) you don't need the bunker-killing ability immediately, as you'll be on the defensive for the first six months or so. Also, bunkers aren't terribly mobile, so you don't really need a full-on tank to deal with them, a SPG should do. Ditch the turret, and install a casemated gun in a raised superstructure.
 
1) You can fit for more 2-pounder rounds in a given space than you can larger rounds.
2) you don't need the bunker-killing ability immediately, as you'll be on the defensive for the first six months or so. Also, bunkers aren't terribly mobile, so you don't really need a full-on tank to deal with them, a SPG should do. Ditch the turret, and install a casemated gun in a raised superstructure.
Given that OTL proved that 1) big gun tanks are better than small gun tanks, and that 2) case-mate assault guns, or even CS tanks, are a battlefield dead-end (see also cruiser/infantry tanks), why waste time, effort and money when you can just build a universal tank?
Even back then, your arguments made no sense. They were made, and they were implemented, but they were flawed and got way too many people killed for no damned reason.
 
The 2lb 40 mm high velocity gun was perfect for the infantry AT task.

The 57mm naval gun was a better gun with a useful HE round for the inter war period. The 57mm could be improved easily and if the Naval Nordenfeld gun is to be believed the muzzle Velocity should be over 700m/s. this is sufficent to be a good early war hole puncher.

The French 75 is really the yardstick by which HE capacity should be measured. WW1 57mm guns......WW2 37mm/40mm/47mm/50mm etc. this is going backwards.
 
Given that OTL proved that 1) big gun tanks are better than small gun tanks, and that 2) case-mate assault guns, or even CS tanks, are a battlefield dead-end (see also cruiser/infantry tanks), why waste time, effort and money when you can just build a universal tank?
Even back then, your arguments made no sense. They were made, and they were implemented, but they were flawed and got way too many people killed for no damned reason.
1) You're going up against the Japanese, half their tanks could be holed by HMGs. If you can do the job with a smaller round, you'll (fractionally) reduce your logistics cost.
2) Because no-one (on your side) is producing a hull big enough to fit a turreted 25 pounder or larger?

As for lives being lost, having something like the M7 Priest or Sexton, vs having nothing for dealing with bunkers (because all the good stuff is going to either the buildup in Britain, or is being sent to the Soviets), then I'll take the bodged-together conversions than you very much.

The French 75 is really the yardstick by which HE capacity should be measured. WW1 57mm guns......WW2 37mm/40mm/47mm/50mm etc. this is going backwards.
You know, there's a slight difference between tanks in 1918, and tanks in 1938 right?
 
**** INBOUND RANT **** NO OFFENSE INTENDED **** INTENDED TARGET ARE THE MORONS OF A 100 YEARS AGO ****

I have NEVER understood why a tank designed for infantry support would be fitted with a gun that had no practical HE round. And a 40mm main gun was a step backward, although a 40mm auto-cannon might have made some sense. But the WW1 tanks had 3" guns, which meant they had the damn technology, so WHY didn't they build the damn tanks with a 3"/75mm-ish main gun (in a turret, NOT a sponson), and issue both high velocity AP rounds and lower velocity HE rounds. If they had, then they would have had a tank capable of actually supporting the damn infantry against tanks, entrenched positions, bunkers and artillery. And screw the "but our rail network won't allow a wider turret ring" argument. There was a depression on. Spend some damn money, stimulate the economy, employ some navvies & upgrade that damned rail network.

Back to the thread:

As for the arguments that the 2 pounder is/was all that was needed to kill Japanese tanks, and that anything else was overkill... who effing cares? I don't, and for two very good reasons.

1) In war, overkill is a good thing.
2) The Japanese built extremely effective bunkers (as did the Germans). As mentioned above, I want a tank that can also smash bunkers and trenches apart to make life easier for the infantry. A solid shot 2lbs AP round ain't doing shit against those, and neither is a 40mm HE round that is basically a grenade.

**** apologies for the rant. I really needed to get that out of my system. ****
It was down to doctrine/theology the tank fanatics of the British army believed that tanks were to fight tanks, therefore only needed AT ammunition & it was the job of the artillery to deal with AT guns, strong points, bunkers, etc. Which was also why CS tanks originally were only supplied with smoke rounds as it was their job to put up a screen to allow the gun tanks to withdraw while artillery was called down.
 
I have NEVER understood why a tank designed for infantry support would be fitted with a gun that had no practical HE round. And a 40mm main gun was a step backward, although a 40mm auto-cannon might have made some sense. But the WW1 tanks had 3" guns, which meant they had the damn technology, so WHY didn't they build the damn tanks with a 3"/75mm-ish main gun (in a turret, NOT a sponson), and issue both high velocity AP rounds and lower velocity HE rounds. If they had, then they would have had a tank capable of actually supporting the damn infantry against tanks, entrenched positions, bunkers and artillery. And screw the "but our rail network won't allow a wider turret ring" argument. There was a depression on. Spend some damn money, stimulate the economy, employ some navvies & upgrade that damned rail network.
Totally missing the point. Tank design in the interwar war years was crippled by the great depression , tanks had to be, in the main, cheap , smaller gun meant smaller, cheaper tank. Saying spend more money when you are drowning in debt is pretty stupid. the US lucked out by being able to sell everyone stuff once WWII started otherwise it would have been screwed.
Doctrine , by nearly every one, thought the Gun was just to fight tanks ( all it was effectively used for in WW1) , the Infantry would be dealt with by MG's ( again the lesson from WW1, hence the silly number on some American tanks ), this is partly not wanting to think about advanced trench warfare too much, the scars were great.
There are also practical issues with 3"guns in a turret, to get one with decent dual purpose you end up with a tank, that till the late 30's, is both massive and underpowered due to the engine's not having the power to weight ratio. You do seem to be underestimating the rapid advances in key technologies occurring in the period meaning stuff was going obsolete a few years after it was designed let alone in service ( not as bad with tanks as aircraft but still very painful )
 
Conventional Economic wisdom in the interwar period to deal with depressions and recessions was to cut back on Govt spending, not spend more. The idea of a balanced budget was paramount. It took a long while before Keynesian economics was accepted as even a possible way out and even then there was a huge group of nay-sayers.
And of course, the war to end wars was only a few years in the past, and the League of Nations was going to solve all problems without any military action needed.
And in the UK the ten year rule applied.
 
The 2lb 40 mm high velocity gun was perfect for the infantry AT task.

The 57mm naval gun was a better gun with a useful HE round for the inter war period. The 57mm could be improved easily and if the Naval Nordenfeld gun is to be believed the muzzle Velocity should be over 700m/s. this is sufficent to be a good early war hole puncher.

The French 75 is really the yardstick by which HE capacity should be measured. WW1 57mm guns......WW2 37mm/40mm/47mm/50mm etc. this is going backwards.
Disagree. The Ordinace QF 2-pounder was adequate for only the AT task. A 3"/75mm HV tank gun, with both AT & HE rounds would have been better. They had AA guns available that could have been developed into these. As for the French 75, the Yanks did eventually use that for their tanks.
1) You're going up against the Japanese, half their tanks could be holed by HMGs. If you can do the job with a smaller round, you'll (fractionally) reduce your logistics cost.
2) Because no-one (on your side) is producing a hull big enough to fit a turreted 25 pounder or larger?

As for lives being lost, having something like the M7 Priest or Sexton, vs having nothing for dealing with bunkers (because all the good stuff is going to either the buildup in Britain, or is being sent to the Soviets), then I'll take the bodged-together conversions than you very much.
Again, see my above comments. Build enough tanks with 3" guns during the 1930s and you wouldn't need a bodged together conversion because the 3"/75mm would be standard. The backwards step to 40mm was an idiotic move based on flawed doctrinal thinking.
You know, there's a slight difference between tanks in 1918, and tanks in 1938 right?
Yes, I do. I also know that the 3" guns they used in WW1 were capable of being developed into a far better tank gun than the Ordinace QF 2-pounder.
It was down to doctrine/theology the tank fanatics of the British army believed that tanks were to fight tanks, therefore only needed AT ammunition & it was the job of the artillery to deal with AT guns, strong points, bunkers, etc. Which was also why CS tanks originally were only supplied with smoke rounds as it was their job to put up a screen to allow the gun tanks to withdraw while artillery was called down.
Agree. Flawed doctrine, including using the gunners shoulder to stabilize the gun
Totally missing the point. Tank design in the interwar war years was crippled by the great depression , tanks had to be, in the main, cheap , smaller gun meant smaller, cheaper tank. Saying spend more money when you are drowning in debt is pretty stupid. the US lucked out by being able to sell everyone stuff once WWII started otherwise it would have been screwed.
Not missing the point at all. Bad political & financial decisions, including a combination of a lack of finance, post-war austerity, entrenched conservatism and accepting German trade goods in reparations, resulted in a detrimental loss of capacity in British industrial production. These decisions were compounded by the Great Depression, which was itself made worse by government austerity cuts, which further starved needed funds from both British industry and the military. Austerity policies always worsen an economic crisis. Something along the lines of the US New Deal could have injected much needed cash into the economy, rebuilt degraded infrastructure (such as railways that were too narrow), and allowed the military to modernize earlier. This is because a cash economy requires cash to be in circulation, in order to grow.
There are also practical issues with 3"guns in a turret, to get one with decent dual purpose you end up with a tank, that till the late 30's, is both massive and underpowered due to the engine's not having the power to weight ratio. You do seem to be underestimating the rapid advances in key technologies occurring in the period meaning stuff was going obsolete a few years after it was designed let alone in service ( not as bad with tanks as aircraft but still very painful )
There were engines of suitable power, such as the Napier Lion, that were available for development into a decent tank engine, as mentioned earlier in this thread. The British did not need to limit themselves to such weak, under-powered engines designed to move buses around London. They did so because of flawed doctrine and short-sighted austerity policies.

The British had the technology and resources available to produce a capable universal tank by the late 1930s, but for a lack of political will and a failure to learn the lessons of their own experiments with tank formations.
 
**** INBOUND RANT **** NO OFFENSE INTENDED **** INTENDED TARGET ARE THE MORONS OF A 100 YEARS AGO ****

I have NEVER understood why a tank designed for infantry support would be fitted with a gun that had no practical HE round. And a 40mm main gun was a step backward, although a 40mm auto-cannon might have made some sense. But the WW1 tanks had 3" guns, which meant they had the damn technology, so WHY didn't they build the damn tanks with a 3"/75mm-ish main gun (in a turret, NOT a sponson), and issue both high velocity AP rounds and lower velocity HE rounds. If they had, then they would have had a tank capable of actually supporting the damn infantry against tanks, entrenched positions, bunkers and artillery. And screw the "but our rail network won't allow a wider turret ring" argument. There was a depression on. Spend some damn money, stimulate the economy, employ some navvies & upgrade that damned rail network.

Back to the thread:

As for the arguments that the 2 pounder is/was all that was needed to kill Japanese tanks, and that anything else was overkill... who effing cares? I don't, and for two very good reasons.

1) In war, overkill is a good thing.
2) The Japanese built extremely effective bunkers (as did the Germans). As mentioned above, I want a tank that can also smash bunkers and trenches apart to make life easier for the infantry. A solid shot 2lbs AP round ain't doing shit against those, and neither is a 40mm HE round that is basically a grenade.

**** apologies for the rant. I really needed to get that out of my system. ****
In 1939 the First job of a tank is killing other tanks

That it is also good at other jobs is a bonus

So the 2 pounder was an excellent hole puncher

It was only when tanks designed to fight in NW Europe were used in the desert that the inability to deal with anti tank guns at 2 miles that the lack of HE became an issue.

It is then that the M3 Lee with its 75mm gun came into it’s own as it could engage AT guns at 2 miles

But as important was the combined arms experience that then existed, that had not existed before.

This drove tank armament development through battlefield experience

In the Pacific and SE Asia the tanks of the day would have been better armed with a weapon like the 3.7” mountain gun howitzer with its bloody great big HE shell

But again the Japanese bunkers were not discovered until 1942 at places like Buna Etc where Stuart light tanks had to engage them at point black range

So without the wartime experience driving the need for good HE throwers the pre war expectations were reasonable.
 
For the purposes of the Pacific War, the only need for a tank to protect Australia and New Zealand could be met with a moderately armoured tank (e.g. M3 Ram chassis as Allan as gone for) with a good HE gun. IOTL UK purchased almost a thousand M1897 75mm guns which would have been available in place of the 25 pdrs earlier ITTL.

Wouldn't have provided the same kudos as mounting a 25 pdr on the Ram / Jumbuck but would have done the job. I imagine it would have used the same ammo as the American later 75mm guns as well.

But ITTL as well as OTL the Australians wanted a first rate tank to build rather than a "make-do"
 
The other thing to remember (other than the benefit of hindsight) is that everyone pretty much was doing the same thing. While the B1 bis had a 75mm, it also had the 47mm in the turret. Most French chars had 47mm guns. The mighty Germans had MG armed Pz I, 20mm Pz II, Medium Pz III had a 37mm, only the Pz IV had the short 75mm for infantry support. Their advantage was less in panzers, than having a better idea of how to use them. There is no excuse for the OTL Vickers Matilda I other than it had to be cheap. Likewise the Vickers Mk VI (and V, IV etc), all those cavalry regiments had to be mechanised, and it wasn't too terribly different from the Pz I. To breach the Siegfried Line, the French were developing the FCM Char 2C, and of course the The Old Gang worked on their TOG in the UK. The Soviets tanks, until the KV1 and T34 came along were mostly equipped with 47mm. The Americans biggest gun was 37mm, until the Grant/Lee.
Yes, I understand the rant, part of the reason I'm writing this is to see what could have been done, for the same money, with the same blinkers. Otherwise it was be ASB.
Allan.
 
Top